once saved, always saved?

[blackbear4110]

Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”f

Romans 1:5
5Through him (Jesus) we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Colossians 1:21-23
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Upon believing in the name of Jesus Christ to be saved, we receive righteousness by that faith (Romans 1:17), a righteousness that reinstates us with God. And through or from that faith comes obedience (Romans 1:5). Which is what James talks about, that works are proof of salvation not a means of obtaining salvation. But, we must continue in this faith, "established and firm" (Colossians 1:23).

I do not believe that God will force us to remain saved if we do not wish to be saved. (Revelation 2:21) Even Jesus Himself said in Luke 13:34, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." If Jesus did not go against the will of Jerusalem to reject Him, does it not stand to reason that He does the same with us today? And while actually and literally saying, "God, I don't want to be saved by You." would be one way of rejecting Him and denying His free gift of saving grace held out to us...do not actions speak louder than words?
It's obvious that if a person has not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, that person is not saved. It's by their actions, or lack-thereof, that they do not choose, thereby reject, Christ.
But what if the person has been saved at one point in time, and then they either decide to reject Christ or "fall away" from Him by their actions, or lack-thereof?

Let me explain:
When a person truly becomes saved, they have had an encounter with Jesus Christ that so affects their life they, upon receiving Him, begin to be transformed and changed into a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15). Just because that person has been saved by God's grace and mercy does not mean he no longer sins. But when he does sin, he should repent. (Mark 6:12, Acts 17:30, Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38, Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:1-9)
But what if this saved person does not repent? We now have a dilemma, because he was saved, justified, and sanctified through his faith in Jesus Christ. But now he has sinned and has not repented. If this person chooses to not repent ever, has he not by his actions, or lack-thereof, rejected his salvation? Or are you suggesting that someone can enter Heaven to praise and worship God for all eternity with the filthy blemish of sin that has not been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ, because the person did not repent and ask for that forgiveness?
This is not to say that the actions of man keeps him saved...but do the actions of man either accept or reject the salvation held out to him?

If by and through faith in Christ we realize our sin and ask for His forgiveness in repentance...then wouldn't the opposite (not asking for His forgiveness in repentance) be a form of "NOT continuing in the faith"? Wouldn't a denial of our sin, or a careless attitude of not repenting of our sin, be disbelief that Christ is the Son of God and that He is the ONLY Sacrificial Lamb Who could meet the requirement of and pay in full the death penalty for that sin? For it is coming to the realization that we are sinful humans in need of a saving God, Christ Jesus, and faith in Him that He is able to save us that is preached in the gospels and is what redeems us. Is it not?

I agree that there are a lot of people who think and claim they are saved...yet they indeed are not, for their lack of change proves it. You CAN NOT have a true encounter with God and not be changed or affected in some way. Unless you think God is less powerful than a semi-truck.
However, there are people out there who really did seem to be saved, their lives were changed, they had the fruit, there was evidence, there was the Holy Spirit...and then they suddenly decide to not have anything to do with God. I don't believe that person was never saved.


Also, one more thing and then I'll shut up: the first and greatest commandment is to love God with all our being. If we love God with everything in us (mind, strength, soul, spirit, heart, etc.), will we not realize that sin is an abominable transgression against Him? And if we love Him will we not want to stop sinning and repent of our sin against Him? Yet a lot of people who believe in OSAS, that nothing they ever do will cause them to "lose" their salvation...nor will anything they do be interpreted as a rejection of the salvation they once received...claim they love God, yet do not have a problem with sin. My neighbor thinks he's saved and going to Heaven, yet he cares nothing for God nor loves Him. His lifestyle speaks loudly of that fact. And I understand that not all who believe in OSAS use it as a license to sin...still, whether we think it's true or not, should not our foremost concern be to love God = not sin against Him?

Revelation2:1-5
1“To the angela of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

IF we live a life of repentance and have our faith firmly planted in Christ Jesus, then what does it matter if OSAS is true or not?
Don't put your faith in a theology. Put your faith in Christ Jesus, and love Him with all your being. The rest will come naturally as you being to be transformed and changed into a new creature.

 

[spirit1st]

I just do not think some people understand what salvation is ?
It a new birth ! We are a New Spirit being , that cannot sin 1 The new creature our spirit is ? Is made in the image of JESUS CHRIST!

That why He shares His throne with us and why He not ashamed to call us brother ! The flesh is nevrer saved nor is it ever perfected 1 It dies only because it full of sin !

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing1Co_15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Only our new Spirit is free from sin !
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life

Col_1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
He is the first creature we are the other creatures !

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We cannot see our new Spirit ! We must by faith believe what God living Word tells us about it !

People want to judge after what they see ! We are to judge by the spirit of the person !

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

satan got many tricked into thinking there is no such thing as Eternal life ! But God has sealed us and counts us already in heavenly places and declared us All ? More than conquerors and Over comers ! at salvation !

