Sanctification vs Justification

[DHC]

@Barny and @DHC

Read Philippians 2:13.

You are *justified* by what Christ did on the Cross. You are Sanctified through life, through trials, experience, by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture is very clear

Philippians 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
What do you think works in you means? Sanctifying us.

Also note what the article quotes on being Sanctified for holy use (set apart). He's using both aspects of past tense and future. That is, it is a life long process either way.

Hello Chad.

Thanks for the post, I do understand what you are saying.

Read the following please.

Matt Slick
Now, there is one more point of clarification. To sanctify also means to set apart for holy use.
Therefore we can have verses that talk about us being sanctified already because God has set
us apart for holy use.

Colossians 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

That is justification and sanctification at the divine level.

At the creation level we personally work out our sanctification.

It appears to be two levels of sanctification does it not?

 

[Barny]

@Barny and @DHC

Read Philippians 2:13.

You are *justified* by what Christ did on the Cross. You are Sanctified through life, through trials, experience, by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture is very clear

Philippians 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
What do you think works in you means? Sanctifying us.

Also note what the article quotes on being Sanctified for holy use (set apart). He's using both aspects of past tense and future. That is, it is a life long process either way.

Hi Chad,

To sanctify means to make holy/sacred.

Scripture confirms that Christians are already sanctified/holy.
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Rom 11:16
if the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root (Christ) is holy, so are the branches.

These scriptures confirm that through the offering of the body of Christ, we have been sanctified, once.
I can't see how this sanctification was lacking in any way that a "process" of further sanctification is necessary.

Regarding Phil 2:12,13 I don't see this supporting a "process" of sanctification.
Instead, it speaks of continuing to believe in Jesus.

Note Phil 2:12
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
"fear" speaks of reverence/love for God
"trembling" speaks of knowing God's chastisement, Heb 12:6-11

For context, note also Phil 2:14-16
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: (remember that Israel murmured/disputed against God in the wilderness, doubting His promise and many failed to enter His rest because of their unbelief)
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Holding forth the word of life;
To be blameless and harmless is to believe in Jesus. Then your faith is counted for righteousness and you are sanctified/holy/righteous.
Christ is our light who shines within us to the world.
Holding forth the word of life is offering the gospel to others.

And Phil 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Consider also Eph 1:5; regarding God's good pleasure.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Phil 2:12-13; speaks of God's will (John 6:40, Eph 1:5) that we should believe in Jesus. And God is working in Christians to strengthen them in obeying His will of believing in Jesus.

Note also 1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Here we see the will of God is our sanctification (which is through believing in Jesus hence his offering sanctified us, Heb 10:10), but also that we abstain from fornication. This fornication is spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24.
An example of spiritual fornication is Gal 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[papajim]

Seems the debate continues, and rightflully so. Justifucation is our right to heaven sanctification is our preperation for heaven. God has made us holy in Christ, but if our mind is not holy then how can we enter the kingdom of heaven which is a holy place. It all comes to choice to recieve sanctification with all of our hearts, or to except in part, or to reject it alltogether. The choice is always ours. To reject sanctification in part, is to reject Christ in part, to reject Christ in part is to reject Christ alltogether. If we are made holy in Christ then let us live holy in Christ. Barny and DHC has been correct on the part of what God has given us, justification, and sanctification, but the choice is still up to us to recieve these gifts either the fullness of the gift or only in part. We may not have the right to refuse these gifts, but we have the choice to refuse the gifts. We can say we believe in Jesus and still reject sanctification there is nothing in the bible that says that we have to take it, but all of those that love the Lord thy God with all of thier hearts will gladly recieve all the fullness of Christ.
Unfortunetly through these debates the freedom of choice has never been and issue, it is only what God has given us that has been debated. If I am made holy then I will do that which is holy through faith, if I believe. But if I decide that I don't want it then I will not recieve it. Only those that except all of the fullness of Christ and all the fullness of sanctification will be in heaven, for sin is not allowed in heaven. We can cut it loose now and be saved by the grace of God through these gifts, or we can refuse these gifts and eternal life. It is a package deal, it is all or nothing, it is up to us.

I believe that where Barny, and DCH are incorrect (unless I have missunderstood them) is how we recieve these gifts. My mind controls my actions if I have the mind of Jesus, my actions will be the same as Jesus, if I have the mind of the world I will do the things of the world. My actions are a product of the mind. In other words my mind controls my physical behavior. Let this mind which is in Christ Jesus also be in you.

