RJ
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I was answering Sickz question:
Shouldn't they have already and always been subject unto him?
I am not sure what you are talking about?
The Trinity...Biblical or NOT ???
- Thread starter Donnie Ducati
- Start date
I was answering Sickz question:
Shouldn't they have already and always been subject unto him?
I am not sure what you are talking about?
Jesus came as a little baby !without knowledge or understanding!He was taught by the Spirit of truth as we should be!
But He was some what different? He was without Sin ! He came this way to be the Perfect example for all mankind! He had to over come all things
He was tested and tried as we are!
Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
He needed milk from His mother! He had to learn to crawl and walk and talk , like any of US!
Jesus lived a very sad life! No one could understand the things He said and did!
Until after His death!When they got the Spirit of truth !
Luk_2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk_10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
But He was some what different? He was without Sin ! He came this way to be the Perfect example for all mankind! He had to over come all things
He was tested and tried as we are!
Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
He needed milk from His mother! He had to learn to crawl and walk and talk , like any of US!
Jesus lived a very sad life! No one could understand the things He said and did!
Until after His death!When they got the Spirit of truth !
Luk_2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk_10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Stickz
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"Tag-team mate"? That's kinda humorous, RJ. Best that I can tell, I don't really view the Godhead the way that Eccl12v13 seems to either. Just because you know that I don't agree with your view doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be on his side because he isn't agreeing with you either. There are a variety of ways that one can interpret different things from scripture. Eccl12v13 seems—to me, anyway—to believe in a polytheistic Trinity, where you are monotheistic.
Anyway, I don't really see what you are talking about with your response. The verses that I posted from Peter were referring to Jesus after his ascension, after he was no longer human/flesh. The verses that you posted from Hebrews and Psalms were referring to his being made human. I Peter 3:23 makes it sound as though the angels, authorities, and powers were not subject unto him before, but now they are.
I Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. This is, of course, after his ascension and has nothing to do with his being human.
I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
I Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
I Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him.
I Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
If I make it to Heaven, I am expecting ( at this present time, anyway, because this is what makes sense to me right now ) to see two entirely separate beings, with one ( the Son ) finishing things by becoming subject to the one that is greater than he ( the Father ). Notice also that the Holy Ghost is not mentioned at all in these verses.
Anyway, I don't really see what you are talking about with your response. The verses that I posted from Peter were referring to Jesus after his ascension, after he was no longer human/flesh. The verses that you posted from Hebrews and Psalms were referring to his being made human. I Peter 3:23 makes it sound as though the angels, authorities, and powers were not subject unto him before, but now they are.
I Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. This is, of course, after his ascension and has nothing to do with his being human.
I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
I Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
I Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him.
I Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
If I make it to Heaven, I am expecting ( at this present time, anyway, because this is what makes sense to me right now ) to see two entirely separate beings, with one ( the Son ) finishing things by becoming subject to the one that is greater than he ( the Father ). Notice also that the Holy Ghost is not mentioned at all in these verses.
Not our works ,to get to heaven [NEW JERUSALEM} it What HE DID1 we just accept His works as TRUTh and Him into our heart as LORD!
plus We Meet Him in the air! He does not come back to the earth first ! First He calls us up then the great tribulation then we return with Him to rule 1000 years, thank you LORD JESUS!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We do not works
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
plus We Meet Him in the air! He does not come back to the earth first ! First He calls us up then the great tribulation then we return with Him to rule 1000 years, thank you LORD JESUS!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We do not works
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
Donnie Ducati
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It must rip at the Heart of God that his own children can't even agree on His own nature.
Just sad.
Just sad.
Donnie Ducati
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1. There is only one God. This is the consistent emphasis of Scripture (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 44:6; John 5:44; 1 Cor. 8:4; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19).
2. The Father is God. The Father is explicitly called “God” throughout Scripture (John 6:27; Rom. 1:7; Gal. 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:2).
3. Jesus is God. Jesus is explicitly called “God” (Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8), and He (Jesus) claimed to be “the first and the last” the precise name God used of Himself in Isaiah 44:6. The divine names “Yahweh” and “Elohim” are used in reference to the Messiah who is Jesus (Isa. 9:6; 40:3; cf. John 8:58 and Exod. 3:14). He performs works that only God can do, such as creating the universe (Col. 1:16; cf. Isa. 44:24).
4. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is the “Spirit of God” (Gen. 1:2; Exod. 31:3; Ezek. 11:24; Rom. 8:9, 14; 1 John 4:2) and possesses the attributes of deity, including omnipresence (Ps. 139:7‑9), omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10–11), and eternity (Heb. 9:14). He does things that only God can do, such as participating in the creation of the universe (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30), begetting Christ in Mary’s womb (Luke 1:35), resurrecting Christ (Rom. 8:11), and inspiring Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).
5. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are persons. The Bible does not explicitly identify them as persons, but it is reasonable to infer that they are persons based on explicit affirmations in Scripture. The Father engages in personal relations (John 3:35), and has the attributes of personality: intellect (Matt. 6:8), emotions (Gen. 6:6; Ps. 86:15), and will (Matt. 12:50). The Son engages in personal relations (John 11:41–42), and has the attributes of personality: intellect (John 2:24–25), emotions (Matt. 9:36; John 11:35), and will (Luke 22:42). The Holy Spirit engages in personal relations and has the attributes of personality: intellect (Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10–11), emotions (Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30), and will (1 Cor. 12:11). The personality of each of the three is therefore implied in Scripture.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other. The Father and the Son know each other (Matt. 11:27), love each other (John 3:35), and speak to each other (John 11:41–42). The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at His baptism (Luke 3:22), is called another comforter (John 14:16), was sent by the Father and Jesus (John 15:26), and seeks to glorify Jesus (John 16:13–14).
2. The Father is God. The Father is explicitly called “God” throughout Scripture (John 6:27; Rom. 1:7; Gal. 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:2).
3. Jesus is God. Jesus is explicitly called “God” (Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8), and He (Jesus) claimed to be “the first and the last” the precise name God used of Himself in Isaiah 44:6. The divine names “Yahweh” and “Elohim” are used in reference to the Messiah who is Jesus (Isa. 9:6; 40:3; cf. John 8:58 and Exod. 3:14). He performs works that only God can do, such as creating the universe (Col. 1:16; cf. Isa. 44:24).
4. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is the “Spirit of God” (Gen. 1:2; Exod. 31:3; Ezek. 11:24; Rom. 8:9, 14; 1 John 4:2) and possesses the attributes of deity, including omnipresence (Ps. 139:7‑9), omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10–11), and eternity (Heb. 9:14). He does things that only God can do, such as participating in the creation of the universe (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30), begetting Christ in Mary’s womb (Luke 1:35), resurrecting Christ (Rom. 8:11), and inspiring Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).
5. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are persons. The Bible does not explicitly identify them as persons, but it is reasonable to infer that they are persons based on explicit affirmations in Scripture. The Father engages in personal relations (John 3:35), and has the attributes of personality: intellect (Matt. 6:8), emotions (Gen. 6:6; Ps. 86:15), and will (Matt. 12:50). The Son engages in personal relations (John 11:41–42), and has the attributes of personality: intellect (John 2:24–25), emotions (Matt. 9:36; John 11:35), and will (Luke 22:42). The Holy Spirit engages in personal relations and has the attributes of personality: intellect (Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10–11), emotions (Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30), and will (1 Cor. 12:11). The personality of each of the three is therefore implied in Scripture.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other. The Father and the Son know each other (Matt. 11:27), love each other (John 3:35), and speak to each other (John 11:41–42). The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at His baptism (Luke 3:22), is called another comforter (John 14:16), was sent by the Father and Jesus (John 15:26), and seeks to glorify Jesus (John 16:13–14).
Jehovah's Witness?
GODS ONE being Not three beings! There Are NOT THREE GODS!
We are MADE in HIS image! What Are WE! Just One person with three parts!
A car has many parts !But Just one car!
1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh_16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee,
Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
We are MADE in HIS image! What Are WE! Just One person with three parts!
A car has many parts !But Just one car!
1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh_16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee,
Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
CitizenIreland
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- Apr 11, 2008
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- 32
Well spotted duckey. I talk with JWs on a daily basis and they are tricky characters. JWism looks so innocent on the outside. But it is straight from the pit of hell. Their jesus that they have made from perverting Holy Scripture cannot be found in the Holy Bible. Their NWT has been changed and perverted throughout, it no longer resembles the Bible. Jesus is God. There is no mistake about this. He tells us so Himself out of His own mouth in Rev. 1 verses 8, 11, 17 and 18. Rev. 21 v 6 and Rev. 22 v13. Many more verses in Scripture hint of the Godhead. Zec 12:10 and 1 John 5:7 KJV to name a couple. Be blessed all, me.
No! Just one that read the ONLY explanation in the entire bible of how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one.
Now this is the ONLY explanation in ALL of God's word that explains how, not only the (3) are one, but how ALL that have the same message are one. And this comes from Jesus Himself. How anyone could come up with some other doctrine not found in God’s word is beyond me….but leave it up to man to come up with the ‘mystery’! Let’s read what Jesus tells us plain and clear;
Let's study the following scripture and let the bible, not a man made doctrine, explain it;
1John.5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Just how are they all one? Let's read how Jesus Christ explains it to us;
John.17
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
We see from reading above Jesus (God) SHARING the Glory with the Father (God), even before the world. No mention of any other God; just God the Father AND God the Son. Let's continue;
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
So the Son is ONE with the Father AND all those that the Father has given the Son are ALSO ONE! So we too are ONE with God! But how? Let's read more. Let's see at what point Jesus mentions God the Holy Ghost.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
So the ones that God sent to Jesus are separated, or sanctified, by His word, the Holy scriptures. Let's read who else is sanctified by the word and made ONE with God;
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
So now we read that EVERYONE that believes in the word/scriptures and brings the SAME message are ONE, just as the Father and the Son are ONE!
