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Sanctification vs Justification
- Thread starter B-A-C
- Start date
You were correct in saying that the law was only given to Israel, but did you ask why it was only given to Israel? Every nation out there other than Israel believed in false gods, gods of wood and stone, gods of nature, gods of every kind, but in the one and only true God, the God of Israel. Israel was to be the light of the world and God through Israel was meant to show the world who the true God is, but more often than not Israel would go a ******* after heathen gods. One of the things the heathen would worship which was the bases for what they believed is worshiping the sun. The heathen gave the different days of the week a pagan name the first day was the sun, day, or sunday, and every sunday they would worship the sun as it came up in the east. They would have their sunrise service. This was an abomination to God. In contrast the Jews worshipped on the seventh day and in this alone they were seperated from the heathen nations, in this way it was a sign that they worshipped the only true God.
Sunday worship was an abomination to God because it represented the worship of false gods mainly in worshipping the sun. If it was an abomination to God then it will also be and abomination now. God gave us a day of rest, a day that He made, a day that He made Holy and sanctified, and what God sanctifies, it is sanctified forever. God sanctified us forever, but only those that truely believe will recieve sanctification. God said that it was His holy day and that Israel was to keep it holy. Two things I want you to see, first it is the sabbath of the Lord thy God which means, it is God's day, it belongs to Him, the second is that God created the world in seven days, on the seventh day He created the sabbath. If He did not create the sabbath on the seventh day then He created the world in six days. So the sabbath is as real as anything else that God created in the previous days.
The fourth command reads in part "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, six day shalt thou labor and do all thy works,but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God thou shalt not do any work." We are to work on the first day of the week (sunday) and worship God on the seventh day.
"So what is wrong with sunday observance?"
It is an abomination to God. God did not choose this day for worship, He chose the seventh day. The first day of the week was represented by sun worship, the seventh day was alway representing the worship of the only true God, the God that created the world and rested on the seventh day from all of His works. To choose our own day is to show unbelief, on the other hand Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
The controversy has alwasy been the same DHC, those that believe in the only true God, and those that do not.
When Jesus returns there will be only two classes of people, those that believe in the only true God, and those that do not.
Now I ask you this, how can a man keep anything holy?
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Faith accomplishes or is counted as righteousness, Rom 4:5.
2Cor 5:16,17
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
So why would a Christian continue to see themselves and other Christians as the old still?
We're a new creation, righteous, holy, perfected and without sin, in Christ.
And whilst in the physical, Christians are not perfect, we love/forgive 7x70, trusting in God that He works all things together for the good of those who love Him.
I agree with this.
Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered that our works are to believe in him, John 6:29.
But what works are you suggesting we are to have that shows our faith?
But sanctification isn't dependent on just the sacrifice, but the ongoing ministry of Christ as our High Priest. Just as the shadow or type of sanctification involved the work of the priest in the sprinkling of the blood in the sanctuary, so also does ours depend on the antitype, the reality of Jesus mediating on our behalf in heaven. The result, the tangible physical reality of the spiritual truth of this sanctification Barny can be seen a few verses later, noting the parallels between the OT type and the NT antitype in
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
What are those laws that are put into our hearts and minds Barny?
Note above in Heb 10:18 that there is "no more offering for sin".
This confirms the many others scriptures that likewise show how Christians have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin" 1John 3:9, etc.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (even sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
As for the law written into our hearts and minds.
Rom 7:22
I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. (Christ in us).
And Christ does obey the law perfectly.
It seems that you are reading scripture in physical terms.
But remember scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
Lets consider your scripture quote above:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So if you are reading this in physical terms, then anyone in adultery (very common today with divorce and marrying another, Mark 10:11,12) is not going to inherit the kingdom of God, according to your understanding of this scripture.
And likewise anyone who gets drunk with alcohol will likewise not inherit the kingdom of God according to this physical understanding.
(Interestingly the failure to keep the Sabbath is not mentioned here.)
Or is it speaking spiritually?
Consider fornication/adultery. Both of which are voluntary acts of sexual immorality.
Now who are Christians joined to?
1Cor 6:15-19
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Christians are to abstain from spiritual fornication. This is referring to fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24.
And this is what 1Cor 5 speaks of in referring to one who fornicates with his father's (being Satan, John 8:44), wife (Hagar/the law). So we see it speaks to those who judge righteousness by works of the law.
1Cor 5:7 even says to purge out the old leaven. Leaven speaks of righteousness by works of the law, as Jesus described in Matt 16:12.
You agree our righteousness is already taken care of through our faith, and then you claim that evidence can be found in our physical behavior.
Unfortunately I still find from your posts contradictions.
Consider your statement below from an earlier post:
that is precisely why the law as given! To determine righteousness, to point out sin. The law is a mirror to the heart,....
It is God that demands evidence of our faith. We are judged by our works. ....