 

[papajim]

I assume salvation here is referring to salvation from eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.
Pleas explain yourself here James,
Eternal torment all depends on your point of view. To a sinful man eternal torment would be to be tormented for eternity. I believe that God sees eternal torment is to be seperated from Him for eternity. Eternal life is only promised to those that have Christ. Jn. 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton son that whosever believeth in Him shall not PERISH but shall have everlasting life. Here we see a contrast between everlasting and perishing which is not having everlasting life. God is life all those with God have life, to be seperated from God is to be seperated from life. It is as simple as that. Those that reject God also rejcets life. The reward is eternal death. The lake of fire is the second death, Rev.20:14, where the universe is finally cleansed of all death, sin and suffering, for suffering and death is a product of sin.
The problem lies in the belief of the eternal spirit, something that dosen't have a body. The belief is that the spirit cannot die so it either has to be with God or it has to be in eternal torment of hell. I propose to you that the spirit is the inward man, the part of us that makes the decision that either excepts savalation through justification and sanctification or rejects it. God has given us a body so that we can feel, touch, smell, taste, and think ect. Without the body we could do none of these things, if we could do things through a spirit what is the point of having a body?

The immortality of the spirit or soul is of pagan orgin.

 

[papajim]

Which brings up the reasons for sanctification.

1. To bear good fruit. ( Matt 3:8; Matt 3:10; Matt 7:19; Luke 3:9; Luke 8:15; John 15:2-16; Rom 7:4; )

2. To do the works God has ordained for us. ( Matt 5:16; John 9:4; Eph 2:10; 1 Tim 2:10; 1 Tim 6:18; Jas 2:20; )
-- These are not "works of the law" to obtain salvation ( Gal 2:16; Gal 3:2; Gal 3:5; )

3. To be a light, to be salt, to be an example of Godly living to the world. ( Matt 5:13; Mark 9:50; Luke 14:34; 1 Pet 4:3-4; )

4. To become more Holy, more righteous in Christ. ( Rom 8:13; 1 Cor 9:27; Heb 12:11; 2 Tim 2:21; Rev 3:19; )

* 5. As mentioned above, to earn rewards and a higher standing in the kingdom of God, and even in heaven. ( 1 Cor 3:12-15; )
(Matt 5:12; Matt 6:4; 1 Cor 3:8; Col 3:24; 2 Jn 1:8; )

It may seem like there are many purposes for this and there are, but ultimately they lead to one purpose.
The amazing thing about God desgned all this is how it all fits together. For example bearing fruit and being salt
is a way to lead others to Christ, if we are living the same way the world is living, why would anyone want to get saved?
If they see someone who has overcome drug addiction, alcoholism, being abusive, divorce or whatever it may be, then they
have a reason to want to get saved. If we can become more Holy, more loving, more compassionate towards these people
then they have a reason to wonder what is different about us and how do they get that? We all have some testimony of
something that changed in us after we have been a Christian for a while.

Jesus came to save souls, he told us to go out and preach to the world, this doesn't mean you have to go to Borneo
and become a missionary, you can be a missionary by the way you live right here in your own home town. ( Matt 9:37; )

I put an asterisk in front of number 5 above.
In the Bible it says some Christians will get different rewards.
-- Some of us will get a crown of life or a crown of Glory ( 2 Tim 4:8; Jas 1:12; 1 Pet 5:4; Rev 2:10; )
-- Some will receive robes of righteousness ( Rev 6:11; )
-- Some will inherit the Kingdom of God ( Matt 25:34; )
-- Some will reign with Christ for a thousand years ( Rev 20:6; )
-- Some will reign over the earth ( Rev 5:10; )
-- Some will reign forever and ever ( Rev 22:5; )
-- Some will be called "sons of God" ( Matt 5:9; )
-- Some will be pillars in the New Jerusalem ( Rev 3:12; )

There are other examples not included here, for example there will be an order of seating at Christ's table in heaven. ( Luke 14:8-10; )
I don't think this is in the Bible anywhere, but I've heard some preachers say the "many mansions" in John 14:2; might be different sizes
depending on your office and reward in heaven. Maybe some will get a penthouse on the top level, maybe some will get a studio apartment
on the bottom.