Now let's read who brings the message of God;
John.14
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John.15
[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
And where did the Comforter receive the truth that he heard? From Jesus. Let’s read it…
John 6
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
God the Father give His message to God the Son, who then speaks the SAME message to the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit speaks that SAME message to man, who then writes it down for all of mankind.
So the Comforter, also called the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, brings ONLY what was given to him. So if the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth brings the same message, he too is ONE with everyone that does the same.
So now when we read the following, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." it is much clearer.
This scripture IS NOT saying all (3) form into one, or that the Father is from one dispensation and the Son and the Holy Spirit from another. Nor does it mention anything about them being of the same substance or any nonsense like that. Nor is it a "Mystery" of faith!
The scripture simply means that EACH one of them, ALL (3) separate entities, have and bring the SAME message.
That is why it is possible for you to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and not the Father or Son!
That is why the Father can know the time and the hour, but NOT the Holy Spirit or the Son!
That is why Son will judge and NOT the Father and the Holy Ghost!
Because they are all individual entities; God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit/angel of God, not A God!
Now this makes sense! There is no mystery……
Now if you can find other scriptures that EXPLAIN, not SAY, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one please share it with the readers. For we know there are scriptures that SAY they are one, but those scriptures do not say HOW they are one!
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Let’s search, study and read what the word of God to see what it says about spirits and angels.
Heb.1
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
So we know for a fact that angels are SPIRITS! And there are only TWO types of spirits; 'holy spirits' and 'evil spirits'
Again it states;
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
And which angels are ministering spirits doing the work of the Lord? ALL of then, whether they are called ‘Holy‘ or ‘Evil‘, ALL spirits do the will of the Lord! Now that we know that ALL angels are spirits let's read when an angel was called a "Holy Spirit"
Exod.13
[18] But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
Even though the verse said it was God that led the people, we will now find out that God gives His 'holy spirits' all authority as Himself in certain situations. Now let's read this same event told later in the book of Isa.
Isa.63
[9] In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
So we find it was 'the angel of his presence' at work. Now let's read what the angel was called;
[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
WHO did the nation of Israel vex? God's 'holy Spirit'! And what was it called? An 'Angel'.
Let's read what else the angle/holy spirit did while working with the authority of God;
[11] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
[12] That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
[13] That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
So the period of time being spoken of here is when the Angel of the Lord, a HOLY SPIRIT, looked over and protected the nation of Israel while they were in the wilderness.
Now let's go back to Exod. to confirm this same event that was told in Isa.
Exod.23
[20] Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
So who was it really that protected Israel? God's "Holy Spirit", an Holy Angel! Let's continue;
[21] Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
So this "Holy Angel" had the authority of God to punish as he saw fit. Why? Because he was working under the name of God. He was working with the authority given to him by God. Now was this holy spirit only allowed to punish?
[22] But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
[23] For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
No! God’s holy spirit also had the authority to reward as he saw fit.
So now we see that the Holy Spirit spoken of in Isa. was actually one of God's Holy Angels.
Let's look at two more places where an Angel, also known as a 'holy spirit' was either called God, or acted or spoke with the authority of God;
Num.22
[35] And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Now let’s read who Balaam said gave him the words to speak;
[38] And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
Even though it was the angel of the Lord gave Balaam the words to say, Balaam said it was God that put the words in his mouth. Let’s read another;
Judg.2
[1] And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
Again, the angel, a 'Holy Spirit' is talking as though he was the one that made the covenant, though we know it was really the Lord, the angel still spoke as if it were he that made the agreement with the nation of Israel.
When reading God's word you will find many places where the angel of the Lord, God’s ’holy spirit’, speaks and works as though he is the Lord. You will find throughout the scriptures many times when the Lord gives His "Holy Spirits" the same power and authority as Himself.
Now that we have done some research and studied God’s word and have learned how angels (God’s holy spirits) are sometimes called God and even act with all of the authority and power of God, let’s go to the ONLY place in the whole bible where it may appear the Holy Spirit is called God.
Acts 5
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Based upon researching and studying God's word, it is clear that the Holy Spirit spoken of above was just that; a Holy Angel speaking, rewarding AND punishing with all of the authority of God. Peter said they lied to the Holy Ghost, then said they lied to God. How can this be?
Just as God gave His "Holy Spirit" authority in the past, even to say, "my name is in him", and to be called God, He did the same thing here with Peter.
