Trying to understand 1 John 3:7-10

[ShellBell]

Hi. I was reading 1 John 3 today (1st verse is my new sword for when I'm feeling attacked by the enemy). This part really confuses me though: 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. Also, verse 15 states: Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is the NIV, by the way.

So, as I read these verses, I really felt as if it's stating that we don't have eternal life if we sin, and if we continue to sin we are not really Christians. It makes it sounds like works are necessary to have eternal life. But, of course we all continue to sin in some capacity, and because of God's Grace and what Jesus did on the cross, we still have eternal life. Can someone maybe clear up what 1 John 3 is saying here? Thank you!

 

[TC4JC]

Go backwards and look at chapter 2. Verse 1. There John is writing that children of God can and do still sin. Paul in the book of Romans 7:14-25, tells us that indwelling sin still remains within us. Our sin nature is dead, but indwelling sin is still active.
The key to it all is understanding our identity in Christ. We have been declared righteous, however we will still sin after we have been saved. As we grow in Christ, we will learn to hate sin more and more. Just as God hates sin.
Many folks believe that somehow we can lose our salvation or that because we still sin, we must not be a child of God. Remember who is declaring us justified..., God Himself .
Habitual sin is what John is referring to. If we ask God to forgive us, and we or anyone else , sees no change in us, then there is a possibility we weren't saved to begin with.
Look back again in Romans 7:21. Our flesh so wants to contribute to our holiness. That is the flesh of self effort or trying to will ourselves into a state of righteousness. That cheapens what Christ did on the cross. And saying that only some of our sins were forgiven (the ones leading up to our asking God to forgive our sins). , would make it to where Christ only died for some of our sins. If He died for only some of our sins, then the cross isn't finished, and He would need to go back on it each day to die for more sins and future sins. Doesn't make sense!
So we sin as children of God. We learn to hate sin more as we grow. He has covered ALL of our sins. Our will and self effort cannot save us or keep us saved. Finding my identity in Christ has been freedom from bondage.

 

[james1523]

1 John 2:1 says we should not sin, yet it says if we do sin, Jesus is our advocate. 1 John 2:1 shows that we should not sin but that it is possible to sin and be forgiven.

1 John 3:7 - Dear children, - this is a term of parental affection.
do not let anyone lead you astray. - do not be deceived
The one who does what is right is righteous, - righteous here means to be pure, to live a righteous life, by submitting to God's ruling in our lives.
just as he is righteous. - Jesus is the only truly righteous person (1 John 2:1).

1 John 3:8
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, - means practice sin, live in sin, sin habitually,
because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. - sinning is the Devil's nature, character. From the beginning of time, the devil wanted to overthrow God's rule.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, - means they won't abide or stay in sin.
because God's seed remains in them; -
they cannot go on sinning, - a believer may fall sometimes, but God's seed and their regenerated spirit, will not allow them to remain in sin.
because they have been born of God. - a believer has had two experiences - one is to be regenerated in their spirit, and the second is to receive Gods' seed into them. These are two reasons why a person who has genuinely had this experience, will not be able to abide or remain in sin.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: - this is a test we can use to know who is of God and who is not.
Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, - the Greek word means to practice sin habitually, to live in sin. A person who lives in sin all the time is not of God.
nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. - love and righteousness go together. Love is the nature of God inside of us, and righteousness is the outward visible manifestation of that love.

 

[TC4JC]

I would like to add this. The only thing that angers God is sin. In fact He hates it.
But God isn't angry at Christians. He cannot be. You might ask how that can be?
It's simple. The cross of Jesus and His shed blood was enough to satisfy His requirements for atoning for sin. Therefore because of Who He is and what He has done, nothing of us, He satisfied His demand. What God demands, only God can provide for. That's why He is no longer angry with us. He cannot be. Even when we sin.

 

[Barny]

Can someone maybe clear up what 1 John 3 is saying here? Thank you!

Hi ShellBell,

We all agree that Christ's sacrifice cleansed us of past sin.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

It was only past sin that was remitted at the cross. Once we receive Christ there is no more sin that can be charged against us (as 1John 3:7-10 says).

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

Jesus truly set us free from sin.
John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Other scriptures that confirm 1John 3:7-10 include the following.
1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;

1Pet 4:18
if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Here we see 2 different groups described.
Group 1: Righteous and saved
Group 2: Ungodly, sinner, unsaved.
Note there is no 3rd group described as saved sinner.

Gal 2:15
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (with circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28), and not sinners of the Gentiles, (Gentile being unbelievers)

Firstly we should define sin, and this will help to understand why God says Christians cannot be charged with sin.
Sin is:
1: Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin.

2: Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17. Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

3:Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4. Christians cannot be charged with this sin because we are not under the law.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19

Scripture tells us many times that we're not under the law.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Rom 4:15
for where there is no law there is no transgression/Sin

Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. For Christians righteousness is not by works of the law as we're not under the law. Hence Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (transgression of the law, 1John 3:4).