Back to the asterisk on number 5 above. Be careful for your motivation for doing things.
If you are tryingto further your kingdom, you will get no reward. The Bible talks about those who do things in front of people
to get noticed, they pray loundly on the street corners, and groan when they fast, and make a show of giving so they will be noticed
by men. The Bible says these people already have their rewards. On the other hand, if your are seeking to further God's Kingdom,
he will reward you as he deems you worthy.

The thief on the cross, went to paradise. In Matt 20:1-15; we see that even though the worker came at the eleventh hour of his life,
he received the wage of salvation like everyone else. However, he didn't receive the same rewards as everyone else.

Luke 19:16 "The first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.'
Luke 19:17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.'
Luke 19:18 "The second came, saying, 'Your mina, master, has made five minas.'
Luke 19:19 "And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.'

Remember when you face the trials of life, as we all do. ( Jas 1:2; 1 Pet 1:6; )
This could lead to more rewards in heaven. ( Heb 11:35; )

The great reward here is not just eternal life, but to have eternal life with the Father and the Son all these other things are nothing in comparison with this relationship. The great reward we have now is, the more we give to Christ is the more we recieve in Joy and thankfulness, the greater our faith the greater His righteousness dwells within us. Don't get Luke 19 confused with the final reward.

"The thief on the cross went to paradise" The rest of your statement is correct but this is incorrect. Jesus said verly, verly I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Notice the placement of the comma, it changes the whole meaning of this verse. It was the translators who put in the commas, puntuations, paragraphs, sentences, and so forth. We know that Jesus died that day but nowhere in scripture does it say that the theif died that day. In fact it was a form of extreme torture for the Romans to hang a man on a cross for days before he would die. I was told by an historian once that they broke the legs of a man so that if he escaped from the cross during the night when the soldiers went home, he could not travel far and escape entirely.

 

[james1523]

Pleas explain yourself here James,
Eternal torment all depends on your point of view. To a sinful man eternal torment would be to be tormented for eternity. I believe that God sees eternal torment is to be seperated from Him for eternity. Eternal life is only promised to those that have Christ. Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton son that whosever believeth in Him shall not PERISH but shall have everlasting life. Here we see a contrast between everlasting and perishing which is not having everlasting life. God is life all those with God have life, to be seperated from God is to be seperated from life. It is as simple as that. Those that reject God also rejcets life. The reward is eternal death. The lake of fire is the second death, Rev.20:14, where the universe is finally cleansed of all death, sin and suffering, for suffering and death is a product of sin.
The problem lies in the belief of the eternal spirit, something that dosen't have a body. The belief is that the spirit cannot die so it either has to be with God or it has to be in eternal torment of hell. I propose to you that the spirit is the inward man, the part of us that makes the decision that either excepts savalation through justification and sanctification or rejects it. God has given us a body so that we can feel, touch, smell, taste, and think ect. Without the body we could do none of these things, if we could do things through a spirit what is the point of having a body?
The immortality of the spirit or soul is of pagan orgin.

The bible indicates torment will not be ending:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Rev 20:20 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophethad been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Jesus said the fire is unquenchable, so it will never cease, and their "worm dieth not'.. meaning their spirit does not die:
Mark 9:43 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 60:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."



The human spirit is eternal because it is created by the eternal breath of God. What is of God is eternal and cannot be destroyed because God is eternal. This is the same for satan and the fallen angels who are also immortal spirit beings.

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."


If you like you can also check out what early Christians believed about this .e.g the Apocrypha, which indicates Christians believed in literal hellfire and souls/spirits were not destroyed but tormented continually for eternity.

Today it seems it is only Jehovah's Witness and other sects/cults like this who don't believe in eternal torment in a literal hellfire.

 

[papajim]

The bible indicates torment will not be ending:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Rev 20:20 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophethad been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Jesus said the fire is unquenchable, so it will never cease, and their "worm dieth not'.. meaning their spirit does not die:
Mark 9:43 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 60:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."



The human spirit is eternal because it is created by the eternal breath of God. What is of God is eternal and cannot be destroyed because God is eternal. This is the same for satan and the fallen angels who are also immortal spirit beings.

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."


If you like you can also check out what early Christians believed about this .e.g the Apocrypha, which indicates Christians believed in literal hellfire and souls/spirits were not destroyed but tormented continually for eternity.