God has an order in which He gives His word; God the Father gives His message to God the Son. God the Son gives that SAME message to the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth/Comforter. And the Holy Spirit gives that SAME message to man. Thus, all that bring the same message or ONE.
Just as God’s word says here;
1John.5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
How did Jesus explain that they are one. They are one because that ALL, all (3) have and bring the same message.
And here……
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
God gave His message to the Son. The Son gave the same message to the Holy Angel. The Holy Angel gave that same message to the men of God.
And now we, all one, give the same message to the world…..
“….that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe…….”
There are many verses that SAY the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. But there is ONLY one place in ALL of the bible, Gen. to Rev. that explains HOW they are one.
And that one place is John 17, told to us by Jesus Himself.
.
.
Heb.1
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
So we know for a fact that angels are SPIRITS! And there are only TWO types of spirits; 'holy spirits' and 'evil spirits'
Again it states;
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
And which angels are ministering spirits doing the work of the Lord? ALL of then, whether they are called ‘Holy‘ or ‘Evil‘, ALL spirits do the will of the Lord! Now that we know that ALL angels are spirits let's read when an angel was called a "Holy Spirit"
Exod.13
[18] But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
Even though the verse said it was God that led the people, we will now find out that God gives His 'holy spirits' all authority as Himself in certain situations. Now let's read this same event told later in the book of Isa.
Isa.63
[9] In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
So we find it was 'the angel of his presence' at work. Now let's read what the angel was called;
[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
WHO did the nation of Israel vex? God's 'holy Spirit'! And what was it called? An 'Angel'.
Let's read what else the angle/holy spirit did while working with the authority of God;
[11] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
[12] That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
[13] That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
So the period of time being spoken of here is when the Angel of the Lord, a HOLY SPIRIT, looked over and protected the nation of Israel while they were in the wilderness.
Now let's go back to Exod. to confirm this same event that was told in Isa.
Exod.23
[20] Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
So who was it really that protected Israel? God's "Holy Spirit", an Holy Angel! Let's continue;
[21] Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
So this "Holy Angel" had the authority of God to punish as he saw fit. Why? Because he was working under the name of God. He was working with the authority given to him by God. Now was this holy spirit only allowed to punish?
[22] But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
[23] For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
No! God’s holy spirit also had the authority to reward as he saw fit.
So now we see that the Holy Spirit spoken of in Isa. was actually one of God's Holy Angels.
Let's look at two more places where an Angel, also known as a 'holy spirit' was either called God, or acted or spoke with the authority of God;
Num.22
[35] And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Now let’s read who Balaam said gave him the words to speak;
[38] And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
Even though it was the angel of the Lord gave Balaam the words to say, Balaam said it was God that put the words in his mouth. Let’s read another;
Judg.2
[1] And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
Again, the angel, a 'Holy Spirit' is talking as though he was the one that made the covenant, though we know it was really the Lord, the angel still spoke as if it were he that made the agreement with the nation of Israel.
When reading God's word you will find many places where the angel of the Lord, God’s ’holy spirit’, speaks and works as though he is the Lord. You will find throughout the scriptures many times when the Lord gives His "Holy Spirits" the same power and authority as Himself.
Now that we have done some research and studied God’s word and have learned how angels (God’s holy spirits) are sometimes called God and even act with all of the authority and power of God, let’s go to the ONLY place in the whole bible where it may appear the Holy Spirit is called God.
Acts 5
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Based upon researching and studying God's word, it is clear that the Holy Spirit spoken of above was just that; a Holy Angel speaking, rewarding AND punishing with all of the authority of God. Peter said they lied to the Holy Ghost, then said they lied to God. How can this be?
Just as God gave His "Holy Spirit" authority in the past, even to say, "my name is in him", and to be called God, He did the same thing here with Peter.
God has an order in which He gives His word; God the Father gives His message to God the Son. God the Son gives that SAME message to the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth/Comforter. And the Holy Spirit gives that SAME message to man. Thus, all that bring the same message or ONE.
Just as God’s word says here;
1John.5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
How did Jesus explain that they are one. They are one because that ALL, all (3) have and bring the same message.
And here……
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
God gave His message to the Son. The Son gave the same message to the Holy Angel. The Holy Angel gave that same message to the men of God.
And now we, all one, give the same message to the world…..
“….that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe…….”
There are many verses that SAY the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. But there is ONLY one place in ALL of the bible, Gen. to Rev. that explains HOW they are one.
And that one place is John 17, told to us by Jesus Himself.
.
.
Halo.
I was reading the posts and I thought I was reading
a JW's posts. The approach to the interpretation of
the scripture is very similar.
A JW will deny that Jesus is God.
But, Eccl12v13 has denied being a JW.
Now, this is becoming more interesting?
