What Happened?

[Boanerges]

I knew a woman once who was hit on the head with a pack saddle. She and her hubby were fighting while unloading their equipment Hubby was tossing the stuff from the front to the back end and the woman was taking it from there and putting it to the side. Well in his anger he tossed the saddle too hard and in her anger she was not paying attention, and walked right into it.
She was seriously hurt and wound up very disabled. I mean she went from a lovely lady to a drooling hag in no time at all.

She was prayed over many times to be healed but NEVER got that healing. A year later, it was learned that she did not want healing. She wanted to punish her hubby by making him care for her the rest of their lives.
Not a lack of faith. Not a lack of knowledge So you see, we are dealing with humans here, humans that are being interfered with by demons.

Paul the Apostle lacked neither faith nor knowledge but he still had to leave behind Trophimus sick.

 

[The Robster]

Paul the Apostle lacked neither faith nor knowledge but he still had to leave behind Trophimus sick.

Plenty of people don't receive their healing but its not God's fault. God has done everything He's going to do about healing. Too many Christians these days base their ideas on healing based on experience rather than the Word of God. If we had the capacity to examine every case where people didn't receive their healing, I'm sure we would find all kinds of holes in their belief. Also, it can be plain difficult for some people to receive healing through the "prayer of faith." Its a challenge to believe that you received your healing on the spot after asking it, despite not feeling anything physically. But first and foremost, if a person does not believe its God's will to heal them, then its going to be awfully tough to receive healing. You need to believe you can reach out to Jesus and that He will say yes to your healing request. And He sure will. And by all means I hope I'm not giving anyone the impression that its easy to believe for your healing. I've had my own difficulties in the past but in many cases you really need to show patience when it comes to seeing that wholeness manifest. Everyone doesn't get a 24hr or instant miracle just showing up in their body. But it does happen! We have many people who know how to get healed. Follow int he circles of those who know how to get healed and avoid those that say its not for everyone because they base their conclusions on people's experiences rather than the Word.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Paul the Apostle lacked neither faith nor knowledge but he still had to leave behind Trophimus sick.

I don't know Trophimus' story. Maybe he didn't believe for healing. Maybe he wanted the sympathy instead of the healing. Maybe he just wanted to stay in bed.... You'll have to ask him when you get home.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Plenty of people don't receive their healing but its not God's fault. God has done everything He's going to do about healing. Too many Christians these days base their ideas on healing based on experience rather than the Word of God. If we had the capacity to examine every case where people didn't receive their healing, I'm sure we would find all kinds of holes in their belief. Also, it can be plain difficult for some people to receive healing through the "prayer of faith." Its a challenge to believe that you received your healing on the spot after asking it, despite not feeling anything physically. But first and foremost, if a person does not believe its God's will to heal them, then its going to be awfully tough to receive healing. You need to believe you can reach out to Jesus and that He will say yes to your healing request. And He sure will. And by all means I hope I'm not giving anyone the impression that its easy to believe for your healing. I've had my own difficulties in the past but in many cases you really need to show patience when it comes to seeing that wholeness manifest. Everyone doesn't get a 24hr or instant miracle just showing up in their body. But it does happen! We have many people who know how to get healed. Follow int he circles of those who know how to get healed and avoid those that say its not for everyone because they base their conclusions on people's experiences rather than the Word.

Good answer Robster Being human there are too many variables to say why someone does not get healed. A man can believe its the real deal but simply does not want it.

 

[Faith4Bride]

Paul the Apostle lacked neither faith nor knowledge but he still had to leave behind Trophimus sick.

The problem i see with this argument is that firstly we base truth and doctrine on scriptures that declare truth and doctrine. We do not look at the bible and say trophimus was sick so God did not provide healing as a promise in the atonement on the cross because paul didnt lack faith.

That is the same thing as if we said Jesus didnt save by his blood because simon the sorcerer didnt get salvation and the apostles left him.

Bible doctrine is clear that 1)healing is part of Gods covenants 2) Healing was prophesied to be provided by the coming messiah 3) Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of him and provided with his stripes for our healing 4) Jesus healed all that came to him and said he was specifically fulfilling the verses in isaiah about him healing 5) peter specifically says that by his stripes we WERE healed.6)The bible specifically shows us and declares from gen to rev that Gods promises are by faith.7) Jesus tells us more than 2 or 3 times that whatever we ask in His name believing we shall have it.