Therefore Barny the question is how can obedience to the law not be a requirement under the NT? "
Also consider how you quoted Gal 5:19;21, in physical terms thus suggesting that adultery (very common these days, Mark 10:11,12), and getting drunk with alcohol, excludes such from the kingdom of God.
Can you explain yourself regarding these contradictions to your other claim that our righteousness is already taken care of as our faith is counted for righteousness.
Hi papajuim,
Thanks for the emotional appeal and exhortation to believe in Jesus.
We agree it's the spirit within us that gives us understanding. And until then we will not be able to understand scripture until we're ready to receive it.
Now it's in believing in Jesus that we differ.
I see our faith as being counted for righteousness when we believe in Jesus.
But you add to this a requirement of physical evidence of works of the law. And it is this that we are both have been differing on. You see this addition of works of the law as belief, whereas I have shown in scripture that it is unbelief.
Below is a copy of an earlier post I had sent with quotes of your that show how you describe any who do not attain perfect obedience to the law as being of the world (that is condemned/lost).
And as you did not really explain these beliefs with any scriptural support I thought you might like to now.
Your quotes are highlighted in green italics.
Why all the talk of minimum behaviour?
The reason for this question I continue to ask is because of the consequences for disobedience to the law that the likes of you subtly proclaim.
You speak of love, but, the underlying message is if we don't obey the law then we're condemned/lost.
Note a few quotes I have below from earlier posts.
that is precisely why the law as given! To determine righteousness, to point out sin. The law is a mirror to the heart,....
It is God that demands evidence of our faith. We are judged by our works. ....
Therefore Barny the question is how can obedience to the law not be a requirement under the NT?
Here we see that righteousness is determined/judged by works of the law, according to brakelite.
And whilst I acknowledge that you guys are not directly saying our righteousness is by works of the law, you are indirectly saying it is by the mere fact that you judge yourself as unrighteous unless you have physical evidence of it through works of the law.
Hence my continued questioning on how much evidence is needed to confirm that a Christian is righteous.
I know you have said perfect obedience to the law is required (see quote below). Therefore it's clear that you do not see yourself as righteous (and therefore saved) until you attain that perfect obedience as evidence of righteousness.
braklite and others here seem to be suggesting that God accepts a lessor level of obedience to the law. Hence again I have been asking how much obedience is required?
And in both these doctrines we see the same conclusion that Christians are allegedly not righteous until they have physical evidence of it by works of the law.
This contradicts scripture that says our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
I'll answer that question for you Barny, it is perfect obedience and that is what we have in Christ. It is also the minimum.
I had asked earlier, regarding your point that we should not limit God in working through us, if you have perfectly obeyed the law since receiving Christ and also do you have any physical ailments since receiving Christ?
I can only use the law of God to judge my own actions and never the actions of others. And if I commit sin the law will tell me that I have departed from the loving arms of Christ and to repent and once again enjoy His loving grace that cleanses me from all unrighteousnss. ..... If the love of God is in me this in itself will fullfill the law and through this wonderful love in me I recieve the fullness of sanctification. It is never something that I do, but always something that is done in me. Through grace and faith I can and will recieve the fullness of Christ so that I can walk as He walked, live as He lived, and overcome as He overcame.
Again, here we see you state that when you sin you are unrighteous. And this is judged by works of the law (just as the Pharisees judged).
And note your last sentence above. You don't see that you have the fullness of Christ, yet.
But scripture contradicts you, saying that:
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We have been sanctified, Heb 10:10.
We're holy, Rom 11:16.
We're perfected, Heb 10:14.
We cannot sin, 1 John 3:9
Col 2:9-10
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power
Having the imputed righteousness of Christ, we are still to live a Godly life. How can we be a peculiar people of we do not? If we look like the world, eat and drink like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, dress like the world and sin like the world, we are of the world. We are to be different than the world, to overcome the world and that which is in the world, and what is in he world that we need to overcome? SIN!.
So here we see that "we are of the world" if we do not have perfect obedience to the law as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness. Again this confirms that the doctrine you follow says that believers are not righteous until works of the law confirms it.
This is unbelief in Jesus. It denies that our faith is counted for righteousness.
Papajim, I'd like to ask, with your Adventists background, what you believe scripture says of any Christians who never keep the Saturday Sabbath?
Many Christians live a fairly good lifestyle (no different than yourself) but they never keep the Saturday Sabbath. What do you believe scripture says regarding their position?
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Hi papajuim,
Thanks for the emotional appeal and exhortation to believe in Jesus.
We agree it's the spirit within us that gives us understanding. And until then we will not be able to understand scripture until we're ready to receive it.
Now it's in believing in Jesus that we differ.
I see our faith as being counted for righteousness when we believe in Jesus.