I was reading the posts and I thought I was reading
a JW's posts. The approach to the interpretation of
the scripture is very similar.
A JW will deny that Jesus is God.
But, Eccl12v13 has denied being a JW.
Now, this is becoming more interesting?
All scripture is truth! Get All about a subject and see How It all comes together to form the Truth ! because it does!
We never dump some scriptures for others!
Of course the Spiritual ,deeper trues are Only Revealed by the Spirit of Truth!
Many are tricked by there carnal thinking or others who taught them!
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
God gave us a Part of HIS being !So we could learn and have the correct understanding!
following religions and cults and other on the earth will not give us the understanding we Need!
We could go no farther than the person or religion or group we are following!
Our Relationship has Nothing to do with others! It is between Our Creator as Father and Us as his chosen holy children of GOD! Though the living word , Jesus Christ !
Thank you Father GOD!
We never dump some scriptures for others!
Of course the Spiritual ,deeper trues are Only Revealed by the Spirit of Truth!
Many are tricked by there carnal thinking or others who taught them!
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
God gave us a Part of HIS being !So we could learn and have the correct understanding!
following religions and cults and other on the earth will not give us the understanding we Need!
We could go no farther than the person or religion or group we are following!
Our Relationship has Nothing to do with others! It is between Our Creator as Father and Us as his chosen holy children of GOD! Though the living word , Jesus Christ !
Thank you Father GOD!
Not only is Jesus God...Jesus is the ONLY God man has ever had any dealings with.
Let's look at the facts of the bible;
Col.1
(6) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
Heb.1
(1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Eph.3
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
So who was it that made everything that was made?
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The one that became flesh and lived with man; the Word, Jesus Christ. Let's continue to prove this;
Exd. 13
21. And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to
lead them the way; and by night a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
22. He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day nor the pillar of
fire by night, from before the people.
Now let's read WHO it was that Paul said this was;
Cor. 10
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how
that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4.And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
So we have Jesus as the one that created everything that was created AND it was Jesus that fed the nation of Israel spiritual food in the wilderness. Now let's read what Jesus Himself said....
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Note: Jesus did NOT say no one has seen or heard God, but no one has seen or heard God the Father. Now we know for a fact that at least 70 people saw the shape of God in the OT;
Exd 24
9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
So if it was Jesus, who is God, that made the worlds and fed the nation of Israel spiritual food, BUT no one has seen God the Father, then which God was it that the 70 elders of Israel saw?
It had to be Jesus Christ. Now let's prove this. Let's read a conversation Moses had with the God of the OT;
Gen. 18
24. Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25. That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Now let's read who will and who will NOT be the judge of the world....
St. John 5
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
judgement unto the Son;
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given unto the Son to have
life in himself.
27. And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.
Again....Jesus tells us that God the Father will NOT be the Judge of man, but has given that authority to His Son, Jesus.
And if this is not enough let's read more.....
Ex. 32
31. And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people
Have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou has written.
33. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Now let's read WHO it will be that blot out names from the books....
Rev 3:5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Let's read in one more place. Let's read of a future event that the God of the OT speaks about....
Zech.12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,….
And who was it that was pierced? Jesus!
Over and over the bible tells us this truth....but few will accept it.
Who was it that created everything? Jesus!
Who was it that fed spiritual food to the nation of Israel? Jesus!
Who will it be that will be the Judge of all the world? Jesus!
Who will it be that will blot names from the books? Jesus!
Looking back on all of those other verses in that bible now makes sense.
So when Jesus said no man has seen or heard God the Father it is because we have not. We have only dealt with the Word!
But then we still have these verses that cannot be forgotten or ignored;
"I and my Father are one."
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
But HOW are they one should be the question. Just saying they are one does NOT tell us HOW they are one.
Well...thank God Jesus left us with an explanation;
John 17
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
So the words that Jesus gave were not His own, but were from the Father.
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[10] And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
So all that are Jesus are also the Father's. How is this possible?
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
So all those that was given to Jesus are one, the SAME as Jesus and the Father are one. So those that are one are NOT made of the same substance; those that are one are so because they ALL have the SAME WORDS that was given to Jesus by the Father.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Again...it's the WORDS that Jesus gave them that makes them one.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And now we see that ANYONE that believes the WORDS that were given are also one, JUST LIKE the Father art in Jesus.
This is Jesus explanation of how He and the Father are one. And what about the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Comforter? Let's read...
John 16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
So the Holy Spirit, will NOT speak anything other than what was given to Him. So He comes with the same message as Jesus. And Jesus came with that SAME message that was given to HIm from HIs Father. So just like He said in John 17, anyone that comes with the same message are ONE! Let's read one more verse;
1 John 5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Well now.....NOW we can see HOW they are one! They are ONE because they are all on one accord; they ALL bring the same message. Let's confirm....