Some refuse to accept this truth 1 I have !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not
Only our New Spirit will never sin 1

GOD sees all of our flesh as a sinner ! that why it dies!

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Rom_8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

We cannot lose salvation because we are HIS BODY!
He not losing body parts always ! He never lost a child yet and Never will !

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Why would HE allow us to share in HIS throne or let us judge this world or judge the fallen angels ?

Because we have HIS MIND ! We will do just as HE would 100%

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
It HIS BLOOD that has joined us too the LORD !


Eph_5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

 

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite, very good points. I believe our righteousness , whether good or bad, does not affect our salvation or damnation. This is because Christ is our righteousness:
Phil 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

I believe the only thing which affects our salvation is whether we believe in Christ or not.

The matter of being in Christ is related to the matter of living in our sinful nature or living in our new nature, the nature which Christ gives us. This is by setting our mind on the flesh or the Spirit.
The condemnation for those not in Christ Jesus is the temporal condemnation of our conscience and temporal condemnation of God, and not eternal loss of the spirit in the lake of fire. In this sense it is to be treated as a disobedient child, not to be treated as if you were never a child of God.
Our soul is either in the realm of the flesh or realm of the Spirit. This depends upon how we live our life, do we set our mind on the Spirit or the flesh? But this does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit has joined himself to our spirit and we cry Abba, Father and that we are now one spirit with the Lord, and so are eternally saved from hellfire.
In contrast to the condition in Ezekiel 33, Christians have the Holy Spirit joined to their spirit and they are forever God's child. The Holy Spirit is a seal , a mark of God's ownership with us, so we will not suffer the same fate as the devil, the fallen angels and demons and the unbelievers. Unlike the simplistic black and white, heaven and hell theology of modern protestant Christianity, I believe in rewards and punishments as the scriptures teach and the early church taught. So I'm not saying that disobedient ones will get to heaven with a free pass and no consequences, I am not saying that at all. But I am saying that our obedience or disobedience has no bearing on our eternal salvation and status as a child of God, particularly after we have been joined to Christ and His body by the one Spirit, one baptism etc etc, and who we are is because of who Christ is and not who we are in ourselves.

John 3:16 says if we believe we have eternal life, not temporal life, and not eternal life that can be made temporal by our sins and disobedience. This eternal life is actually the eternal Christ (the Spirit of Christ) living within us permanently joined to our spirit. It is as difficult to undo this join, as it is to separate coffee from water in a cup of coffee.

Hi James. For the believer, yes, it is Christ's righteousness that guarantees him eternal life. But I am wondering of one who is deceived into no longer believing? For example, Eve? She didn't even need a Saviour, she was utterly innocent of any wrong doing, yet was deceived into believing God was a liar, disobeyed as a result, and lost her mortality as a result. To live, she then needed a Saviour, which praise God, He provided. But if she can lose her immortality because of sin in her innocence, then surely we can also should we cease to trust God, and take Him at His word. After all, as you said above,eternal life is granted to them that believe! Right? As for Adam, he also lost his immortality through deliberately choosing to disobey. Why should God lower His standards if we likewise choose to sin?

 

[will]

Yes, a great prayer and it shows that Jesus KNEW His Father and His plans and was relating them by this prayer to His disciples. I'm not sure HOW this counters what I said in my last post or what is it you don't think like anymore?

No, brother, not just a great prayer. And it's not just to show how the Lord knew His Father. I used to say exactly the same thing as you did. Why? because that's what I've been told that passage is *about*. But when I re-read that prayer again anew, with an empty head, the Holy Spirit use it to punch through my defenses, to show me what kind of a Savior I truly have. It goes beyond comprehension, it increased my appreciation for what He has done twenty-fold.

As Paul said, ALL scripture is useful. ALL as in EACH verse can be applied. I agree that the Bible interprets itself, but as Christian we are exhorted and instructed by thoughts
that are born out of scripture.

How exactly are those "thoughts" borne out of the Scriptures? Who do you give credit for the revelation? This is a crucial question. Your answer would tell me whether you are a growing Christian or not. Please don't take this the wrong way, I had the same question asked of me and I answered incorrectly. But that is the turning point of my growth.

Thoughts don't have to be as long as the Bible is and in most cases are NOT. In my walk, 42 years and counting, I have NOT been confused by bits and pieces of scripture. I have learned to take them into context with ALL of scripture and to see how these bits and pieces ADD up. I agree that the totality of scripture is required as a reference point, but it is NOT always efficient nor necessary when dealing with each other as Bible believing Christians.

Again, who did you give credit to for the non-confusion that you experienced in the 42 years being a Christian?
You are very blessed to walk with the Lord for 42 years without confusion.
I have been a Christian for almost 30 years and I spent most of that *in confusion* :crazy: until I finally was told that my dilligence, intelligence, and kindness has nothing whatsoever to do with my Spiritual growth.

