once saved, always saved?

[farout]

Dutch: I don't get your point. I used the lambs blood on the door post and those who feared they might loose their first born, was just a perhaps example that might of happened. From scripture it is essential that it is God and His keeping power we are saved and held in His hand for safe keeping. I am aware that you have a different opinion, and I accept you just as you are. This has been a debate that perhaps has been going on for centuries, by great Christians of the past. One way to know for sure is to ask Jesus when we arrive in His Kingdom. Blessings.

farout

 

[james1523]

It's not abut being stronger than God. I am stronger than my wife, but if she wanted to leave, I wouldn't force her to stay. (there are laws against such things
God loves us, he wants us, but he doesn't force us to stay.

2 Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2 Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2 Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

If you keep rejecting him, he will harden your heart and blind your eyes.
But God doesn't want anyone to die.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The comparison with husband and wife is a good one but is flawed in a number of ways.
Unlike husband and wife, God lives within us and so wherever we go, He goes. He's a permanent resident joined to our spirit. So we cannot leave him (where can we flee from His presence?), but only He can leave us (His Spirit leave us).
Biblically speaking God is the husband and we are the 'wife'. So your comparison is around the wrong way lol.
Additionally He is God, so we cannot equate Him on human terms like husband and wife, in this matter. It is not an equal relationship, God is God and we are not. He is everything and we are nothing.
Well God made certain promises (such as never leaving us nor forsaking us) that He is bound to keep.

 

[B-A-C]

Is it possible to resist the will of the Lord? There are things the Lord plans, and things he decrees, and these things happen, and will happen. But most of the time does he give us a choice?

Zec 1:3; "Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Return to Me," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I may return to you," says the LORD of hosts.
Zec 1:4; "Do not be like your fathers, to whom the former prophets proclaimed, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Return now from your evil ways and from your evil deeds."' But they did not listen or give heed to Me," declares the LORD.

Is it possible not to listen to the Lord?

Zec 7:9; "Thus has the LORD of hosts said, 'Dispense true justice and practice kindness and compassion each to his brother;
Zec 7:10; and do not oppress the widow or the orphan, the stranger or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another.'
Zec 7:11; "But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing.
Zec 7:12; "They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

Is it possible to harden our hearts towards God? Is it possible to refuse to listen to him?

Zec 7:13; "And just as He called and they would not listen, so they called and I would not listen," says the LORD of hosts;

Do we have the power to "ignore" the calling of God?

Zec 8:14; "For thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Just as I purposed to do harm to you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath,' says the LORD of hosts, 'and I have not relented,

Does God really purpose to harm some people for no reason? Or do we provoke him to wrath?

Rom 10:21; But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

Is it possible to reject God even when he is reaching out to us?

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did

Do we have the power to resist the drawing and Spirit of God? Could it be, that God gives each of us our own choice to choose him?

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Is it possible to turn away from God after we have received the knowledge of Jesus? Is it possible to turn back to sin?

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

He will never leave us, but is it possible for us to leave him?

Joh 10:28;; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

It's true, Satan or no one else has the power to take us from God, but are we free to walk away on our own accord?
Is it possible, that even after we come to know God, we can reject him for the things of the world?

Rom 1:21; For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22; Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23; and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

I believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God, but the love of God, is not the salvation of God, he loves sinners also.
Is it true that God deliberately chooses some to be saved, and deliberately chooses some not to be saved? Or does he wish that all would be saved?

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Is it possible we can choose to reject God and keep choosing to sin?

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

 

[B-A-C]

Did Adam and Eve have the ability to choose whether to eat the fruit or not? Why did God place the the in the center of the garden in an accessible place for them if he didn't want to give them a choice?
Did God cause them to make this choice?

Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

What about Satan? Did he have a choice to choose evil? What about the angels in Jude 1:6; ? Did God cause them to sin? Or was it their choice?
Do we have a choice? Or does God force some of us to "not" be saved?

 

[revbrad]

Exodus 32:

30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

[james1523]

Is it possible to turn away from God after we have received the knowledge of Jesus? Is it possible to turn back to sin?