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
So God the Father, gave His message to Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ gave that SAME message by the way of His angel, an Holy Angel/Spirit/Ghost. That angel gave that same message to John. And John wrote was was given to him so that we too could be one with God!
How simple is that!
.
jw.s think JESUS is but a mere Angel! Not the Only beggoten Son of GOD!
Begotten meaning HE Came Ourt Of GOD Himself!
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Joh_3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Eph_1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Begotten meaning HE Came Ourt Of GOD Himself!
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Joh_3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Eph_1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I agree Jesus was the One who manifested Himself to man in the OT. ( It was Abraham who spoke with Jesus before Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed )
....
No one hearing the Father doesn't mean His literal voice. imo
Mat 3:17 NKJV And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Mat 17:5-6 NKJV While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" (6) And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid.
This was the Father's voice.
Possibly hearing the Father's voice, as Jesus said in John 5:37, is synonymous with believing/obeying what the Father said in the context of the unbelieving Jews.
Last edited:
Stickz
Member
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- Sep 9, 2011
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Jehovah's Witnesses also don't believe in eternal Hell fire for those who don't make it to Heaven, and I know that many of you share that belief. Just because someone does or doesn't believe something, one way or another, doesn't necessarily mean that you understand enough about what they believe to categorize them, or sum them up in a certain denomination, or belief system.
For many years, I have had a Jehovah's Witness come to my house, and I speak with him because I do still have questions about certain things. I have found that conversing with people—even people that I know I don't completely agree with—helps me to put things into a different perspective sometimes ( and I try to remain ever-learning ). Even though I find that I do not share their beliefs about everything, I do see certain things the same way that they do. The man that comes to my house ( and, perhaps, he cannot speak for all JW's ) describes the Godhead more closely to the way that I see it than the way that Eccl12v13 seems to see it, and my view of it leans a little more toward Binitarianism ( Bitheism ).
I have found that people who say that they believe in the Trinity don't even seem to understand it in the same way. I think that that ( the confusion among those that claim it ) might be what caused me to seek for a different way to view it that made sense to me. But, if I am going to be sent to Hell for not understanding and believing the doctrine of the Trinity, well, God is God and can do what He chooses.
For those of you that do believe in the Trinity: in Heaven, how many separate beings do you expect to see? how many separate thrones? one? two? three? or some combination?
For many years, I have had a Jehovah's Witness come to my house, and I speak with him because I do still have questions about certain things. I have found that conversing with people—even people that I know I don't completely agree with—helps me to put things into a different perspective sometimes ( and I try to remain ever-learning ). Even though I find that I do not share their beliefs about everything, I do see certain things the same way that they do. The man that comes to my house ( and, perhaps, he cannot speak for all JW's ) describes the Godhead more closely to the way that I see it than the way that Eccl12v13 seems to see it, and my view of it leans a little more toward Binitarianism ( Bitheism ).
I have found that people who say that they believe in the Trinity don't even seem to understand it in the same way. I think that that ( the confusion among those that claim it ) might be what caused me to seek for a different way to view it that made sense to me. But, if I am going to be sent to Hell for not understanding and believing the doctrine of the Trinity, well, God is God and can do what He chooses.
For those of you that do believe in the Trinity: in Heaven, how many separate beings do you expect to see? how many separate thrones? one? two? three? or some combination?
That very true! It takes the Spirit of Truth ,to reveal these deeper trues!
The carnal thinking will never understand! I find the More The LORD reveals to me? The less i am accepted! Still ,I have asked the LORD for more understanding! I find Truth so wonderful!
I am still learning!
I think the only limit is when , We know all our LORD knew as He walked the earth!
1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
We all are going to serve someone!
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself
Listen , i think we all should pray for a LOVE of the TRUTH !
If we truly LOVE truth? We will always be seeking it and I know we All would grow greater in understanding and Love for others!
2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Just my understanding .No has to accept it of course!
The carnal thinking will never understand! I find the More The LORD reveals to me? The less i am accepted! Still ,I have asked the LORD for more understanding! I find Truth so wonderful!
I am still learning!
I think the only limit is when , We know all our LORD knew as He walked the earth!
1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
We all are going to serve someone!
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself
Listen , i think we all should pray for a LOVE of the TRUTH !
If we truly LOVE truth? We will always be seeking it and I know we All would grow greater in understanding and Love for others!
2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Just my understanding .No has to accept it of course!
I am not settled on the issue myself but have enjoyed reading this thread. I have a lot of questions. Some of which are:
If the Holy Spirit (referred to as singular in scripture) is an angel, how does he indwell so many different Christians at once? As well as teach them all the truth at once.
Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and given power. Two things he did not have before his baptism. God as man was indwelt by an angel? And received his power from his own creation?
And if all things were created by Jesus who is supposedly just 'a' God then why is he referred to as Gods spirit by Job? "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens;".