Today it seems it is only Jehovah's Witness and other sects/cults like this who don't believe in eternal torment in a literal hellfire.

I will have to continue with this later, but here is something for you to think about. Jesus paid the penalty for sin "for the wages of sin is death" it does not say that the penalty is eternal burning in hell. If it had been eternal burning in hell, Jesus would still be there. I only want to redirect your thinking so that the bible is consistant. A lot of what we have learned from our churches is incorrect and causes confusion. I believe Einstien said our education gets in the way of our education or something like that. Keep an open mind James as we only want to believe in what is true which is a process for all of us. We know the bible doesn't contradict it'self but it is our understanding that needs to change. Also it conflicts with the character of God, which is love.

 

[jiggyfly]

I will have to continue with this later, but here is something for you to think about. Jesus paid the penalty for sin "for the wages of sin is death" it does not say that the penalty is eternal burning in hell. If it had been eternal burning in hell, Jesus would still be there. I only want to redirect your thinking so that the bible is consistant. A lot of what we have learned from our churches is incorrect and causes confusion. I believe Einstien said our education gets in the way of our education or something like that. Keep an open mind James as we only want to believe in what is true which is a process for all of us. We know the bible doesn't contradict it'self but it is our understanding that needs to change. Also it conflicts with the character of God, which is love.

Excellent post Papajim.

 

[Barny]

There is a commonly held view that sanctification manifests as holy physical behavior and that this is attained through a gradual process.

But scripture (Heb 10:10, Rom 11:16) confirms that we already have been sanctified by Christ.
To contradict this by saying we are still yet to be sanctified by a process, is actually doubting that we've been sanctified by the offering of the body of Christ.
This is doubting God's promise.

Regarding physical behavior, I would like to ask what level of good behavior indicates holiness?
Is it consistently perfect behavior?
Or is a lessor, acceptable level, enough?

Papajim said: "Only those that except all of the fullness of Christ and all the fullness of sanctification will be in heaven, for sin is not allowed in heaven. We can cut it loose now and be saved by the grace of God through these gifts, or we can refuse these gifts and eternal life. It is a package deal, it is all or nothing, it is up to us."

Papajim's view speaks of perfect physical behavior. Anyone with so called "sin" is not allowed in to Heaven.

But there are others here like B-A-C who believe that a lessor, yet acceptable, level of good behavior is enough.

Both these differing views however, rely on good behavior/lifestyle to gain entry into Heaven.

Unfortunately the perfect physical behavior view is unrealistic as we all know that even the most diligent keepers of the law fail to attain perfect obedience.

And the other view of near enough is good enough is ambiguous in that we don't know what this is, hence nobody will know whether they are saved or not because nobody knows what level of good physical behavior is acceptable to God as scripture does not speak on this.

But, the alternative to these 2 views above however, is that our old man is dead (by faith) Rom 8:10; and that in believing in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness and being in Christ we have been sanctified/holy, perfected and without sin. Thus we can enter Heaven because our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. It's is Christ's holiness, perfection, sinlessness that covers us.

And our works that shows our faith are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
This is the gospel message and this is the will of God, for us.
This is the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[james1523]

Thankyou for your post papajim I'll just have to break it up a bit and address specific points you made.

I will have to continue with this later, but here is something for you to think about. Jesus paid the penalty for sin "for the wages of sin is death" it does not say that the penalty is eternal burning in hell.

Here is also something for you to think about. God said to Adam and Eve "“in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die", but they did not die that same day, they lived another 800 or so years! So this indicates that the death which is the wages of sin, is not ceasing to exist, but eternal separation from God. We note that the antipode for this verse you mentioned is "gift of God is eternal life". So on one side we have "eternal death", and on the other side "eternal life". Or in other words "eternal separation from God" versus "eternal life with God".

I think the Scriptures I have posted indicating that torment is never ending and the fire is never put out , in Greek: 'eis tous aionas ton aionon' , are quite clear and stand alone by themselves without requiring further interpretation.
We note that the Bible never says that the Lake of Fire will cease burning.

If it had been eternal burning in hell, Jesus would still be there.