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

He will never leave us, but is it possible for us to leave him?

Joh 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

It's true, Satan or no one else has the power to take us from God, but are we free to walk away on our own accord?
Is it possible, that even after we come to know God, we can reject him for the things of the world?

Rom 1:21; For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22; Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23; and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Jesus Christ ate and drank with sinners on Earth with the intent to be a physician to them, and now you are trying to tell us that this one who ate and drank with unbelieving sinners will leave one of His own because they have stumbled or fallen?

The bible says:
Ps 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

Under the Old Covenant the Holy Spirit did not live inside anyone, but under the New Covenant God has given us His Spirit, and furthermore we are one spirit with the Lord.
For this reason to say that we can leave God makes no sense. Wherever we go, He goes. Not only because He is omnipresent but also because He lives inside of us. The Lord will never leave nor forsake us also means we cannot actually leave the Lord. This is why it says 2 Tim 2:13 "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

and

Rom 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness?4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.

The problem with believing in conditional salvation is that it means your status as a child of God is also conditional. But the Bible teaches that we are children of God because He has given us His Spirit which cries "Abba, Father" and this has been a permanent change in our being so we are not merely temporary sons of God or conditional sons of God, we are forever sons of God.

An earthly parent would rarely disown their child if their child leaves them or misbehaves, and some might, but the perfect Heavenly Father will never leave one of His children.

No created thing separates us from God's love.. are we also not created things? It includes every created thing, including ourselves.

Matt 28:20 " ...And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.""

Believers also have the assurance of God to not allow any temptation to overtake us and lead us away from our salvation:

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.



And we have the promise that God will finish what he has started in us:
Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

The security of a believer's eternal destination is not based upon a shaky doctrine of man,
it is based upon
a) the living Spirit of Christ indwelling the believer and the permanent change in our inner man that this has brought. God has sealed us with His Spirit to signify that we belong to Him and He owns us and Eph 4:30 says we are sealed for the day of redemption.
b) the fact that we are now sons of God who cry 'abba, Father' and not merely sons in name only
c) the sovereignty of God to arrange all our practical affairs and our environment, like Jonah, who could not run from God's will. We can try to run away from God if we want to, but like David experienced and Jonah, we cannot out-run God.
d) the faithfulness of God to us despite any unfaithfulness of our own
e) The assurance that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our endurance
f) The faithfulness of God to complete His work in us - God does not do half a job, He starts what He finishes.
g) God's promise that He will never leave nor forsake us, even unto the end of the age.
h) God's promise that if we fall or stumble, like King David, He will uphold us so we will not utterly fall to complete ruin.
i) 1 John 5:4 says everyone who believes has overcome the world, there is not some who do and some who don't.

Anyway we can argue the theology as much as we like, but the experience of many Christians is God never leaves us nor forsakes, and I know some Christians who have done some pretty bad things, for which this has proven to be true.

Rom 5:10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

[DHC]

The Lord will never leave nor forsake us also means we cannot actually leave the Lord. This is why it says 2 Tim 2:13 "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

Hello James.

You made this remark:

"The Lord will never leave nor forsake us also means we cannot actually leave the Lord. This is why it says 2 Tim 2:13 "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

James your quotation was out of context. Your argument is citing 2 Timothy 2:13.

Here is your quotation with the other verses which provide the context.

11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Which states categorically that we must endure: "If we endure". Paul states that
salvation is not attainable unless one endures to the end. Paul does not say what
your quotation implies James. If we are faithless, He remains faithful, hence you are
saved regardless. If we end up in denial of Jesus, God will deny us! Unless context is
adhered to theology develops James. Your failure to consider context is disturbing.