But you add to this a requirement of physical evidence of works of the law. And it is this that we are both have been differing on. You see this addition of works of the law as belief, whereas I have shown in scripture that it is unbelief.
Below is a copy of an earlier post I had sent with quotes of your that show how you describe any who do not attain perfect obedience to the law as being of the world (that is condemned/lost).
And as you did not really explain these beliefs with any scriptural support I thought you might like to now.
Your quotes are highlighted in green italics.
Originally Posted by papajim
Why all the talk of minimum behaviour?
The reason for this question I continue to ask is because of the consequences for disobedience to the law that the likes of you subtly proclaim.
You speak of love, but, the underlying message is if we don't obey the law then we're condemned/lost.
Note a few quotes I have below from earlier posts.
Originally Posted by brakelite
that is precisely why the law as given! To determine righteousness, to point out sin. The law is a mirror to the heart,....
It is God that demands evidence of our faith. We are judged by our works. ....
Therefore Barny the question is how can obedience to the law not be a requirement under the NT?
Here we see that righteousness is determined/judged by works of the law, according to brakelite.
And whilst I acknowledge that you guys are not directly saying our righteousness is by works of the law, you are indirectly saying it is by the mere fact that you judge yourself as unrighteous unless you have physical evidence of it through works of the law.
Hence my continued questioning on how much evidence is needed to confirm that a Christian is righteous.
I know you have said perfect obedience to the law is required (see quote below). Therefore it's clear that you do not see yourself as righteous (and therefore saved) until you attain that perfect obedience as evidence of righteousness.
braklite and others here seem to be suggesting that God accepts a lessor level of obedience to the law. Hence again I have been asking how much obedience is required?
And in both these doctrines we see the same conclusion that Christians are allegedly not righteous until they have physical evidence of it by works of the law.
This contradicts scripture that says our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Originally Posted by papajim
I'll answer that question for you Barny, it is perfect obedience and that is what we have in Christ. It is also the minimum.
I had asked earlier, regarding your point that we should not limit God in working through us, if you have perfectly obeyed the law since receiving Christ and also do you have any physical ailments since receiving Christ?
Originally Posted by papajim
I can only use the law of God to judge my own actions and never the actions of others. And if I commit sin the law will tell me that I have departed from the loving arms of Christ and to repent and once again enjoy His loving grace that cleanses me from all unrighteousnss. ..... If the love of God is in me this in itself will fullfill the law and through this wonderful love in me I recieve the fullness of sanctification. It is never something that I do, but always something that is done in me. Through grace and faith I can and will recieve the fullness of Christ so that I can walk as He walked, live as He lived, and overcome as He overcame.
Again, here we see you state that when you sin you are unrighteous. And this is judged by works of the law (just as the Pharisees judged).
And note your last sentence above. You don't see that you have the fullness of Christ, yet.
But scripture contradicts you, saying that:
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We have been sanctified, Heb 10:10.
We're holy, Rom 11:16.
We're perfected, Heb 10:14.
We cannot sin, 1 John 3:9
Col 2:9-10
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power
Originally Posted by papajim
Having the imputed righteousness of Christ, we are still to live a Godly life. How can we be a peculiar people of we do not? If we look like the world, eat and drink like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, dress like the world and sin like the world, we are of the world. We are to be different than the world, to overcome the world and that which is in the world, and what is in he world that we need to overcome? SIN!.
So here we see that "we are of the world" if we do not have perfect obedience to the law as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness. Again this confirms that the doctrine you follow says that believers are not righteous until works of the law confirms it.
This is unbelief in Jesus. It denies that our faith is counted for righteousness.
Papajim, I'd like to ask, with your Adventists background, what you believe scripture says of any Christians who never keep the Saturday Sabbath?
Many Christians live a fairly good lifestyle (no different than yourself) but they never keep the Saturday Sabbath. What do you believe scripture says regarding their position?
Hello Barny,
Let me answer you questions with some questions of my own.
Was Jesus full of the grace of God?
Was Jesus full of faith?
Was Jesus obedient to all the laws of God (ten commandments)? and if He was obedient to all of the laws did He do it by the works of the law or by faith?
What was Jesus's physical behaviour?
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Hi papajuim,
Originally Posted by papajim
So here we see that "we are of the world" if we do not have perfect obedience to the law as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness. Again this confirms that the doctrine you follow says that believers are not righteous until works of the law confirms it.
This is unbelief in Jesus. It denies that our faith is counted for righteousness.
Papajim, I'd like to ask, with your Adventists background, what you believe scripture says of any Christians who never keep the Saturday Sabbath?
Many Christians live a fairly good lifestyle (no different than yourself) but they never keep the Saturday Sabbath. What do you believe scripture says regarding their position?