 

[brakelite]

I just do not think some people understand what salvation is ?
It a new birth ! We are a New Spirit being , that cannot sin 1 The new creature our spirit is ? Is made in the image of JESUS CHRIST!

That why He shares His throne with us and why He not ashamed to call us brother ! The flesh is nevrer saved nor is it ever perfected 1 It dies only because it full of sin !

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing1Co_15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Only our new Spirit is free from sin !
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life

Col_1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
He is the first creature we are the other creatures !

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We cannot see our new Spirit ! We must by faith believe what God living Word tells us about it !

People want to judge after what they see ! We are to judge by the spirit of the person !

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

satan got many tricked into thinking there is no such thing as Eternal life ! But God has sealed us and counts us already in heavenly places and declared us All ? More than conquerors and Over comers ! at salvation !

Some refuse to accept this truth 1 I have !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not
Only our New Spirit will never sin 1

GOD sees all of our flesh as a sinner ! that why it dies!

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Rom_8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

We cannot lose salvation because we are HIS BODY!
He not losing body parts always ! He never lost a child yet and Never will !

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Why would HE allow us to share in HIS throne or let us judge this world or judge the fallen angels ?

Because we have HIS MIND ! We will do just as HE would 100%

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
It HIS BLOOD that has joined us too the LORD !


Eph_5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Hello. Spirit1st, I would like to speak of my own experience with the Lord.I first became a Christian nearly 40 years ago. After living a life of self indulgence, drug and alcohol abuse, and numerous other vices I care not to mention, my life was radically changed by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and His work in me. I now hate those evil things I once loved, and I now love many things I once found totally objectionable. Now this was not me who did this. I gve God al;l the glory, the praise, and all my gratitude for the many wonderful changes that He has accomplished in me, sometimes despite my hard hearted unwillingness to change. My own pride and selfish ego often stood in the way yet thank God He was longsuffering, patient to the infinite degree, and through years of loving persistent encouragement, rebuke, instruction, and discipline, He has managed to take me to a place where I am now more than willing to surrender all my life to Him and say, as the old song says, bend me shape me anyway you want me. And He does.
Now constanty I have seen in your posts that such a thing shouldn't happen. That only our spirits are changed. That the lives we live in the flesh are so corrupt that God has no power change them. You have repeated many times that obedience in this life is not only impossible, but to even desire to obey is heresy, and even evidence of an unsaved person.

Yet here I stand, a new creature in Christ, being changed by His grace and power every day into His image and likeness. Growing and increasing in maturity, learning of His ways, abiding in His presence, and even, dare I say it, walking in His righteousness that He has so graciously given me.
What you claim spirit1st as being undesirable, even impossible, stands here before you a living testimony to the power of God to change a life for the better.

 

[Stan53]

No, brother, not just a great prayer. And it's not just to show how the Lord knew His Father. I used to say exactly the same thing as you did. Why? because that's what I've been told that passage is *about*. But when I re-read that prayer again anew, with an empty head, the Holy Spirit use it to punch through my defenses, to show me what kind of a Savior I truly have. It goes beyond comprehension, it increased my appreciation for what He has done twenty-fold.

I don't know what 'defenses' you are talking about?
I'm not sure how you reconcile "showed me" with "beyond comprehension"?
Sounds a tad too mystical to me.

How exactly are those "thoughts" borne out of the Scriptures? Who do you give credit for the revelation? This is a crucial question. Your answer would tell me whether you are a growing Christian or not. Please don't take this the wrong way, I had the same question asked of me and I answered incorrectly. But that is the turning point of my growth.

By the fact that they agree with scripture and for the most part the Holy Spirit does this. Most scripture is NOT hard to understand, IF you have the Holy Spirit in your life.
Again you sound very mystical instead of being straight forward. The Holy Spirit works with each of us as He sees fit, there is NO formula or secret handshake.

Again, who did you give credit to for the non-confusion that you experienced in the 42 years being a Christian?
You are very blessed to walk with the Lord for 42 years without confusion.
I have been a Christian for almost 30 years and I spent most of that *in confusion* until I finally was told that my dilligence, intelligence, and kindness has nothing whatsoever to do with my Spiritual growth.

To whom ALL credit is due...God. Yes He has been a Blessing even when I have been faithless. I didn't say I walked for 42 years WITHOUT confusion. I said for the most part scripture has not been confusing, because I learned early on how to read it within context and proper hermeneutical exegesis. I had great teachers who were very dedicated to God and His Word.
I can't say that my diligence and kindness has nothing to do with my spiritual growth, because it does. My intelligence may not, but without wisdom and understanding from the Holy Spirit, it means NOTHING.