Is the 'genitive' used in revelation 'of God' for seven spirits of God 'objective' or 'subjective'? How do you come to such a conclusion? Understood one way they are seven spirits that God created. The other way they are actually of his essence and part of him.
A spirit 'of God' can be understood to be either something that is part of him or something that he created. Here in lies the difficulty. Is there a spirit which is of him meaning part of him (3 person trinity) or are all spirits created by him and therefore Father and Son only as God or Gods?
Why worship the Holy Spirit if he is just a creation? Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit?
It is true that God uses created beings called angels to do his work and communicate his words unto humans. But is that who this Holy Spirit is? When God said he would dwell in me and walk in me, he meant that he would have an angel do it in his stead (2 Cor 6:16)?
So if I am the temple of God, it isn't really God who indwells me through his Holy Spirit but just some angel he created?
Then God will not actually be dwelling with his creation in the new Jerusalem, but merely some other creation of his acting on his behalf?
I must admit God hasn't been expressly clear in the scriptures as far as a finite being like me understands but he does seem to lean toward the idea that if the Holy Spirit isn't an actual third person of a trinity, he is at least part of his very substance as God.
If he is part of a Trinity, then where did he come from? Jesus was the only begotten of the Father. If he wasn't begotten and he is God then he could not have been made. Where did he come from? (jn 15:26)
ἐκπορεύεται translated proceedeth
In Jesus dwelt the fullness of the Godhead (divinity) bodily. The Holy Spirit being the connection between the Father who was still in the form of God and the Son who was now in the form of a man.
Does the Holy Spirit have to be a separate person for scripture to work? No. Can the Holy Spirit be a separate person of a trinity and scripture still work? Yes.
My personal consensus so far is that due to a lack of ability for my finite mind to understand an infinite God, I probably wont be able to come to a definite answer to this conundrum in this lifetime. But I also don't feel that it is absolutely necessary.
The real question is are we as brethren trying to edify one another in love or are we simply debating over issues that we think we understand and boasting over our supposed knowledge of? Telling others to go study for yourself instead of just expecting handouts etc? We are told to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Who do you think we are 'showing' ourselves to? God? No, people, as we explain the word of God to them in a simple manner that they can understand and be edified by. Loving one another as Jesus loved us. He never said "Peter! get out your bible and figure it out for yourself. Don't expect me to hand it to ya on a silver platter!".
Brethren lets love one another. If you see error in what I propose then please by all means meditate and pray for the best way that you can help me see from the right perspective. Even Jesus said "you error not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God" and then went on to help them understand there error with an explanation.
In the Love or our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gary
If the Holy Spirit (referred to as singular in scripture) is an angel, how does he indwell so many different Christians at once? As well as teach them all the truth at once.
Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and given power. Two things he did not have before his baptism. God as man was indwelt by an angel? And received his power from his own creation?
And if all things were created by Jesus who is supposedly just 'a' God then why is he referred to as Gods spirit by Job? "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens;".
Is the 'genitive' used in revelation 'of God' for seven spirits of God 'objective' or 'subjective'? How do you come to such a conclusion? Understood one way they are seven spirits that God created. The other way they are actually of his essence and part of him.
A spirit 'of God' can be understood to be either something that is part of him or something that he created. Here in lies the difficulty. Is there a spirit which is of him meaning part of him (3 person trinity) or are all spirits created by him and therefore Father and Son only as God or Gods?
Why worship the Holy Spirit if he is just a creation? Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit?
It is true that God uses created beings called angels to do his work and communicate his words unto humans. But is that who this Holy Spirit is? When God said he would dwell in me and walk in me, he meant that he would have an angel do it in his stead (2 Cor 6:16)?
So if I am the temple of God, it isn't really God who indwells me through his Holy Spirit but just some angel he created?
Then God will not actually be dwelling with his creation in the new Jerusalem, but merely some other creation of his acting on his behalf?
I must admit God hasn't been expressly clear in the scriptures as far as a finite being like me understands but he does seem to lean toward the idea that if the Holy Spirit isn't an actual third person of a trinity, he is at least part of his very substance as God.
If he is part of a Trinity, then where did he come from? Jesus was the only begotten of the Father. If he wasn't begotten and he is God then he could not have been made. Where did he come from? (jn 15:26)
ἐκπορεύεται translated proceedeth
- to go forth, go out, depart
- metaph.
- to come forth, to issue, to proceed
- of feelings, affections, deeds, sayings
- to flow forth
- of a river
- to project, from the mouth of one
- to spread abroad, of a rumour
- to come forth, to issue, to proceed
- Words that proceed out of the mouth of God
- Word of God is God (Jesus) or at least 'a' God as has been proposed.
- Words that come out of a man
- Words of man proceed out of his heart. They originate there and therefore he is judged for them.