Your problem is your always looking in the wrong places for perfect obedience. Why do you constantly look to others to confirm your own ideas of righteousness by faith? There is only one that you should be looking to, it is only in Christ that you have perfect obedience to the law. You look to others to prove your point and because nobody has risen to your understanding of my views you automatically assume that it cannot be done showing your unbelief through the conformation of others.
Barny, the only reason there is imparted righteousness is because of unbelief in the imputed righteousness of Christ. We have all the fullness of Christ now, but it is through unbelief that we do not obtain it. If I gave you a ten dollar bill it will not benefit you until you reach out and take it, and it still does not benefit you until you use it. So God gives, and by faith we recieve, if we want it. The battle in us is wanting it and believing it. Wanting it is the Spirit of God working in us, and in this destroys the desire for lust. Believing it, is the fullness of Christ manifested in us so that His works becomes our works, working in us, which positively effects our physical behaviour. If I saw a man that was hungry and I said to him, may God bless you, and feed you, and went on my way, or if I fed this hungry man and clothed him and gave him a place to stay, is not this all physical behaviour? Which one says I love you the words spoken, or the physical behaviour?
If we have all the fullness of Christ let us live in all the fullness of Christ through faith if we do not, it is because of unbelief. If I sin, it is through unbelief regardless of what I confess with my mouth. You say that we cannot sin, this is true if our sinful nature is dead through faith and Christ is alive in us. The law will tell us of our faith or our unbelief. If I sin the law cries You don't believe, for you have broken away from the fullness of Christ through your unbelief. If I truly believe in the imputed righteousness , it is only then that I cannot sin. My actions will show what I believe regardless of what I profess with my mouth. Faith controls the mind and the mind controls the physical behaviour.
Galatians 5:16-26 " This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. When you see "so that ye cannot "do the things that ye would" we are talking about physical behaviour.
18. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Those that fulfil the lust of the flesh are those that are under the law.
19.Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultry, fornication, uncleanness, lascivousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, eresies. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentelness goodness. faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they are Christ's have crucifiedthe flesh with the affections and lusts."
Notice here it says and they are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Sound like we have something to do with this dosen't it? So what happens if we have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Choices made by faith or unbelief. Going by this, we can sin, if we choose to do so, which changes the meaning of what you have percieved that John said, in that we cannot sin. It is your understanding that is amiss. It is only when our faith is at it's completion that we cannot sin in Christ.
25. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be deirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."For your last question, I believe there is a sin not unto death, and that sin is unwillful ignorance. God's people live up to all the knowledge they have because of their love for God, I believe if they had known, and were convinced they would have excepted and kept the sabbath day holy, but because of ignorance in the sabbath they did not follow it. God is merciful, fair and just.
All of this speaks of physical behaviour as wels as mental atitude.
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brakelite
Member
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All good questions papajim.
The fruits that grow as a result of abiding in the vine are described variously by Paul and James as fruits of righteousness. (See Romans 6:21,22; Romans 7:4; 2Cor 9:10 ; Galatians 5:22; Philp 1:11; James 3:17 ). In nature The whole purpose of life is to beget more life. We see this in every living thing, the innate power (a gift from God) to generate offspring. This occurs in both animal and vegetarian life forms. It also is a spiritual truth as described by Jesus and His commandments to us that we abide in Him that we bear fruit. What is in that fruit but seed! Seed which is the genesis of future generations. The fruits of a righteous life is that which gives the gospel its power. Who believes an evangelist who is shacking up with the choir master's wife? Who believes the pastor who spends his spare time ogling the female members of his church? Who believes the priest who has spent the last 25 years of his ministry abusing young children? Who believes the lay member who spends more time watching movies, partying, smoking and drinking, than he/she does in ministering to the sick, the aged, the poor, or reading /studying the Bible and in prayer? There is no seed to sow without the fruit from which it comes.
So Barny, I would like to add a question to papajims if I may.
Do you believe these "peaceable fruits of righteousness" as described by James the apostle are
1. works of the law or
2. imparted righteousness?
DHC
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Hello Papajim.
I noticed this post, a reply to Barny.
Jesus did not need faith Papajim, Jesus was God.
You continually contradict yourself in your posts.
The physical behavior of Jesus was the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus performed miracle after miracle, healing and driving out demons.
The pharisees said that Jesus was powered by the devil.
This is the unforgivable sin.
If you have God within you Papajim, nothing is impossible.
The same power that Jesus displayed is available to those who receive
the Holy Spirit.
Your understanding of the scripture is greatly lacking.
sintheticg
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the only thing that please the Father was the bruising of His Son.
(Isaiah 53:1-12) "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? {2} For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. {3} He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. {4} ¶Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. {5} But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. {6} All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. {8} He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {9} And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {10} ¶Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. {11} He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. {12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
therefore why do you keep the law? to please God? it is not pleasing to him. you had to be born again, now God see's the blood of his Son when he looks at you.