 

[eldon]

as to resisting the Will of the Father,

yeah, I've done it.
alot.
I was supposed to call into the hagmann and hagmann report a while back and talk about something, instead it would appear the Lord put the same message on the show host's heart to talk about.
I was supposed to call a church to repentance. didn't do that either, heck, that was one of the first things i could say the Lord asked me to do. i think he expected me to chicken out though.
I was supposed to ask the same church if someone had a home they could let a friend of mine use for a midwife birth.. by that Thursday. in other words, asking 200 people if they would let effectively a total stranger have a kid in their home. I didn't even believe for a second they would, so I told her that i couldn't help her. she had her kid in a hospital, and CPS stole it, (as far as I know, I can say this truthfully)
I was supposed to share the gospel with 3 children in a bar. instead I had a few beers and left.
I am supposed to be exposing the shift in leadership that may have occurred in this country on a date you can find in the Bible and happens to be July 4 2012
I was supposed to be exposing the American train society(i think this was it) who may have black mailed Washington state/Seattle into putting a tunnel under the viaduct (as they will get a rail line through it) (something to do with chemicals in the water supply)
-Was supposed to draw a waking vision I received AFAIK from the Lord, I ended up waiting till I received a bunch more detail in my mind's eye which was about 6 months later. I'm probably supposed to be trying to identify which city gets nuked from what i saw. maybe I'm supposed to put it on my website, I don't know (not sure i want to ask)
I'm supposed to be with my wife (AFAIK right now). I've been resisting that but to be quite honest I'm not sure if she really is my wife. only met her 4 or 5 times, seen her maybe 6.
I've been getting very angry with God about the way he's making me do somethings about this.
in fact I swore I wouldn't be with her for another 7 weeks. (cuz I'm pretty sure the Lord told me i'd have to wait a week, so i said make it 7)


regarding testing spirits. I don't know about you but they are allowed to bring to my mind a memory of a spirit confessing Jesus Christ risen in the Flesh.
so I have to consider the fact that I really don't know anything.


so to make a long story short I think the Lord is a bit angry with me due to reckless driving
so he took a risk with me (this is allegedly what he told me) and led me, though I was deceived, into doing something that got me arrested. i did make a few mistakes though, had I done everything right I might not have even been arrested*, but the good news is someone who is in communication with demons (hopefully not myself) will get saved and her parents will "be destroyed"

anyhow, I've been pretty angry with God about the way he's been going about doing things with me so i ended up destroying his plans. yep. if you don't want to grieve God, don't swear what you see in your mind's eye will never happen. done that at least twice this week.
now the problem is some of the information about his plans came from my spirit, who was given permission to speak to me.
now we know from the Word that our words defile and deceive out spirit. so as to who's deceived I don't know any more.
what I do know is I'm about ready to commit suicide, just to find out if an angel of life really did swear to me that he wouldn't let me do it.
having told much more of my story to a friend of mine recently, when I got to this point he was more surprised than concerned. this didn't surprise me.
what I do know is I'm going to light the 12 roses I bought for my wife, on fire. no, never been together yet, we've only met in real life about 4 times, for whatever reason I wasn't supposed to let anyone know for a while. (she was given to me, at least i think, over 6 months ago. i have yet to find out for sure)
now I thought the Spirit told me due to my rebellion I'd have to wait a week, so I swore make it 7*. guess I'll see. I've had God tear up my oaths before.
I've also had him hold them to me.

* I had a dream in which I was informed to remain silent at my trial, but I was deceived at the time into believing my father would betray me (also in a dream) now it all makes sense. but since I've destroyed many of the Lord's plans he's probably going to let me go to jail for 30 days instead of defending me. (as far as I know the police department believes I'm telepathic)

guess I'm going to need to learn Hebrew though, i saw something written on the wall (of what i think was my conscience) in my minds eye the other day
I also woke up about 7 months before things started getting weird to God speaking to my spirit, i contemplated trying to write down what i thought i heard but clarity was withheld. no word yet on what i heard.

and I think much of what has gone on in the last month is also over my refusal to pray in tongues.
the last time I did. Satan showed up to tell me what i said. a few weeks later the Lord allegedly confirmed it.
Iam still pretty messed up about that.