Oh dear, where is this from? Jesus never burnt in hell or burnt anywhere. Jesus said to the thief that they would be together in Paradise. Jesus went to the place of the dead, Hades..and the good side of Hades.. Paradise. This is not the same as "Gehenna", lake of fire, which is the final destination of satan and fallen angels and demons and all humans on their side. Unfortunately the KJV translates both places with the Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which leads to the confusion.

I only want to redirect your thinking so that the bible is consistant. A lot of what we have learned from our churches is incorrect and causes confusion. I believe Einstien said our education gets in the way of our education or something like that. Keep an open mind James as we only want to believe in what is true which is a process for all of us. We know the bible doesn't contradict it'self but it is our understanding that needs to change. Also it conflicts with the character of God, which is love.

Well there's no contradiction in my mind I accept what the Bible says plainly and simply about everlasting torment (Rev 20:20). This is straight from the Bible.
I should add that Judaism has a similar concept of a place of lasting torment, rather than destruction. According to Jewish tradition Gehenna is an afterlife realm where the souls of the unrighteous are punished.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that it is a pagan concept. The idea is in Christianity because it came from Judaism. Most early Christians including the Apostles did not believe differently. Today, the only Christian groups that do not believe in eternal torment are the Christian cults.

We may look to church history to prove that this is so. Of course they are uninspired records but we can look to these sources as historical proof that the doctrine of eternal torment is a very old one and was the commonly held view in the early church, well before the decline of the church got a foothold.

The historical proof is overwhelming that the early Christians generally believed in a place of torment not annihilation. Some of these ones I quote below (e.g. Irenaeus) were only 2nd generation disciples to the apostles themselves.

• • 
    
    • 
      
      • If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)

But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been thus defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. — Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 39.4

"Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God displayed when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly; for the fire is eternal...." — Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 28.1

"For neither will you commit any offence against your fathers, if you now show a desire to betake yourselves to that which is quite opposed to their error, since it is likely enough that they themselves are now lamenting in Hades, and repenting with a too late repentance.... — Justin, Hortatory Address to the Greeks Chapter 35

• And by means of this knowledge [of the true God] you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word! You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's eternal lake of fire, and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. — Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies Book 10, Chapter 30

• We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one...or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated." — Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians Chapter 3
• 
  
  • By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein — there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God." — Commodianus, Instructions Chapter 29
  
  

 

[B-A-C]

Eternal torment all depends on your point of view. To a sinful man eternal torment would be to be tormented for eternity. I believe that God sees eternal torment is to be seperated from Him for eternity.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

 

[DHC]

Genesis 3
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.

 

[papajim]

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

B-A-C , don't just read these verses but study them.
As for the rich man poor man, think about it, if this was a true story do you really think that they could be talking to one another? Do you think that those in Heaven will be talking to those in Hades. There is another lesson to be learned here, seek it out.

Notice in Mathew 25 that only the righteous have eternal life. If only the righteous have eternal life then eternal torment means something other that what you percieve. Burning in hell for eternity is also eternal life so something is amiss here.
The Lake of Fire is the second death Rev.21:8, 20:14.
Again study your bible don't just read it. Use the Gospel to give you a better understanding of this topic. Those that are dead cease from sin. As for the rest of what I have written did you even consider it? Don't be so eager to debate without searching this out.
Do you really believe the God you serve the same God that sent His only begotten Son to suffer the death of a cross for you so that you could have eternal life is the same God that would burn those that reject Him for eternity? Can you comprehend eternity? They may refuse Him, but they are still His children. Do you think a child of 15 years old that rejects Christ deserves the same punishment as the devil and his angels? Have you ever thought this thing through?
Notice in Rev.20:13 ,14 " And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Hell here is the grave. If every man is judged according to his works then the punishment will be also according to his works. Dosen't that make sense? otherwise what is the point of judgeing him according to his works? If everybody that rejects Christ is to burn for eternity then there is not point to it.
Notice, also that only those that are saved have the right to the tree of life and the water of life. Apparently there is something about the tree and water of life that sustains life, which the wicked will not have Rev.22:14,17
As long as suffering exists ,sin exists, there will be a blemish in the universe, God wants to destroy it alltogether, same as Jesus died for us to destroy it in us alltogether. Please understand that apart from God there is no life!!

 

[papajim]

There is a commonly held view that sanctification manifests as holy physical behavior and that this is attained through a gradual process.