 

[spirit1st]

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Body of Sin is our flesh part ! There is Nothing good in our flesh !

Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Every child of GOD wants to live perfect sinless lives for our LORD JESUS ! But None of us can 1 Still we try daily to serve Him as perfect as we can ?

You know some think They are living more perfect lives for our LORD ! Really looking down on there brothers and sisters in the LORD!

It not wise! Because the LORD might have too humble them and He did our great brother Paul !

Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


If you think they are doing evil ? Just pray for them if you really love them or care ?

Mar_7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar_7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar_7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Because it NOT about our weak flesh !
It about our Spirit man which we a;ll are above all else!

 

[spirit1st]

Yes of Course we change outwardly !But it takes time ! and even then we are never perfect in our outward man! But the more we change in our heart [Spirit] the more we appear like our LORD outwardly !
I changed lots since salvation outwardly far from perfect outwardly ! but much different !

2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


Listen brake ! I was talking about when we first were born again ! Our flesh mind has not changed much at all !

In time we do change lots ! And the more we live though our inner man ? The more Christ like we will appear !

 

[Stan53]

Yes of Course we change outwardly !But it takes time ! and even then we are never perfect in our outward man! But the more we change in our heart [Spirit] the more we appear like our LORD outwardly !
I changed lots since salvation outwardly far from perfect outwardly ! but much different !

2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


Listen brake ! I was talking about when we first were born again ! Our flesh mind has not changed much at all !

In time we do change lots ! And the more we live though our inner man ? The more Christ like we will appear !

I suggest you use the "reply with quote" button when you answer someone.

 

[will]

Also, is there a difference between 1.) backsliding and making mistakes, and 2.) actually rejecting, turning from, and denying Christ/God?
Because, the Bible talks about sin (which is missing the mark, or missing the bulls-eye, when you were aiming for it), and then it talks about iniquity, or a life-style of sin (not even aiming for the bulls-eye). So, wouldn't a "backslid-en Christian" be one who is trying to do what is right and live for God, but makes mistakes in his flesh...while someone who actually rejects God and walks away from the free gift of salvation is someone who really doesn't care about loving or pleasing God, and God gives them over to a reprobate mind?

Sister,
Here is the problem with the above dichotomy: There is no room for the concept of "growth."
A concept which is literally everywhere in the Scriptures.

We all start with very little knowledge of who God is, what He is like, and why we should trust Him at all. The movement of the Holy Spirit in convicting us, and the sheer attractiveness of our Lord (the same attractiveness that caused 5000 people to follow Him to the mountain-side to hear Him teach) are the only two things that we knew when we were saved. The Scriptures call us "infants" at this stage.

From that point on, we need to grow. Not argue about doctrine this, and that, which is a very slippery slope to let our head getting "puffed-up" by knowledge (a biblical concept, by the way).

Even more silly to argue about labels such as OSAS.

It's true that OSAS is not in the Scriptures. But not because it's not "supported,"
it's not there because that's not what Christians should be preoccupied with.

We are given *one* commission by our Lord.
We are to make disciples, that means a more mature Christians ought to bring the baby ones to the path of Spiritual growth.
What does arguing about OSAS have any bearings towards fulfilling this commission?

Nothing else is important apart from the new baby believer being told through witness and experience of a mature believer that trusting God with *everything* is the right way to go. Tell me again, what does arguing about OSAS have to do with this process?

New believers (and let's not forget the other group of people: The unbelievers) need to hear how God is real to your life, not your view about this part of the Scriptures supports that label and the others don't.

Let's stop. And let's be humble (as in desperation, not the false-pride -kind).
Apart from God the Holy Spirit, we all have *zero* chance understanding anything out of the Scriptures, let alone telling others what is supported or not supported. So let's just ask Him first.

 

[will]

I don't know what 'defenses' you are talking about?
I'm not sure how you reconcile "showed me" with "beyond comprehension"?
Sounds a tad too mystical to me.

Mystical? No.
Supernatural. Yes.
If you never had the experience that God showed you something beyond your comprehension.
Be wary. You are still relying on your own strength and/or other human beings alone.

By the fact that they agree with scripture and for the most part the Holy Spirit does this. Most scripture is NOT hard to understand, IF you have the Holy Spirit in your life.
Again you sound very mystical instead of being straight forward. The Holy Spirit works with each of us as He sees fit, there is NO formula or secret handshake.

No secret handshake was implied by me.
Only empty head (free of presumptions).
Again, you seem to be very spooked by the concept that you call "mystical."
Do you believe in the supernatural?
How do you distinguish lessons you learn from your esteemed teachers (human) vs from God The Holy Spirit?
Mystical is babbling about something that you don't understand.
Supernatural is receiving from God what you can't from either yourself or other human beings.
Big difference.

I can't say that my diligence and kindness has nothing to do with my spiritual growth, because it does. My intelligence may not, but without wisdom and understanding from the Holy Spirit, it means NOTHING.