oh yeah, the Lord may have told me today that when i told my friend that i considered suicide the only way to find out if this isn't a dream (not exactly what I said, but close) that; " what you said spoke volumes". and he may have asked me "why do you want to commit suicide"
my response was something the Lord allegedly told me some time ago in response to my response to a deceiving spirit [well I guess the burden of proof is on God, Who is Man that he knows who is speaking to him?"
and the Lord allegedly said: " you used my own word against me (who is man that he knows who is speaking to him), I hate that"

to make it that much more weird.
i had two fallen angels talk to me today.
one of them brought back a memory of my military service, then asked me "who taught man to make war?" and i can't recall what i said but he gave me his name as azazel and that freaked me out a bit, I allegedly had an angel from God speak to me about 3 weeks ago and that freaked me out a bit as well, i think the Lord told me to get used to it.

the second fallen angel lied to me as to his name (azazel), he asked me if i wanted to know the secrets of palm reading.
i would have thought that was funny if for the fact that they were released from their 5055 (also could be 5125.25*) year judgement on dec 21, 2012 and we're in the days of Noah by definition.
oh, and these bastards will speak to anyone. i wish i was just a peon in the kingdom.

*Enoch's 70 generation judgement is likely 70 degrees of the precession of the equinox, which is 72.22 years
BTW, the reason the word "ages" is plural in the bible is because this is not only not the end, but neither is the 1000 years after Christ comes back (after the giants being born right about 3-6 months from now grow up* in the underground breeding programs the NWO has set up and waiting for the watchers to come back
*if you think the tribulation is only 3.5 years long, you might ask, how long does it take a nephilim to grow to be 20 feet tall.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

You made this remark:

"The Lord will never leave nor forsake us also means we cannot actually leave the Lord. This is why it says 2 Tim 2:13 "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

James your quotation was out of context. Your argument is citing 2 Timothy 2:13.

Here is your quotation with the other verses which provide the context.

11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Which states categorically that we must endure: "If we endure". Paul states that
salvation is not attainable unless one endures to the end. Paul does not say what
your quotation implies James. If we are faithless, He remains faithful, hence you are
saved regardless. If we end up in denial of Jesus, God will deny us! Unless context is
adhered to theology develops James. Your failure to consider context is disturbing.

Hi DHC,
Please note the context of verse 12 - it is enduring to reign with Him, not to be saved from the lake of fire. Reigning with Him is a reward given to those who overcome, DHC, (also see Rev 3:21) and it is not enduring to be saved from the lake of fire. A view that we must endure to the end to be saved from hell, is categorically within the works-based, even Roman Catholic, mindset.

Salvation of the spirit from the lake of fire is by faith in Christ, and not of works, or human effort or endurance or merit, lest anyone should boast.
Let me put it this way.. if you have a child, they are your child no matter what. They do not have to "endure until the end" of their life to be or remain your child. This is why it says ""he cannot disown himself". As members of Christ's body as believers, we are part of Him. For Him to deny us salvation would be to deny Himself.
However, attaining rewards (or punishment) based upon how we live our life certainly is based upon our endurance.

 

[eldon]

James i would take issue with you because i was given something to tell someone recently.

and he has told me he has known for a very long time that it is his place essentially, never to deny Christ.
--meaning, it is likely possible this has been placed on his mind for that purpose.

so unless you have been given to tell folks that even if they do, they can still be saved, i would ask you speak more directly, or not at all.
thanks.

the Lord cannot break his word. those who deny him before "men" he will deny before his Father.

 

[james1523]

Denying Christ results in Him denying us when He comes back and results in loss of reward, not eternal salvation:
Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

 

[Ophel]

Denying Christ results in Him denying us when He comes back and results in loss of reward, not eternal salvation:
Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

This is the truth!

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC,
Please note the context of verse 12 - it is enduring to reign with Him, not to be saved from the lake of fire. Reigning with Him is a reward given to those who overcome, DHC, (also see Rev 3:21) and it is not enduring to be saved from the lake of fire. A view that we must endure to the end to be saved from hell, is categorically within the works-based, even Roman Catholic, mindset.

Hello James.

I do disagree with what you said James.