But scripture (Heb 10:10, Rom 11:16) confirms that we already have been sanctified by Christ.
To contradict this by saying we are still yet to be sanctified by a process, is actually doubting that we've been sanctified by the offering of the body of Christ.
This is doubting God's promise.

Regarding physical behavior, I would like to ask what level of good behavior indicates holiness?
Is it consistently perfect behavior?
Or is a lessor, acceptable level, enough?

Papajim said: "Only those that except all of the fullness of Christ and all the fullness of sanctification will be in heaven, for sin is not allowed in heaven. We can cut it loose now and be saved by the grace of God through these gifts, or we can refuse these gifts and eternal life. It is a package deal, it is all or nothing, it is up to us."

Papajim's view speaks of perfect physical behavior. Anyone with so called "sin" is not allowed in to Heaven.

Papajim's views speak of perfect faith. Sin has been defeated so why do we believe it overpowers us? "For sin shall not have dominion over you"

But there are others here like B-A-C who believe that a lessor, yet acceptable, level of good behavior is enough.

B-A-C has not come to a fuller knowledge of the truth yet Barny, but he is on the right track.


Both these differing views however, rely on good behavior/lifestyle to gain entry into Heaven.


Here again we disagree Barny, we don't rely on good behavior, but on Christ and Christ alone. Some how you still think that we think that we are earning rightousness by the law. We don't live by the law but we acknowledge the law, "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" But I take faith and relationship to a much higher conclusion than you do. To say we cannot stop sinning in this world is unbelief and a work of the flesh because you keep referring to your own capabilities and not the power of God in us. Therefore through you unbelief you limit what God can and has done for us and in us.


And the other view of near enough is good enough is ambiguous in that we don't know what this is, hence nobody will know whether they are saved or not because nobody knows what level of good physical behavior is acceptable to God as scripture does not speak on this.

We are saved Barny from all of this. from sin and the acts of sinning. We are freed from sin!!!! We have been seperated from it so that we have no part in it and it is no longer has part in us in Christ. How can you not understand this??
Again we rely completely on God to do this in us.


But, the alternative to these 2 views above however, is that our old man is dead (by faith) Rom 8:10; and that in believing in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness and being in Christ we have been sanctified/holy, perfected and without sin. Thus we can enter Heaven because our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. It's is Christ's holiness, perfection, sinlessness that covers us.

If our old man is dead, believe it, if we allowed him to be dead we would not sin because a dead man cannot sin. Righteousness comes by faith, I become righteous by faith, and my faith is counted for righteousness. "We have been sanctified/holy, perfected and without sin" so why don't we then believe it?


And our works that shows our faith are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
This is the gospel message and this is the will of God, for us.
This is the simplicity that is in Christ.

It is all about faith Barny it just a matter of how much will you believe, do you limit your faith? "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" If we believe in Jesus and behold Jesus we will become like Jesus. "By beholding we become changed." We only have to be willing and if we are willing God will do His perfect work in us. When we limit our faith, we limit the power of God, let it not be so.

 

[B-A-C]

As for the rich man poor man, think about it, if this was a true story do you really think that they could be talking to one another? Do you think that those in Heaven will be talking to those in Hades. There is another lesson to be learned here, seek it out.

The Bible says sheol and paradise were separated by a chasm. Paradise isn't heaven. Paradise and hell are temporary places.
Heaven and the Lake of Fire are permanent places. Have you done a study on paradise, the bosom of Abraham, sheol, heaven and the Lake of fire? They are all different places.

Notice in Mathew 25 that only the righteous have eternal life. If only the righteous have eternal life then eternal torment means something other that what you percieve. Burning in hell for eternity is also eternal life so something is amiss here.

Have you ever burned your hand on a pan on top of a stove? I mean really blistered it for a couple of days? Now imagine that pain all over your body for eternity. You call that living?
The soul is forever. It is not obliterated. You will also see this in Rev 20:10;

 

[Barny]

Hi papajim,

Sorry, I nearly missed your reply as it was mixed with the quote of my earlier post.

I have encountered doctrines very similar to yours before. You follow a doctrine that teaches that one day in the future, by faith, you will be consistently perfect in this physical life.

I'll quote you in green.
Papajim's views speak of perfect faith. Sin has been defeated so why do we believe it overpowers us? "For sin shall not have dominion over you"

You are mistaken if you think sin overcomes believers. Scripture confirms we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.