Rev 12:9-11
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

And as for our obvious physical failings that still occur at times, this is not sin that can be charged against us. Also we will not profit by doing wrong either. God disciplines us (consider King David with his adultery/murder).
But we see that our flawed physical body is already "dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin", Rom 8:10. Hence we cannot be charged with sin.

We're a new creation in Christ, 2Cor 5:17
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Christians abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
To say a Christian "sins" is to say that there is sin in Christ.

I hope this helps.

 

[RJ]

Hi. I was reading 1 John 3 today (1st verse is my new sword for when I'm feeling attacked by the enemy). This part really confuses me though: 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. Also, verse 15 states: Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is the NIV, by the way.

So, as I read these verses, I really felt as if it's stating that we don't have eternal life if we sin, and if we continue to sin we are not really Christians. It makes it sounds like works are necessary to have eternal life. But, of course we all continue to sin in some capacity, and because of God's Grace and what Jesus did on the cross, we still have eternal life. Can someone maybe clear up what 1 John 3 is saying here? Thank you!

1 John 3:7-10
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

• To practice righteousness is to have God in you and saved, you are a believer and a professing Christian.
• Nothing here says we must be perfect but, it is just the opposite, Romans 8:1 : For there is no condemnation for those in Christ. Condemnation from what...sin!
• The key here is "makes a practice of sinninig". This is talking about willfull , un-repentant sin. Example: a homosexual that says they are Christian, has Christ in them but has gay pride and is totally un-repentant of their sin (practice sinning), this is not of God and no Christian at all. There will certainly be homosexual Christians go to heaven, because they are repentant and working on not sinning but still may be struggling with ceratin aspects of that sin. This would not be different with any other sin.
• Take a look at Romans 7 and read about how Paul struggled with sin, how he could'nt always do what he wanted to and did things he didn't want to do. That is why he followed up with Roman 8:1.
• Having eternal life does not mean that you will be totally void of all sin. God once told the ancients, that if they failed just one tiny element of the law, then they failed the entire law. The same would be with sining. If totally not sinning was a requirement, then you would have to eliminate all sin in your life, even the smallest, probablly even the ones you may not even see.
• Of course there are different opinions on all this. For some reason others will tell you that if you have Christ in you, you can not sin. This is just simply not true. I think it is a cop-out. If Christ is in, there is no condemnation. If you didn't have the sin, why would God tell you that there is no condemnation for doing it. It is up to you. Read the bible. Read what Paul has to say in Ro 7 and 8 and you have to make your interpretation.
• As far as I am concerned, be of good courage and read Romans 8:1, one more time!

 

[RJ]

It was only past sin that was remitted at the cross. Once we receive Christ there is no more sin that can be charged against us (as 1 John 3:7-10 ays).

With all due respect and in love, this is simply not what the above verse says, your reply is totally misleading. Where does it say here or anywhere that the cross was just for past sins. If you had no sin why does Paul tell us that there is no condemnation for those in Christ in Ro 8 ? If you have no sin, how can you have no condemnation for something you dont have in the first palce?

 

[Barny]

It was only past sin that was remitted at the cross. Once we receive Christ there is no more sin that can be charged against us (as 1 John 3:7-10 ays).

With all due respect and in love, this is simply not what the above verse says, your reply is totally misleading. Where does it say here or anywhere that the cross was just for past sins. If you had no sin why does Paul tell us that there is no condemnation for those in Christ in Ro 8 ? If you have no sin, how can you have no condemnation for something you dont have in the first palce?

Hi RJ,
Thanks for your question. We should always welcome respectful discussions.

Below are a number of Bible versions showing how it's "past" sin that is spoken of in Rom 3:25.
RSV Bible
whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;
Lexham English Bible
whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
J.B Phillips Bible
God has appointed him as the means of propitiation, a propitiation accomplished by the shedding of his blood, to be received and made effective in ourselves by faith. God has done this to demonstrate his righteousness both by the wiping out of the sins of the past (the time when he withheld his hand), and by showing in the present time that he is a just God and that he justifies every man who has faith in Jesus Christ.
ESV Bible
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Douay-Rheims American version
Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins
Darby Bible
whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God;
Complete Jewish Bible
God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past;
Common English Bible
Through his faithfulness, God displayed Jesus as the place of sacrifice where mercy is found by means of his blood. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness in passing over sins that happened before,
American Standard Version
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
NKJV Bible
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

I think you would agree that all the above Bible versions make it clear that Rom 3:25,, refers to "past" sin being remitted.

We both agree that it's obvious that Christians are not perfect in our physical behavior.
But we see in scripture that these failings in Christians are not "sin" (as defined in scripture) that can be charged against us.

When we see another Christian do we see the physical man with their varying degrees of failures? And if this is the way we should view another are we also judging them, thinking that because they're lifestyle might not be as good as another's then such may be lost?

OR, do you see Christ in each other?
2Cor 5:16,17
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Christians abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1 John 3:5
I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20.