Now when it comes to trophimus we do not have any information. We do not know who he was, why he was sick, what he was sick with, how long he was sick, just because he was sick doesnt mean he never got healed we are not told that, we do not know if it was a chastening, we do not know if it was a trial of faith that he later overcame, we do not know if he was sick because of persecution he had endured. We do not know- so we cannot use that as a reason to disbelief doctrine.

And paul could have all the faith possible but if the man himself did not have faith, ( or other things) then he may not recieve his healing.

Many times Jesus made it clear when he healed people " be it done unto you according to YOUR FAITH" he didnt say " be it done according to my faith".

We have to be very careful to believe the word of God and the promises of God and the full work of the cross and walk by faith in it. It is never ever ever ok to look at peoplein the bible our outside it and say see they arent healed, see they died, to justify a disbelief in what the bible declares because we do not know what is between God and those people. We do not know their hearts or their faith, we do not know if they doubted, or had unforigiveness or sin we just cant say but we can say what the bible says.

We cannot partake of Gods promises by being double minded and asking and then saying to oursleves " well he could say yes or no" there is no faith there only doublemindedness. All through the word saints partook of the goodness and promise of God by believing that he is faithful who promised and by believing his word and covenant no matter what things in this world looked like.

 

[lioncub]

2C 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2C 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2C 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2C 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

What do make of this ?

 

[Chad]

Amen to all the good stories and edification in this thread! I'm grateful for everyone's humble, Scripturally sound responses here.

May I add some Scripture:

Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment.

Matthew 9:28-29

28When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?"
"Yes, Lord," they replied.

29 Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you";

 

[Faith4Bride]

2C 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2C 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2C 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2C 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

What do make of this ?

I LOVE THIS! the scripture on it is terrific.

Saints are promised healing by the stripes of Jesus because He already provided it on the cross. and sickness comes from sin.

However persecution is something we are promised to endure if we will live godly, and manifest the life of Christ and his glory in us.

The scriptural term for a " thorn in the flesh" was used to israel when they were told to drive their enemies out of their land. any enemies they let remain would become a thorn in their flesh and would cause them troubles.

Pauls thorn was not some form of sickness or illness- pauls thorn is was caused him to be so heavily persecuted everywhere he went being stones, whipped beaten etc.. paul then said
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

This word here " infirmities" is not sicknesses it is the same word he uses to describe all that happens to him as far as persecution and suffering for Christs name.It really just means weakness.

We are promised deliverance from sickness by faith- but we are not promised deliverance from persecutions which is what pauls thorn was for

 

[El Hombre viejo]

2C 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2C 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2C 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2C 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

What do make of this ?

LOL Oh lets not get into that again!! The verse says what the thorn was if its read with open eyes and churchianity lenses off.
The vese says what it was. A messenger of Satan sent to buffet him.....

 

[Boanerges]

I don't know Trophimus' story. Maybe he didn't believe for healing. Maybe he wanted the sympathy instead of the healing. Maybe he just wanted to stay in bed.... You'll have to ask him when you get home.

LOL! What about the dead Paul raised- did they need faith? What about the faith of a few close friends- does that only work in certain cases?

 

[Boanerges]

LOL Oh lets not get into that again!! The verse says what the thorn was if its read with open eyes and churchianity lenses off.
The vese says what it was. A messenger of Satan sent to buffet him.....

Correct- Paul was sick at Satan's design. He had eye problems-
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

LOL! What about the dead Paul raised- did they need faith? What about the faith of a few close friends- does that only work in certain cases?

I'm not sure what your point is Bo. Paul raised them up by faith and in obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit. I wonder what he would have done if the Holy Spirit had not told him to do that? Do you think he would even have tried to do that?

 

[The Robster]

LOL! What about the dead Paul raised- did they need faith? What about the faith of a few close friends- does that only work in certain cases?

Now you're getting into more tricky areas as we are starting to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation. I tend to believe that Paul also had the Gift of Faith operating within him. Many who have raised the dead have this spiritual gift. Study the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are pretty trick.

 

[Faith4Bride]

LOL! What about the dead Paul raised- did they need faith? What about the faith of a few close friends- does that only work in certain cases?