You said:
"we don't rely on good behavior, but on Christ and Christ alone. Some how you still think that we think that we are earning rightousness by the law. We don't live by the law but we acknowledge the law, "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" But I take faith and relationship to a much higher conclusion than you do. To say we cannot stop sinning in this world is unbelief and a work of the flesh because you keep referring to your own capabilities and not the power of God in us. Therefore through you unbelief you limit what God can and has done for us and in us."

We both see each other as being in unbelief. You say I'm in unbelief because I don't expect there should be physical proof of perfect behavior in this life. Unfortunately you misunderstand scripture with such a claim.

And I see you as being in unbelief due to your desire to be perfected by the flesh. You deny the sanctification and righteousness believers have in Christ and instead expect to see physical proof of it before you will believe it (interestingly you call this "perfect faith").

The doctrine you follow reminds me of doubting Thomas who would not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he saw the physical evidence first.

You said:
We are saved Barny from all of this. from sin and the acts of sinning. We are freed from sin!!!! We have been seperated from it so that we have no part in it and it is no longer has part in us in Christ. How can you not understand this??
Again we rely completely on God to do this in us.

Christians are certainly freed from sin, Rom 6:7, John 8:36. Scripture even says we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.
Unfortunately you deny that we have this in Christ. Instead you expect to see tangible physical evidence of consistent perfect behavior in this life before you will believe God on it.
Unfortunately your focus is purely on the physical.
But, that physical body is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

And as that body is dead (by faith) already, and we're now justified in Christ, nobody can lay any charges of sin against us, Rom 8:33.

But the doctrine you follow still charges the new creation in Christ with sin, in spite of the cross.
The doctrine you follow deceitfully brings you under the law for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh. And in doing this you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.

Christ is the end of the law for righteous to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

 

[papajim]

Hi papajim,

Sorry, I nearly missed your reply as it was mixed with the quote of my earlier post.

I have encountered doctrines very similar to yours before. You follow a doctrine that teaches that one day in the future, by faith, you will be consistently perfect in this physical life.

I'll quote you in green.
Papajim's views speak of perfect faith. Sin has been defeated so why do we believe it overpowers us? "For sin shall not have dominion over you"

You are mistaken if you think sin overcomes believers. Scripture confirms we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.

You said:
"we don't rely on good behavior, but on Christ and Christ alone. Some how you still think that we think that we are earning rightousness by the law. We don't live by the law but we acknowledge the law, "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" But I take faith and relationship to a much higher conclusion than you do. To say we cannot stop sinning in this world is unbelief and a work of the flesh because you keep referring to your own capabilities and not the power of God in us. Therefore through you unbelief you limit what God can and has done for us and in us."

We both see each other as being in unbelief. You say I'm in unbelief because I don't expect there should be physical proof of perfect behavior in this life. Unfortunately you misunderstand scripture with such a claim.

And I see you as being in unbelief due to your desire to be perfected by the flesh. You deny the sanctification and righteousness believers have in Christ and instead expect to see physical proof of it before you will believe it (interestingly you call this "perfect faith").

The doctrine you follow reminds me of doubting Thomas who would not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he saw the physical evidence first.

You said:
We are saved Barny from all of this. from sin and the acts of sinning. We are freed from sin!!!! We have been seperated from it so that we have no part in it and it is no longer has part in us in Christ. How can you not understand this??
Again we rely completely on God to do this in us.

Christians are certainly freed from sin, Rom 6:7, John 8:36. Scripture even says we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1; "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.
Unfortunately you deny that we have this in Christ. Instead you expect to see tangible physical evidence of consistent perfect behavior in this life before you will believe God on it.
Unfortunately your focus is purely on the physical.
But, that physical body is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

And as that body is dead (by faith) already, and we're now justified in Christ, nobody can lay any charges of sin against us, Rom 8:33.

But the doctrine you follow still charges the new creation in Christ with sin, in spite of the cross.
The doctrine you follow deceitfully brings you under the law for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh. And in doing this you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.

Christ is the end of the law for righteous to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

I'm sorry Barny, I will have to invest some time in learning how to use this site so that I am not a constant headache to you. Thanks for your patients.