(Isaiah 53:1-12) "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? {2} For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. {3} He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. {4} ¶Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. {5} But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. {6} All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. {8} He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {9} And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {10} ¶Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. {11} He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. {12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
therefore why do you keep the law? to please God? it is not pleasing to him. you had to be born again, now God see's the blood of his Son when he looks at you.
Hi papajim and brakelite,
Thanks for your replies.
Unfortunately they continue to confirm that you seek to attain righteousness by works of the law.
You both speak of righteousness by faith but then deny righteousness by faith until you see evidence of perfect obedience to the law.
The doctrine you follow reminds me of 2Cor 11:3.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The doctrine you follow has corrupted your minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
You are both following a similar path to Israel which likewise sought righteousness by works of the law.
Rom 9:31-33
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was not ashamed. And he was saved without the deeds of the law as evidence, that you guys insist we must have.
Thanks for your replies.
Unfortunately they continue to confirm that you seek to attain righteousness by works of the law.
You both speak of righteousness by faith but then deny righteousness by faith until you see evidence of perfect obedience to the law.
The doctrine you follow reminds me of 2Cor 11:3.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The doctrine you follow has corrupted your minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
You are both following a similar path to Israel which likewise sought righteousness by works of the law.
Rom 9:31-33
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was not ashamed. And he was saved without the deeds of the law as evidence, that you guys insist we must have.
Hello Barny,
Mathew 7:22-25, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: dpart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liked him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock."
Here Jesus is talking about those who believe in Him and do extrodinary things in His name, but because they work iniquity Jesus does not know them. This pretty well sums up that we are to live Godly lives in Christ. Iniquity is sin, those that sin are full of unbelief in the imputed righteouseness of Christ, but yet you say "we cannot sin," this verse also shows that you misunderstand what John has said.
There is a difference in the works of the law and Christ working in us, but you fail to see this. When I am dead, and Christ is alive in me He will live as He is. I don't know why this is hard for you to understand.
Maybe it is because you don't understand why Jesus came in the flesh and overcame in the flesh, and that He was tempted in all points as we are and yet without sin. Maybe you should study this and build on this foundation to get a better understanding of the gospel.
It appears to me that you pick and choose the verses in the bible to support your belief and deny or disgard what does not fit into your belief.
I am saying that it is our faith that overcomes the world so that we no longer live like the world, and you are saying that all we have to do is believe in Jesus, but the above quote denies your idea of truth. It's not that you are wrong in the imputed righteousness, it is that you are wrong in how it effects us.
You base your entire belief on the theif on the cross, who was not able to grow up into Christ and live by faith, He accepted Jesus and His kingdom, and that was all He was able to do as it would be for anyone who excepts Jesus and dies in a short time. However our situation is not the same as the theif on the cross we did not die right after we accepted Jesus. Our spiritual growth is dependent on our faith, the greater our faith the more we recieve the imputed righteousness of Christ. It has alway been a two way street, Jesus gives and we recieve through faith.
Where we differ is the meaning of faith. Yes we do believe in Jesus but to what extent? Is it a surface belief or is it a powerful belief that transforms our lives into the righteousness of Christ.
You only have half truth and that half truth is what Jesus gave to us, but you feel we have not part or decision in our lives if we believe in Jesus. So I feel you have a one sided covenant. Believing in Jesus is more than confessing it with our mouths.
Mathew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall inter ito the kingdom of heaven; but he hat doeth the will of my father which is in heaven."
These people that say Lord, Lord, believe in Jesus, but unless they are doing the will of God they will not enter into heaven. What is the will of God even our sanctification. Apparently these people have the imputed righteousness of Jesus and they still are not saved, why? because they work iniquity, which is something that you say they cannot do. So your belief that we cannot sin, contradicts the words of Jesus.
1Jn.1:9 Speaking in present tense as well as future. "If we confess our sins, (something you say we cannot do) He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and clense us from all unrighteousness."
1Jn. 1:7 BUt if we walk in the light, as He walked in the light, ( this is interesting we are to walk as He walked, would you think that we are also to live as He lived?) we have fellowhip one wth another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. So I take it, we can't be cleansed from sin unless we walk in the light as He walked in the light which means there is more to the gospel than just believing in Jesus as you understand it.
This verse is loaded with truth. Study it!
Barny believing in half truths is living on dangerous ground. We are to surrender our entire lives to Christ and nothing less is ecceptable, nothing less will free us from unbelief. We recieve the imputed righteousness of Christ through faith and what is the imputed rightousness of Jesus, freedom from sin, what is sin? transgression of the law. So if I am free from sin, I am free from transgressing the law. This is what we need to believe with every ounce of strength in our being. This is believing in Jesus.
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To your first comment, I suggest you do a greater study on Jesus coming in the flesh.
To your second comment, I did not contradict my self but tried to say that believing in Jesus is more that confessing it with your mouth. It is your understanding of what I said that seems to contradict.