I think I get what you mean.
And I am not you, so I don't know what God has done in your life.
But for me, I have no kindness other than self-serving kind,
I have no dilligence, other than the self-serving kind... until the Holy Spirit of God show me through reading the Scriptures with the right attitude (once more, not mystical at all).

As for my intelligence... I just laugh

 

[DutchChristian]

common sense

Remember now: Adam and Eve

They were sinless and perfect whilst in the garden of Eden they had complete communion with GOD before they disobeyed The LORD, now if OSAS were true doctrine then would they not have fallen? ...it's Once Saved always saved right?

They would have been forgiven and forgiven and forgiven...

Forgiven, forgiven, forgiven....

That's once your saved always saved right? as supposedly you can never lose it..

But was there not a consequence for their sin?

The LORD Said to them..

Genesis 2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

(= basic non-OSAS principle as they could lose their life: they would die!)

We all know what happened, they both did eat: and death came and i am not just talking physical death as Adam and Eve died physically: but they originally had complete communion with GOD! in the Garden of Eden they were perfect, not one spot! They ALSO died spiritually!

Remember now: as they had no fallen nature at that time.

And the serpent came along and twisted the Scripture and turned this major consequence into a soft sweet honey coated sugar easy listening broadway LIE:

satan LIED to Eve:

Genesis 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But afterwards what happened? they did die!

Now today that filthy LIAR the devil is still performing his same old filthy tricks he did in back in the garden... and they had no fallen nature: who is to say the devil is not lying to us right now? of course he still does, he is even trained more today then he was back in the day of when Adam and Eve lived: and is saying ONCE YOU ARE SAVED YOU WILL ALWAYS BE SAVED NO MATTER WHAT = Ye shall not surely die: LIE

Of course satan will lie and try to trick you today just as he did back in the garden!

Genesis 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now if Adam and Eve in their unfallen nature fell and actually lost their lives and died, all creation fell physical (they died) and spiritual (they lost their communion with God) because Adam and Eve once had it, but sinned that one sin: then who is to say you can't lose it today?

Common sense folks....

Does God change?

Malachi 3:
6 For I Am The LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

if you sin today, there is still consequences regardless if you believe OSAS or not: i am telling you the devil is a filthy LIAR if Adam and Eve lost it all, so can you. Listen now there is no such thing as 'security in sin' because if you are in adultery, murder, or sodomy and if you do not repent of your sins....

you shall die

1 Corinthians 6:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

The unconditional 'Ye shall not surely die' OSAS = a LIE

 

[Stan53]

Mystical? No.
Supernatural. Yes.
If you never had the experience that God showed you something beyond your comprehension.
Be wary. You are still relying on your own strength and/or other human beings alone.

The Bible says God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him MUST worship Him IN Spirit.
Supernatural has NOTHING to do with God and the word is not even used in the Bible. So again I see nothing but mysticism here.
Exactly HOW can God show you something BEYOND your COMPREHENSION? If you don't comprehend it, He can't show it to you now can He. If you comprehend it, it's not beyond your comprehension. This is just plain equivocation. I rely on my understanding of HOW to read scripture, and the Holy Spirit to make it real to me. That is why Jesus said the Holy Spirit was sent to us.

No secret handshake was implied by me.
Only empty head (free of presumptions).
Again, you seem to be very spooked by the concept that you call "mystical."
Do you believe in the supernatural?
How do you distinguish lessons you learn from your esteemed teachers (human) vs from God The Holy Spirit?
Mystical is babbling about something that you don't understand.
Supernatural is receiving from God what you can't from either yourself or other human beings.
Big difference.

Whether you implied it or not, the sense is there. We should ALL read scripture free of presumptions, but what is MOST important is to read it with the help of the Holy Spirit. Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit?
Not spooked, just wary. The Bible teaches us to be wary. Many false teachers bring mysticism with their false doctrines. Supernatural has it foundation in the natural and I don't believe anything in the natural can be used to understand God as I said above, GOD is Spirit and we MUST worship Him IN Spirit and IN Truth.
I learn as anyone learns. I also learn from the Holy Spirit and have done so. However God will never teach us what goes against His written Word. Speaking in tongues is supported and taught by His word. The point is my spirit understands and is what is communicating and worshiping God. That is TRUE worship. You talk about comprehension not being useful and having an empty head (free of presumptions), and yet you do NOT practice what you preach. Only a mind empty from doubt and fear of the Holy Spirit can receive His infilling and speak in tongues as a result.
Sorry but your words and actions are diametrically opposed. In a sense, oxymoronic.