The word of God is clear that we must believe. If the dead are raised they are not alive to believe but you are switching doctrines and situations to make a point and that does not work. Jesus told us over and over that our healing, deliverance, and faith are by our faith- not the faith of the one it He is working through only. If we want to believe the word of God we need to look at what it says and not keep looking at differnt doctrines and saying see!

The bible says " be it done unto you according to your faith"- It also says that in Jesus home town he could NOT DO MANY MIRACLES BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF.-

So if the LORD CREATOR GOD himself could not do certain miracles because of the unbelief of the people who needed those miracles, is it not the same for us?

Correct- Paul was sick at Satan's design. He had eye problems-
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

I am sorry this is opinion and not scripture. The bible does not say that Paul had an eye problem that is assumed because paul said that he wrote something with his own hand. The context itself tells us what he is referring to- His persecutions in christ is what the chapter says.

The context of the whole bible perfect defines the meaning of a " thorn in the flesh" so to subtract the scriptural meaning of the term to make it an eye problem is faulty and has an agenda behind it in whoever first created that doctrine.

Also it was a messenger of satan to be a thorn in his flesh and it was NOT satans design! it was GOD who gave it to paul lest he be exalted beyond measure.


A good question to ask ourselves is " why do i want to believe that healing is not promised. why do i want to find excuses and examples against this promise".

 

[The Robster]

I am sorry this is opinion and not scripture. The bible does not say that Paul had an eye problem that is assumed because paul said that he wrote something with his own hand. The context itself tells us what he is referring to- His persecutions in christ is what the chapter says.

The context of the whole bible perfect defines the meaning of a " thorn in the flesh" so to subtract the scriptural meaning of the term to make it an eye problem is faulty and has an agenda behind it in whoever first created that doctrine.

Also it was a messenger of satan to be a thorn in his flesh and it was NOT satans design! it was GOD who gave it to paul lest he be exalted beyond measure.


A good question to ask ourselves is " why do i want to believe that healing is not promised. why do i want to find excuses and examples against this promise".

+1 Its amazing to me how many commentaries I've read about Paul's thorn and how everyone has come up with so many "diseases" for it yet not once in scripture is this "thorn" identified as being a disease, rather an annoying messenger from the devil that was clearly giving him problems. The "thorn in the flesh" figure of speech, has been used several times in the OT. People in the 21st century don't seem to be able to identify figures of speech in the Bible.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

+1 Its amazing to me how many commentaries I've read about Paul's thorn and how everyone has come up with so many "diseases" for it yet not once in scripture is this "thorn" identified as being a disease, rather an annoying messenger from the devil that was clearly giving him problems. The "thorn in the flesh" figure of speech, has been used several times in the OT. People in the 21st century don't seem to be able to identify figures of speech in the Bible.

Hey! That was my line.

 

[The Robster]

Hey! That was my line.

Whoops, missed that brother. I'm riding your thunder.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Whoops, missed that brother. I'm riding your thunder.

Ah well It has two saddles You can fill one

 

[Faith4Bride]

I think that people just dont know.

Almost everything(if not everthing) spoken in the NT can be found in the OT but people read commentaries or hear a preacher preach on it and they do not use any scriptures to prove their point they say well paul makes it a point to say he penned the letter himself because he had a eye problem which was common in that day etc etc etc.. all stuff the bible doesnt say but it makes for a seeming good reason until you actually search the scriptures to truly understand it.

When I read the OT or the NT and i read something that is the same or very similar to something else i have read i go and search both places out and mark them together so they they can be looked at to see if they are connected. But it takes time. If you dont do this in some form it is easy to decide what " makes sence" to you as you read but then you are prob gonna be wrong then when others do the same and all agree it seems like because everyone has the same agrument(like eye problems) that it is the right thing but still no scriptural backing.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

they say well paul makes it a point to say he penned the letter himself because he had a eye problem which was common in that day etc etc etc.. all stuff the bible doesnt say but it makes for a seeming good reason until you actually search the scriptures to truly understand it.

Paul's reference to writing the letter in his own hand is 1 Cor 16:21, in the final chapter in that letter. The introductory notes for that letter in my Study Bible say that it was written in Ephesus where he was residing at the time. Four of Paul's letters (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians and Philemon) were written from prison. Being in chains in prison and not having writing utensils with him is what probably caused him to dictate those letters to visitors. Perhaps making the point that he had written 1 Corinthians himself was Paul's way of celebrtating the fact that he wasn't in some miserable jail at the time.

SLE