- A devil leaving a man he possessed
- A devil has to enter into a man before he can leave. He is not part of the man.
- People leaving a town
- People have to enter a town before leaving and are not part of the town.
- Food waste leaving the human body
- Food enters the man and waste proceeds out from him. Waste is not part of the man.
- A two edged sword out of Jesus mouth
- It is interesting to see that in this example the word of God proceeds out from the Word of God.
- Lightening and thunders from the throne.
- Lightening and thunders are originating from the throne and proceeding out from it. Is the throne creating them?
- Fire from the mouths of the two witnesses.
- Ok this one I have no real idea as it is unatural.
- The water of life coming from the throne.
- Issuing from the throne. Never had to go into the throne to come out.
In Jesus dwelt the fullness of the Godhead (divinity) bodily. The Holy Spirit being the connection between the Father who was still in the form of God and the Son who was now in the form of a man.
Does the Holy Spirit have to be a separate person for scripture to work? No. Can the Holy Spirit be a separate person of a trinity and scripture still work? Yes.
My personal consensus so far is that due to a lack of ability for my finite mind to understand an infinite God, I probably wont be able to come to a definite answer to this conundrum in this lifetime. But I also don't feel that it is absolutely necessary.
The real question is are we as brethren trying to edify one another in love or are we simply debating over issues that we think we understand and boasting over our supposed knowledge of? Telling others to go study for yourself instead of just expecting handouts etc? We are told to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Who do you think we are 'showing' ourselves to? God? No, people, as we explain the word of God to them in a simple manner that they can understand and be edified by. Loving one another as Jesus loved us. He never said "Peter! get out your bible and figure it out for yourself. Don't expect me to hand it to ya on a silver platter!".
Brethren lets love one another. If you see error in what I propose then please by all means meditate and pray for the best way that you can help me see from the right perspective. Even Jesus said "you error not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God" and then went on to help them understand there error with an explanation.
In the Love or our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gary
Let's answer a little at a time...them maybe some of your other questions may answer themselves.
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
So we have God the Father giving this revelation to Jesus Christ. Jesus sent that same message to John by his angel, in this case, by an Holy Angel. And the bible tells us that John bare record of the word of God. So John bare the words of God and now ALL of the word can read what thus said the Lord. Let's now read what Jesus called His WORDS....
John 6
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Jesus tells us if we eat His flesh and drink His blood that He will dwell in us and we will dwell in Him. Not only will He dwell within us, if we eat His flesh, drink His blood and eat the bread that He gives we will live forever. Well we know this can not be literal, so let's read how Jesus explains it.
[61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So....Jesus was not talking about His flesh, blood and bread...it's His WORDS that are spirit and are life. So if we consume His words they will give life everlasting. But are we to ONLY read His words? Let's find out....
James 1
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
So we cannot just HEAR the words of Jesus, we must do as they tell us. But what about those that did not hear these words from the mouth of Jesus? Is there another way to hear His words?
John 16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
So the spirit of truth/Comforter/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost will come and ONLY speak what was given to him to speak. So the Holy Spirit will speak those same WORDS that was given to him by Jesus, who was given His words by the Father.
And what did Jesus say about His words? They are spirit and life.
And now we can see this all coming together. Let's read what becomes of ALL that have and bring the same message from God.
John 17
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
So the words that was given to the disciples were not the word of Jesus, but were the word that Jesus received from the Father.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
And Jesus pray for ALL that believe in the word that they bring. And what happens to all that receive their word?
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus tells us they ALL may become one.
And let's not forget what did Jesus say will happen if they received His words, or as He said, eat His flesh and drink His blood? "...dwelleth in me, and I in him."
Well now we know how God dwells in Jesus and how Jesus dwells in the Father; Jesus ate and drank those same words that were given to Him by the Father and now the Father dwells in Him and He in the Father. And now BOTH of them are on one accord. But not just with eachother...they are also ONE with ALL that receive and eat and drink those same words.
So this is how God's spirit can dwell in ALL of us at one time. If we eat and drink the words given to us by Jesus and the Holy Spirit we ALL are one with Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Let's try this without scriptures. Let's use that other great gift God gave us......common sense.
Jesus had to learn just as anyone else about God, so we can assume that His learning started at home and later by going to temple. It's is obvious that God gave Him some knowledge, as we know He read and taught in the temple at a very young age.
So when He became the appropriate age the Holy Sprit/Angel/Ghost annoited Him and gave Him what? The message that God the Father had for him to give to Jesus. And as we read above...once that happened, once Jesus had the message of God from the Holy Spirit, they ALL became one; they ALL had the same message.
And just as God gave power to those saints in the OT; to raise from the dead, split the read see, draw water from a rock and will do the same with the two witnesses..so He gave power to His Son.
I pray this helps.
.