We also have the power of the Holy Spirit, and if we had the faith of Jesus we could also do the same works as Jesus.
The unforgivable sin is greiving away the Holy Spirit, this is what the Pharisees did to give them the attitude they had towards Christ.
"If ou have God within you Papajim, nothing is impossible." This is the whole point I have been trying to make on TJ.
Your understanding of what I have been saying is greatly lacking.
In our selves we cannot keep the law but through faith we recieve the righteousness of God which the law testifies.
We keep the law not from our works but through Christ working in us, freedom from sin was imputed to us from God in Christ. By faith we become the rigteousness of God in Christ. Think about what that means, dwell upon it, and meditate on it, so that you understand what this means, and you will be blessed.
Hi papaijm,
And as the likes of yourself and brakelite have revealed, you have not lived in perfect obedience to the law since the day you received Christ.
You have failed to attain that perfection in the physical, that you claim we must have as evidence of "imparted" righteousness/salvation.
You are still "of the world", as you described in an earlier post.
Sadly the doctrine you follow sees you as such until you attain that perfect obedience to the law, consistently.
And according to the true gospel, you are of the world simply because you are seeking to be perfected by the flesh through works of the law.
This is not a valid comment, as the same can be said about you.
The reality is that we both have different understandings of scripture, hence we both are reading them applying different contexts.
That thief on the cross was God's example of how we are saved by grace.
It's God's example of how we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.
The doctrine you follow suggests that God is unjust in that the thief got to paradise without deeds of the law whereas those who live on have to show deeds of the law as evidence.
You claim our situation is not the same as that thief and that we have to show evidence by works of the law.
God disagrees with you and says our situation is the same as that thief. We're saved by grace. We're justified by faith, without the deeds of the law.
The will of God is that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40
The will of God is our sanctification (1Thess 4:3), which we have when we believe in Jesus (Heb 10:10).
And the will of God is also that we abstain from fornication, 1Thess 4:3.
The fornication it speaks of is spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24.
The doctrine you follow is spiritual fornication.
Here you are taking scripture out of context, as I also showed in earlier posts.
And note how your misunderstanding of 1John 1:9 corresponds with your error doctrine that has you in and out and in and out of righteousness, continuously.
But scripture shows that Christ's sacrifice on the cross totally cleansed/purged us of past sin, Rom 3:25. After that there is no more sacrifice for sin. We have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1.
Nobody, not even Satan the accuser, can lay anything (not even sin) to the charge of those God has justified, Rom 8:33.
.
Scripture contradicts you.
Sin is transgression of the law, but we are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25.
Hence we cannot be charged with transgressing it.
Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
The difference between us is that you seek to attain righteousness by works of the law whereas I seek it by faith.
The outcome of these 2 differeint directions is that, like the thief on the cross, through my faith I'm justified by God without the deeds of the law, whereas as you are not justified nor righteous because you deny the gospel of Christ through your works of the law.
Hence why we here on TJ are warning you to repent and believe in Jesus.
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I'm sad for you Barny
One thing I know for sure is, if I am uncertain of anything in the gospel, I can always look to the life of Jesus for guidence. I believe in Him and I believe in His ways and I know if I follow Him I will spend eternity with Him.
Rev. 14:4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins, These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever He goeth, These were redemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb"
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello Papajim.
You stated the following in your reply;
You base your entire belief on the theif on the cross, who was not able to grow up into
Christ and live by faith, He accepted Jesus and His kingdom, and that was all He was able
to do as it would be for anyone who excepts Jesus and dies in a short time. However our
situation is not the same as the theif on the cross we did not die right after we accepted Jesus.
Hello Papajim.
Read the paragraph above and note please what you said.
"However our situation is not the same as the theif on the cross
we did not die right after we accepted Jesus."
It is your understanding that we have a different situation to the
thief on the cross. No Papajim, it is precisely the same situation.
The thief put his trust in Jesus, we put our trust in Jesus.
Identical beliefs, identical outcome.
We put our trust in Jesus and are saved, exactly the same
outcome that the thief obtained. Surely Papajim, you can see
that your sda theology creates this "seperation" in your thought
process.
The thief was justified and sanctified by Jesus Christ.
The thief was saved by the Gospel, without works of the law.
We are saved, justified and sanctified, also without works of
the law.
When you confessed and believed in Jesus you were baptised
into His death Papajim. Read the following again.
Romans 6
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
so we too might walk in newness of life.
So Papajim if you are dead, how can you sin?
No one can argue with this fact, if your dead it is
impossible to sin.You cannot sin Papajim, this is the
very point that Paul is making. You have been buried
with Christ thus you are a new creation.
If you are baptised into the death of Christ then the sinful
intent, the corrupt flesh is dead. You are dead Papajim,
you died with Christ, hence there is no sin. Hold this
truth Papajim and lock it in to your thought process.