Endurance is in the life of faith and love to be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

1 Corinthians 4:12
and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure;

 

[will]

Dutch: I don't get your point. I used the lambs blood on the door post and those who feared they might loose their first born, was just a perhaps example that might of happened. From scripture it is essential that it is God and His keeping power we are saved and held in His hand for safe keeping. I am aware that you have a different opinion, and I accept you just as you are. This has been a debate that perhaps has been going on for centuries, by great Christians of the past. One way to know for sure is to ask Jesus when we arrive in His Kingdom. Blessings.
farout

Yes, that would be one way.
But another way is to make sure that we are listening to Him *now* (as in the present). We are given the most precious gift of all after we are saved by God's Grace, that is His own Holy Spirit. How then can we rely on our own intelligence, reasoning ability, and "past great Christians' wisdom" to understand the Scriptures -- containing God's truth, not human's ?

Rely on Him who is within us, who promised to guide and teach us using the Scriptures we consume.
It's strangely kinda the same concept as in... what's that word... oh yeah! "Growing"

 

[eldon]

i would be so bold to say James is Wolf.

 

[spirit1st]

It very simple ! The New Spirit He gives us CANNOT SIN ! Besides after salvation ? HE KEEPS US we do not keep ourselves ! He has Never lost even one child and never will !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
That the SEED our New Spirit is made from 1 It cannot be corrupted ! Only sin corrupts !


1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The CALLED can and many do fall away ! The elect cannot !
Our New Spirit is made after the image and being of our LORD JESUS!

We have His type mind and nature!

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

1Pe_2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

It our New Spirit that like our LORD ! Not our weak sin filled flesh !

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


1Co_15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are All a Spirit Being ! Our spirit is either perfect or defiled ? Salvation gives us a New Birth a brand new beginning !

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

I do disagree with what you said James.

Endurance is in the life of faith and love to be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

1 Corinthians 4:12
and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure;

This view is like a (bad, uncaring) parent disowning their child because they could not endure the sports day or the dentist or whatever have you. Some Christian may be enduring because they don't want to go to hell, and these probably haven't realized they are saved from hell by faith in Christ no matter what. But I will be enduring because I want to escape the persecution and trouble and stand before the Son of Man at His return and be approved by Him.

I believe the context in these passages is persecution and Matt 24 is speaking of the tribulation period. Saved means saved from those who would hurt us, our persecutors in the tribulation period and not eternal salvation. And I should add that the "end" spoken of here is not the end of one's life, but the end of the tribulation period.

Also see:
Jer 30:7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

I believe Jesus is saying if we endure through the tribulation period to the end of it, we will be saved from physical death and able to stand before the Son of Man at His return:

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Some refer to this escape as the secret rapture but I won't go into that. Either way, it is a salvation out of trouble that Jesus is referring to (whether by bodily protection and reservation, or rapture), and not salvation from hellfire.


To be clear that it is not eternal salvation from hell:
If it's something we can boast in (e.g. our effort or endurance), then it's nothing to do with eternal salvation from hell:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It is a common mistake to interpret the word "saved" in scripture to always refer to eternal salvation from hell. There is at least, salvation of the spirit, salvation of the soul, and salvation of the body (e.g. healing, Luke 7:50, or escape from persecution/danger).

But salvation from the lake of fire is definite for those who meet this requirement:
Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[spirit1st]

Salvation is a FREE GIFT 1 We do not earn it or work for it or live poerfect lives for it 1 It freely given by God thur the gospel of Our LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom_5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom_5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

1Co_1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;


Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You Do not buy a gift or work for a gift 1 It given free to all 100% !

Of course we do a work or Action !
We accept what He did by Faith and Him from our Heart [Spirit ] as our LORD and master Forever more! Or we never get the FREE GIFT1

1Pe_2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


The JUSt live by works !NOPE The just live by FAITH ! Faith in what our LORD has already done and Faith that He is our LORD !

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom_5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

JESUS CHRIST paid the Price for every sin we will ever do ! He died for All our sins 1 Why ? So He could make the few willing ? New Creatures 1

Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
That New creature CANNOT SIN ! Yes our weak flesh can still sin and does ! It never perfected !