I think I get what you mean.
And I am not you, so I don't know what God has done in your life.
But for me, I have no kindness other than self-serving kind,
I have no dilligence, other than the self-serving kind... until the Holy Spirit of God show me through reading the Scriptures with the right attitude (once more, not mystical at all).
As for my intelligence... I just laugh

What does the Bible say about the fruit of the Spirit? Gal 5:22-23; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Eph 5:9-10; For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Again you contradict what you opened with. What you are saying here is that YOUR understanding and comprehension of scripture, is the ONLY truth and you don't care about what others say.

What you do Will, is say one thing but act another, and THAT is NOT a laughable matter.

 

[spirit1st]

They were sinless and perfect whilst in the garden of Eden they had complete communion with GOD before they disobeyed The LORD, now if OSAS were true doctrine then would they not have fallen? ...it's Once Saved always saved right?

The shows you do not understand about Adam and Eve and You have no understanding about Salvation !

Adam and eve were made from the Earth ! the New Creature GOD makes the few willing

Is Made from GOD perfect seed ! Big difference !

Adam and eve could sin !
The new creature cannot !

You just refuse to believe those scripture that reveal the new creature is made like our LORD JESUS!

Is it too much to believe JESUS CHRIST could not sin ? and if we are made in His image , why would we be different ?

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Is that scripture a lie ?

1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not
About that scripture ? another lie or just misunderstood ? Very plain to me with the correct understanding !

Because ? It only talking about our new spirit [the new creature ] Your judging by you sight ! your weak evil flesh !
Your rejecting to judge by faith or live by faith !

Your using your carnal mind and carnal understanding and cannot accept by faith what God has said !

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

You cannot understand the spiritual; ! You only seeing with your carnal thinking and it will never see the truth !

All the scriptures in the bible will not break though that darkness 1 Only our LORD can reveal the Spiritual to Us 1 We must want truth !

2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
I hope that is not you ? I hope your just a young christian lacking understanding ?

We need to be careful how we judge our elders ! Those that have walked with the LORD many. many years should have greater understanding ?

You said a lot of bad stuff to me in messages and even here , i think ?

I do not mind , because I love you anyway !

I understand when deeper spiritual trues are revealed it very hard for many to understand ! Some in time will get it ! others will never get it !

Because some love truth and others do not !

I posted lots of time how the new creature looks and is ! But I guess you rejected those ?

Rom_9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
People in there flesh bodies are NOT God children !
Only those who have been born of there spirit is !

There is nothing good in Your flesh or mine or anyone here on earth !

This is the seed God children [New creature ] is BORN FROM !

1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
We in our flesh are made after the first Adam
We in our Spirit if we have been reborn ? Are made like the last Adam
A Quickening Spirit ! Just like our LORD JESUS !

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That how the first adam was made !


Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
That what our New Spirit [New creature ] is Like 100%

Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

Act_15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

We who are Born of God live in great freedom !
Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

1Co_6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


We just do not do anything if we can help it that might displease our LORD JESUS!

Joh_8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1Pe_2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

2Pe_2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

does not make sense to the carnal mind ! But freedom in the LORD makes us want to Please Him even more ! It does not make us desire evil 1 The world cannot understand GOD perfect ways !
I do not worry about sinning or losing salvation or that He not going to be there Always or what i going to eat or will somesome kill me or anything else!

I know beyond a doubt i can walk though the valley of death at peace full of joy !

Jas_1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I would hate too live worrying about will I lose my salvation today ?

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.




1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Rom_15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.


1Co_15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[jason h]

if you sin today, there is still consequences regardless if you believe OSAS or not...... Listen now there is no such thing as 'security in sin' because if you are in adultery, murder, or sodomy and if you do not repent of your sins....

I believe there are consequences too but what are the consequences you see? Is it not going to heaven?(i dont know if thats what you mean, so im just asking) If so we are all in trouble since that list of sins you gave is not strong enough and we are all guilty of them. Jesus said if I look at a women with lust I've already commited adultry. If Ive been angry with my brother for no cause, ive already displayed im capable of murder. But there is an even worse sin than those. Its breaking the most important commandment. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Can you say you've kept that commandment for as long as you have lived? I know I havent and nothing I do will fix that offense to a Holy righteous just God. There is no security in sin but there is security in Christ. Im thankfull he is strong enough to get me home. I know some may have 'heard' me say that I dont care if I sin but that is definatley not the case. I get taken to the woodshed when im rebellious.

Most of the problem with the phrase 'OSAS' is that people think they know what the other person 'means' when they say that. Those who God is going to save are already saved in His eyes. But on our side of the fence it is im saved, im being saved, i will be saved. But no one knows for sure who those are or will be! So although OSAS is a true statement in the correct context, its by fruits in a persons life that reveal God at work by His Spirit. If someone claims to have made a profession but their life isnt distinguishable from the world, then something is wrong and claimming OSAS doesnt fix that. Of the 4 soils, only 1 sprung up and there was no question that it bore good fruit since the only options were quantity with zero not being an option.