Your mistake Papajim is in the understanding of what the
death in Christ represents.You replied that you still lived
in the flesh, that the flesh had to be dealt with? Your view
is that you must emulate the life of Christ and fulfill the law?
Here is the foundation of the contradiction that I stated
was in your posts. If you are dead in Christ then it is not
possible that the sinful flesh is still alive or active. The dead
are inactive, the dead do not sin, if you have died with Christ
then the old person has been crucified.
It is your failure to accept the death of the flesh that causes
the paradox to exist in your mind. My flesh is dead in Christ,
but it is not dead because I still sin. This is the unresolved
paradox, that is why you then look at obedience to the law
as a solution to this problem.
The law does not apply to the dead Papajim, it applies to the
living sinful, unregenrate flesh. The law is for the unrighteous
not the righteous. True faith in Christ is a baptism of death,
you are dead, now Christ lives in you. That is why Paul calls
this new life, a new creation.
As long as you see yourself alive in the flesh, then sin will
control your actions. Put to death this old sinful man, the deeds
of the this flesh, accept the death and you will be raised in Christ.
Let us again read again the relevant scripture which I will explain
underneath each line.
1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
(This is the behavior of the unrighteous)
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(In Jesus is no sin, no lawlessness)
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
( No one in Christ can sin, anyone who does sin does not know Him)
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is
righteous, just as He is righteous;
( We have the righteousness of Christ, we practice righteousness)
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
(Living in sin is unrighteousness, of the devil)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(You cannot sin if you are born again, born of Christ, fact!)
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does
not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
( Fruit of the spirit within is the evidence, patience, kindness, love, etc)
In this theology, there is no separation between the thief and us!
Papajim I ask that you explain the above, your interpretation.
You stated the following in your reply;
You base your entire belief on the theif on the cross, who was not able to grow up into
Christ and live by faith, He accepted Jesus and His kingdom, and that was all He was able
to do as it would be for anyone who excepts Jesus and dies in a short time. However our
situation is not the same as the theif on the cross we did not die right after we accepted Jesus.
Hello Papajim.
Read the paragraph above and note please what you said.
"However our situation is not the same as the theif on the cross
we did not die right after we accepted Jesus."
It is your understanding that we have a different situation to the
thief on the cross. No Papajim, it is precisely the same situation.
The thief put his trust in Jesus, we put our trust in Jesus.
Identical beliefs, identical outcome.
We put our trust in Jesus and are saved, exactly the same
outcome that the thief obtained. Surely Papajim, you can see
that your sda theology creates this "seperation" in your thought
process.
The thief was justified and sanctified by Jesus Christ.
The thief was saved by the Gospel, without works of the law.
We are saved, justified and sanctified, also without works of
the law.
When you confessed and believed in Jesus you were baptised
into His death Papajim. Read the following again.
Romans 6
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
so we too might walk in newness of life.
So Papajim if you are dead, how can you sin?
No one can argue with this fact, if your dead it is
impossible to sin.You cannot sin Papajim, this is the
very point that Paul is making. You have been buried
with Christ thus you are a new creation.
If you are baptised into the death of Christ then the sinful
intent, the corrupt flesh is dead. You are dead Papajim,
you died with Christ, hence there is no sin. Hold this
truth Papajim and lock it in to your thought process.
Your mistake Papajim is in the understanding of what the
death in Christ represents.You replied that you still lived
in the flesh, that the flesh had to be dealt with? Your view
is that you must emulate the life of Christ and fulfill the law?
Here is the foundation of the contradiction that I stated
was in your posts. If you are dead in Christ then it is not
possible that the sinful flesh is still alive or active. The dead
are inactive, the dead do not sin, if you have died with Christ
then the old person has been crucified.
It is your failure to accept the death of the flesh that causes
the paradox to exist in your mind. My flesh is dead in Christ,
but it is not dead because I still sin. This is the unresolved
paradox, that is why you then look at obedience to the law
as a solution to this problem.
The law does not apply to the dead Papajim, it applies to the
living sinful, unregenrate flesh. The law is for the unrighteous
not the righteous. True faith in Christ is a baptism of death,
you are dead, now Christ lives in you. That is why Paul calls
this new life, a new creation.
As long as you see yourself alive in the flesh, then sin will
control your actions. Put to death this old sinful man, the deeds
of the this flesh, accept the death and you will be raised in Christ.
Let us again read again the relevant scripture which I will explain
underneath each line.
1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
(This is the behavior of the unrighteous)
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(In Jesus is no sin, no lawlessness)
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
( No one in Christ can sin, anyone who does sin does not know Him)
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is
righteous, just as He is righteous;
( We have the righteousness of Christ, we practice righteousness)
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
(Living in sin is unrighteousness, of the devil)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(You cannot sin if you are born again, born of Christ, fact!)