2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hope this helps some to understand Salvation a little ? There lots more Good things to it of Course !

 

[DHC]

This view is like a (bad, uncaring) parent disowning their child because they could not endure the sports day or the dentist or whatever have you. Some Christian may be enduring because they don't want to go to hell, and these probably haven't realized they are saved from hell by faith in Christ no matter what. But I will be enduring because I want to escape the persecution and trouble and stand before the Son of Man at His return and be approved by Him.

I believe the context in these passages is persecution and Matt 24 is speaking of the tribulation period. Saved means saved from those who would hurt us, our persecutors in the tribulation period and not eternal salvation. And I should add that the "end" spoken of here is not the end of one's life, but the end of the tribulation period.

Also see:
Jer 30:7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

I believe Jesus is saying if we endure through the tribulation period to the end of it, we will be saved from physical death and able to stand before the Son of Man at His return:

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Some refer to this escape as the secret rapture but I won't go into that. Either way, it is a salvation out of trouble that Jesus is referring to (whether by bodily protection and reservation, or rapture), and not salvation from hellfire.


To be clear that it is not eternal salvation from hell:
If it's something we can boast in (e.g. our effort or endurance), then it's nothing to do with eternal salvation from hell:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It is a common mistake to interpret the word "saved" in scripture to always refer to eternal salvation from hell. There is at least, salvation of the spirit, salvation of the soul, and salvation of the body (e.g. healing, Luke 7:50, or escape from persecution/danger).

But salvation from the lake of fire is definite for those who meet this requirement:
Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Hello James.

You offer a theology that does appear very flawed.

Agree James that the quote from Matthew 24 is considered in the context. But endurance concerns the life of faith,
a life lived in Christ. To endure in the belief in Jesus from the first day to the last day of our lives. Whether or not
endurance occurs in a tribulation period is irrelevant. James please read the following verses, none of the verses
quoted are in the context of the final tribulation.

Matthew 10
21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

2 Corinthians 6:4
but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses,

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

James 1:3
knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

James 1:4
And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete,

 

[brakelite]

The comparison with husband and wife is a good one but is flawed in a number of ways.
Unlike husband and wife, God lives within us and so wherever we go, He goes. He's a permanent resident joined to our spirit. So we cannot leave him (where can we flee from His presence?), but only He can leave us (His Spirit leave us).
Biblically speaking God is the husband and we are the 'wife'. So your comparison is around the wrong way lol.
Additionally He is God, so we cannot equate Him on human terms like husband and wife, in this matter. It is not an equal relationship, God is God and we are not. He is everything and we are nothing.
Well God made certain promises (such as never leaving us nor forsaking us) that He is bound to keep.

Hi James. Marriage was a gift of God and came to man before sin ever appeared to mar i. Marriage is certainly an excellent metaphor for the relationship that we may have with our Father, God uses it many times Himself throughout the scriptures, both old and new testaments. In the OT Israel was often accused of unfaithfulness and called a harlot, or an adulteress as a result. The nation was often in a position where she was in apostasy from truth, from her Maker, yet while this was true God would always forgive, was always willing to accept her back. He would constantly send prophets and messengers to remind Israel of their sin and of His willingness to forgive if they would but turn away from their sin and repent and accept Him back as her Husband. The book of Hosea is a wonderful metaphor for the whole relationship that Israel had with her God.
Apostasy is a state of divorce. It is a state of complete separation.Undesirable certainly, not God's will assuredly yet love both ways must allow for it if one of the partners in the relationship chooses to go his or her own way. Think of your own marriage. If for any reason your wife decides to leave you, what would be your reaction? Hold her against her will? Is that love?? Plead for her to change her mind? Yes indeed! Pray for her? Amen! Remind her of the happiness you had together? Yes! Do all you can to secure and cement your relationship with her before its too late? Absolutely!! And all these things God does and more if we should tend to stray and be unfaithful. But He will never hold us back against our will if we choose, as Israel did many times, to turn away from Him. Why? Simply because love does not, indeed cannot, force faithfulness.