In the second to the last statement you said "for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh" if I understood it this way I would have to agree with you that I bring myself back under the law. It is not something that I can do, or could ever do, a lepoard cannot change his spots. It is something that Jesus does in me. All that I can do is be a willing vessel to be used for God's good pleasure and be a temple for God to dwell in. If I was to establish my own righteousness I will continue to be a filthy rag. I am only suggesting to you that there is no limit to what God can do in me, and that He has already perfected me in Christ so that I can fully live the righteosness of God now in this body by no power of my own. Christians in general limit the power of God and believe that the sin in their bodies, is greater than the power God has to bring sanctification into their lives, therefore limiting what can be done in them, by their own unbelief. In my walk with God I can only apply this to myself and to no one else. I can only use the law of God to judge my own actions and never the actions of others. And if I commit sin the law will tell me that I have departed from the loving arms of Christ and to repent and once again enjoy His loving grace that cleanses me from all unrighteousnss. Never am I to use the law to judge others, for to judge others is to judge myself and bring myself back under comdemnation. Maybe this is where the disagreement has been and if so I apoligize for not making myself more clear. If the love of God is in me this in itself will fullfill the law and through this wonderful love in me I recieve the fullness of sanctification. It is never something that I do, but always something that is done in me. Through grace and faith I can and will recieve the fullness of Christ so that I can walk as He walked, live as He lived, and overcome as He overcame.

 

[B-A-C]

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.

and so it is, with our fleshly bodies. But not our souls (spiritual bodies)

1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

1 Cor 15:13; But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;

Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

 

[DHC]

and so it is, with our fleshly bodies. But not our souls (spiritual bodies)

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Barny]

In the second to the last statement you said "for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh" if I understood it this way I would have to agree with you that I bring myself back under the law. It is not something that I can do, or could ever do, a lepoard cannot change his spots. It is something that Jesus does in me. All that I can do is be a willing vessel to be used for God's good pleasure and be a temple for God to dwell in. If I was to establish my own righteousness I will continue to be a filthy rag. I am only suggesting to you that there is no limit to what God can do in me, and that He has already perfected me in Christ so that I can fully live the righteosness of God now in this body by no power of my own. Christians in general limit the power of God and believe that the sin in their bodies, is greater than the power God has to bring sanctification into their lives, therefore limiting what can be done in them, by their own unbelief. In my walk with God I can only apply this to myself and to no one else. I can only use the law of God to judge my own actions and never the actions of others. And if I commit sin the law will tell me that I have departed from the loving arms of Christ and to repent and once again enjoy His loving grace that cleanses me from all unrighteousnss. Never am I to use the law to judge others, for to judge others is to judge myself and bring myself back under comdemnation. Maybe this is where the disagreement has been and if so I apoligize for not making myself more clear. If the love of God is in me this in itself will fullfill the law and through this wonderful love in me I recieve the fullness of sanctification. It is never something that I do, but always something that is done in me. Through grace and faith I can and will recieve the fullness of Christ so that I can walk as He walked, live as He lived, and overcome as He overcame.

Hi papajim,

When I said ""for righteousness to be perfected by the flesh", I was referring to doctrines similar to what you follow.
To clarify, I am referring to the fact that you do not see anyone as righteous unless they are perfectly keeping the law.
You say you do not judge others by the law, yet you preach that people are unrighteousness unless they perfectly keep the law.
You also say that you do use the law to judge your own righteousness.
But what is really happening is that you are judging righteousness by works of he law.

This is a contradiction to scripture which says our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law, as the doctrine you follow has done, Rom 11:6.

A little leaven (doctrines of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9
We need to purge out the old leaven (doctrines of works of the law), 1Cor 5:7.
Remember that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4
Therefore you should reject that works of the law doctrine you follow, which uses the law to determine righteousness.

You speak of repenting when you do transgress the law/sin.
Just a reminder to you that you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner when you go under the law to judge righteousness, Gal 2:18.

Christians are not under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 5:18. Hence we do not use the law to judge anyone, not even ourselves.
Our righteousness is by faith instead.
And Christians did repent of their "dead works" (Heb 6:1) when we received Christ. After that there is no more subsequent sin (and no more repentance, Heb 6:4-6). We've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin" 1John 3:9.

The doctrine you follow speaks of repenting whenever you transgress the law or else you're lost/unsaved. This is not supported in scripture and it also puts it's followers under the law for righteousness, still.