Also the sins you mentioned, if they do manifest themselves as the unbroken pattern of ones life, then most certaintly there is something to worry about and no amount of claimming OSAS will help them. They need Christ! Once saved always saved is just an unfortunate way of summing up God's ability to finish what He started. A doctrine that comforts Gods' children who continually see their sin and shortcoming and wonder how they could ever make it in light of all the wrong they see in their life when compared to scripture.

There are many things im ignorant of in the word of God or things pertaining to Him but romans 8:29 helped me to see that my salvation didnt depend on me. This was wonderful since I was terrified I would mess up and somehow God would cast me off. Add to that the fact that I could always see my sin and I was in a bad place. Another verse that helps me is

1 john 2:19 -They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

[Stan53]

The shows you do not understand about Adam and Eve and You have no understanding about Salvation !

Adam and eve were made from the Earth ! the New Creature GOD makes the few willing

Is Made from GOD perfect seed ! Big difference !

Adam and eve could sin !
The new creature cannot !

You just refuse to believe those scripture that reveal the new creature is made like our LORD JESUS!

Is it too much to believe JESUS CHRIST could not sin ? and if we are made in His image , why would we be different ?

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Is that scripture a lie ?

1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not
About that scripture ? another lie or just misunderstood ? Very plain to me with the correct understanding !

I won't be so onerous in responding to this.

First of all there is NO doubt DC understands salvation so this is nothing more than a personal attack.

Adam was made from the earth, Eve was made from Adam.

You assume Jesus could not sin, but the Bible does NOT state that. What it does state is; For we do not have a high priest who is unable to feel our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are—yet without sin. Heb 4:15
If He could not sin then He would NOT have been tempted and the Bible would be lying. Rom 8:29 says;...to become conformed to the image of his Son. You wrongly state we are MADE in His image. We are made in God's image, tripartite, not in His Godly character. That same image is what Adam had and he sinned.

1 John is a great epistle and teaches us a lot about sin and salvation. Your problem is the translation you use. I suggest you bring your translation into the 21st century where we actually live, and not use 17th century English.

1 John 3:9; No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, because God’s seed abides in him. He cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18; We know that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin, but the one who was born of God protects him and the evil one will not harm him.


You seem to miss what John DOES say in 1 John 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.


The fact is that taking individual scriputres and trying to confirm a dogma is called eisegesis, which is NOT how to read and study God's Word. We are to use proper exegesis to read God's Word. The Bible is interpreted within itself, NOT with individual scriptures we use to try and confirm our predispositions and presumptions.

 

[eldon]

I won't be so onerous in responding to this.

First of all there is NO doubt DC understands salvation so this is nothing more than a personal attack.

Adam was made from the earth, Eve was made from Adam.

You assume Jesus could not sin, but the Bible does NOT state that. What it does state is; For we do not have a high priest who is unable to feel our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are—yet without sin. Heb 4:15
If He could not sin then He would NOT have been tempted and the Bible would be lying. Rom 8:29 says;...to become conformed to the image of his Son. You wrongly state we are MADE in His image. We are made in God's image, tripartite, not in His Godly character. That same image is what Adam had and he sinned.

1 John is a great epistle and teaches us a lot about sin and salvation. Your problem is the translation you use. I suggest you bring your translation into the 21st century where we actually live, and not use 17th century English.

1 John 3:9; No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, because God’s seed abides in him. He cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18; We know that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin, but the one who was born of God protects him and the evil one will not harm him.


You seem to miss what John DOES say in 1 John 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.


The fact is that taking individual scriputres and trying to confirm a dogma is called eisegesis, which is NOT how to read and study God's Word. We are to use proper exegesis to read God's Word. The Bible is interpreted within itself, NOT with individual scriptures we use to try and confirm our predispositions and presumptions.

thanks for those scriptures, its been on my mind to argue with Spirit1st about his comments that our new spirit cannot sin.

i disagree with that whole heartedly.
unfortunately, this isn't the place to describe what my spirit has done.. on its own free will independent of my physical mind.
(and there's been a few times where my spirit has surprised myself with how evil it is)
there have been things my spirit has tried to do but wasn't permitted to.

anyhow yes, Jesus did not sin.
he now commands us to be perfect as the Father is perfect last verse in Matthew chap 5.
it is possible.
practically all my sin today is conscious sin, and there are physical consequences.
I got sick for 2 weeks because it was not my place to rebuke an older man and tell him everything including sickness happens for a reason. (meaning all God's creatures are actually operating under a legal code as in a court of law) (deceiving spirits are permitted to talk to me practically all day long for instance. some of this is due to my sin, other reasons is God's testing)
that's just the beginning...