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does
not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
( Fruit of the spirit within is the evidence, patience, kindness, love, etc)
In this theology, there is no separation between the thief and us!
Papajim I ask that you explain the above, your interpretation.
Hi papajim,
Thanks for your concern, but I likewise am concerned for you in your following a false doctrine that mixes grace with works of the law.
Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed, Rom 11:6.
To mix these 2 is to be lukewarm, which God does not accept, Rev 3:16.
And whilst it sounds good that you say you believe in Jesus, we both know that faith without works is dead. And Jesus said our works are to believe in him, John 6:29.
If we really believe in Jesus then works of the law should not then be added to these works of believing in Jesus. We are justified without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28, as we see with the thief on the cross.
To say you believe in Jesus but then add works of the law to prove righteousness, is really showing unbelief.
Tit 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
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It is your understanding that we have a different situation to the
thief on the cross. No Papajim, it is precisely the same situation.
The thief put his trust in Jesus, we put our trust in Jesus.
Identical beliefs, identical outcome.
We put our trust in Jesus and are saved, exactly the same
outcome that the thief obtained. Surely Papajim, you can see
that your sda theology creates this "seperation" in your thought
process.
The thief was justified and sanctified by Jesus Christ.
The thief was saved by the Gospel, without works of the law.
We are saved, justified and sanctified, also without works of
the law.
When you confessed and believed in Jesus you were baptised
into His death Papajim. Read the following again.
Romans 6
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
so we too might walk in newness of life.
Yes, I agree with this.
1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
(This is the behavior of the unrighteous)
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(In Jesus is no sin, no lawlessness)
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
( No one in Christ can sin, anyone who does sin does not know Him)
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is
righteous, just as He is righteous;
( We have the righteousness of Christ, we practice righteousness)
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
(Living in sin is unrighteousness, of the devil)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(You cannot sin if you are born again, born of Christ, fact!)
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does
not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
( Fruit of the spirit within is the evidence, patience, kindness, love, etc)
I have been saying the same thing, and this is where the debate has been. If we are born again we are born a new man in Christ and we are freed from sin, and if we practice sin, we are saying through our practices that we don't believe we are freed from sin. Pretty simple isn't it?
The fruit of the Spirit is all physical behaviour and this is where Barny and I have disagreed. I understand what Barny is saying and he refers to the gift that God has given us in Jesus and there is nothing in us that adds or subtracts to that including minimum behaviour, this I agree with it is a gift and cannot be altered in anyway by us or anyone else. It is in us accepting this gift where we have differed. If I believe that I cannot sin then I will not sin, but if I don't believe I am freed from sin in this body, I will sin. Do you understand what I am saying here DHC? We struggle with faith to believe that we are freed from sin, and that's why if a man looks upon a woman with lust he is saying I am not freed from sin. The battle is in us to believe and through our faith the law is established in us. It is not something that we do with the exception of believing and accepting. We are still tempted by satan and the old man wants to constantly be resurrected but if we keep our eyes fixed upon Jesus we can overcome the temptation. We have victory in Christ. This has been my only argument.
When I refered to the theif on the cross I said that it was different because he was not able to grow up into Christ and was never able to show the fruit of the Spirit other than excepting Jesus and this was enough for him, which is also a fruit of the Spirit. It is not enough for us because we have to fight temptation and show the fruit of the Spirit, if we choose to do so. What we choose to do shows weather or not we are in the Spirit or in the flesh. If we are in the flesh we are saying that we are not freed from sin and so we practice lawlessness. So my argument is not with you as I understand it as you do. Barny however disagrees.
Here is an interesting thought for you DHC. How did the theif on the cross know that Jesus was innocent? Do you suppose that the theif believed in Jesus blindly or do you think that he knew who Jesus was?
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Thiscrosshurts
Active
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,630
@papajim
That way I can say none of my converts ever back-slid...
Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
You were(past tense) raised up with him and that thief so you were made alive in Christ 2000 years ago and your behavior is only a recent development.
How would that look like from where Christ is seated?
Would you flash in and out every time do something wrong?
Does God keep a big eraser handy next to the Lamb's book of life?
By this logic I should bring a gun when witnessing so I can dispatch these new believers before they have a chance to be tempted.
That way I can say none of my converts ever back-slid...
Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
You were(past tense) raised up with him and that thief so you were made alive in Christ 2000 years ago and your behavior is only a recent development.
How would that look like from where Christ is seated?
Would you flash in and out every time do something wrong?
Does God keep a big eraser handy next to the Lamb's book of life?
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Your right Thiscrosshurts, I can't find where I said this but it does misrepresent the gospel and my own beliefs. I apologize for saying this even though I can't see the context in which it was written, the phrase is wrong in it'self. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I will try and be more careful in the future to choose my words correctly.