 

[jason h]

Hi Jason,

The fact is you DID exercise your will by accepting Jesus. Your will doesn't stop there, it continues your whole life. What many people DON'T do is sit down and COUNT THE COST. Be that as it may, God is always faithful regardless of how faithless we are or how little resolve we end up with, hence Phil 2:12.
God Bless.

Hello Stan53 thanks for the reply. I may have exercised my will but it was only after God moved 1st. I dont say that to try to keep to any doctrine. See, my story is one of basically being what you might call a semi-pelagian. Then about 2 yrs ago all that I knew changed. Things I used to like, i didnt anymore. I couldnt even read scripture because it didnt even read the same anymore. I was terrified beyond words for months. I was aware of sin. It was the biggest thing in my thinking. I thought I was a sinner before but obviously I didnt know. I didnt by any of my own power do this that Im even aware of. I had never really heard of conviction of the Spirit before. My thinking changed as well. I have a desire for God I never had before. BUT... i fought this the entire way. I was suspisious of God for Months on end. All I knew was that God was holy and real, I was a sinner, and the things of God were the only thing I had any desire for. This lasted for roughly 2yrs and like I said, i was either wrong at every point or fighting at every point. Jacob wrestled with God and when He saw He didnt prevail against him, He did what He had to to make him stop wrestling. Because according to God's choice, the promise of the seed to abraham was going to go through jacob, not esau. ~ romans 9:11 I hope I didnt butcher that up but maybe you see where Im coming from in my thinking since posts cant reveal the heart or motive or where a thought is coming from.

Purhaps not everyone goes through the same thing but I do notice a change I didnt put there. Im glad its there but I cant take credit for it. And Im afraid of even considering my will as being the thing that gets me home. Ive seen all too well what my will does if left to itself. That's why it scares me. I find true joy unlike any ive ever had in knowing it is a person, Jesus, and not a thing, or mechanism, a law or even me that will bring me to Him safely.

As far as regeneration, I call it that since the things I used to find attractive or do, dirty jokes, bad web sites, being so selfish towards my wife, different hobbies, etc... just stopped in a day. There are still lingering things that snare me and i have to cry out for help but that never entered my mind before. I just didnt care. Im still a sinner but He is a greater savior. I have a job where i sit down all day and can listen to headphones. Before it would have been some pretty crazy music. Now its hrs and hrs of mp3's(bible, sermons, etc..) I would have scoffed at that before. Now I do it because I enjoy it. I thank God for that since I dont know how I made that happen. Could that all go away? I dont know and for a while I was fearful it would and fearful of what that may mean. But eventually He taught me, is teaching, that I should trust Him and stop looking to myself to see if im able. Im not but He is.

jason

 

[Stan53]

thanks for those scriptures, its been on my mind to argue with Spirit1st about his comments that our new spirit cannot sin.

i disagree with that whole heartedly.
unfortunately, this isn't the place to describe what my spirit has done.. on its own free will independent of my physical mind.
(and there's been a few times where my spirit has surprised myself with how evil it is)
there have been things my spirit has tried to do but wasn't permitted to.

anyhow yes, Jesus did not sin.
he now commands us to be perfect as the Father is perfect last verse in Matthew chap 5.
it is possible.
practically all my sin today is conscious sin, and there are physical consequences.
I got sick for 2 weeks because it was not my place to rebuke an older man and tell him everything including sickness happens for a reason. (meaning all God's creatures are actually operating under a legal code as in a court of law) (deceiving spirits are permitted to talk to me practically all day long for instance. some of this is due to my sin, other reasons is God's testing)
that's just the beginning...

We ALL sin Eldon, and SIN is SIN so as far as I see, God doesn't have a severity level. There is sin that will be forgiven and there is ONE sin that will not. End of story. The particulars are NOT important to anyone. All we must do is confess(agree) with God and they are forgiven. We do NOT have a license to sin, NOBODY does.
I can't speak to you getting sick and why, but it would not be unlike God to allow us to experience sickness to get our attention. ONLY God knows what it will take to get our attention. IF we actually listened to God, it would be nice but NOT human.

 

[eldon]

We ALL sin Eldon, and SIN is SIN so as far as I see, God doesn't have a severity level. There is sin that will be forgiven and there is ONE sin that will not. End of story. The particulars are NOT important to anyone. All we must do is confess(agree) with God and they are forgiven. We do NOT have a license to sin, NOBODY does.
I can't speak to you getting sick and why, but it would not be unlike God to allow us to experience sickness to get our attention. ONLY God knows what it will take to get our attention. IF we actually listened to God, it would be nice but NOT human.

my case is a bit insane and i would prophesy the details but i would only be permitted to in person.
i've even recieved testemony of someone who was thrown to the ground by an angel or two, and couldn't breath for a few minutes.
i've been dragged out of bed on one occasion.
another, over a comment posted to to a forum, basically woke up at 4 am with my hands over my eyes in a position i don't naturally sleep in...