If our life is hid with Christ in God, and in Christ there is no sin, how can we then be charged with sin?
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Only "past" sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3::25,.), hence once we receive Christ there is no more subsequent sin that can be charged against us. Christ's sacrifice dealt with sin once and finally (unlike the yearly sacrifice of bulls/goats).
This is confirmed in other scriptures as well.
1 Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him,(Rom 6:6.): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6.) hath ceased from sin;

1John 3:9.
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Regarding your question about Rom 8:2, I don't understand your point.
Nobody is saying there never was sin in the first place. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Rom 3:23.
But once we receive Christ there is no sin that can be charged against us. That means there is no condemnation for those in Christ, Rom 8:1.

All "sin" that Christians commit is outside the body of Christ that they abide in.
1Cor 6:15-19 S
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot(Hagar, who is symbollic for righteousness by works of the law, which is unbelief in Jesus)? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Flee sexual immorality (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law). Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in), but he who commits sexual immorality (with Hagar) sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

How could a Christian become a sinner?
They could make themselves a sinner through spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar (who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
To be under the law will only result in one being found guilty of all the law, James 2:10.
Any Christian who turns back to the law to determine their righteousness is fornicating with Hagar. This is unbelief in Jesus.

Note God's will.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10.): that you should abstain from sexual immorality; (with Hagar, symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.)

Believing on Jesus we're sanctified (Heb 10:10) and our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Because of Christ's covering Christians cannot be charged with sin (there is no condemnation to those in Christ, Rom 8:1)

The only way to undo all this is to deny him (Tit 1:16.) through works of the law for righteousness (which is spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law). This is the "willful sin" that Heb 10:26 speaks of.

 

[TC4JC]

The Bible teaches us that the only way to atone for sins is through the shedding of blood. (Lev.17:11).
If Christ atoned for only my past sin(before I came to salvation), then what are my present sins being atoned with? My future ones?
I understand I'm not being charged with these sins, but because God is immutable, something or Someone is being charged with these sins. God is a God of justice. No sin will ever be unatoned for. So does Christ have to go back to the Cross to shed more blood? The obvious answer is no. So shouldn't that tell us He atoned for all my sins? Not just past ones.

 

[Barny]

The Bible teaches us that the only way to atone for sins is through the shedding of blood. (Lev.17:11).
If Christ atoned for only my past sin(before I came to salvation), then what are my present sins being atoned with? My future ones?
I understand I'm not being charged with these sins, but because God is immutable, something or Someone is being charged with these sins. God is a God of justice. No sin will ever be unatoned for. So does Christ have to go back to the Cross to shed more blood? The obvious answer is no. So shouldn't that tell us He atoned for all my sins? Not just past ones.

Hi TC4JC,

When God says in Rom 3:25, that it was "past" sin that was remitted at the cross, then we should accept Him at His word.

I suggest that the problem lies with man's traditions where they used the term "sin" in an indiscriminate way thus causing error in understanding scripture.

So how is any wrong a Christian does subsequent to receiving Christ, dealt with?
Firstly, remember that we walk by faith.
Christians have been baptized into Christ's death, Rom 6:3
Our old man was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.

Hence that flawed physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3.), why would God still speak in terms of saying Christians still "sin"?
We abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
To say a Christian sin is to say that there is sin in Christ.

So any wrong that we do after receiving Christ is not counted as sin to be charged against the new creation because that physical part of us is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

BTW, Christians cannot get away with doing wrong though. God disciplines us if we do.

 

[TC4JC]

I think I do accept Him at His word. However, we can agree on this? That we disagree regarding this issue . No sense in going back and forth. The Holy Spirit will be the One to illuminate .

 

[DHC]

Hi RJ,
Below are a number of Bible versions showing how it's "past" sin that is spoken of in Rom 3:25.

American Standard Version
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
NKJV Bible
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Hello Barny.

Though we both place a great emphasis on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are places where
your interpretation is faulty, Barny.

The context of (Romans 3) is the administration of God's plan in human history. Paul is simply
claiming that the 'former sins' had not been taken into account. That is, all sin prior to the the
age of the New Covenant in Christ have been ignored Barny. The context of chapter three
of Romans is the new age of Grace as opposed to the former age, of the works of the law.

You are not alone in ignoring context Barny, it is probably mankinds greatest failing throughout
church history. Read chapter three again and again, and you will see that Paul is not
saying our past sins only are forgiven. Paul is not talking in a personal sense but in the general
overview of God's plan in history. Paul is saying that past offenses before the Christ are not taken
into account. RJ is correct in his assertion on this point Barny.

 

[judge not]

Hi ShellBell,

We all agree that Christ's sacrifice cleansed us of past sin.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

It was only past sin that was remitted at the cross. Once we receive Christ there is no more sin that can be charged against us (as 1John 3:7-10 says).

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

Jesus truly set us free from sin.
John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Other scriptures that confirm 1John 3:7-10 include the following.
1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;

1Pet 4:18
if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Here we see 2 different groups described.
Group 1: Righteous and saved
Group 2: Ungodly, sinner, unsaved.
Note there is no 3rd group described as saved sinner.

Gal 2:15
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (with circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28), and not sinners of the Gentiles, (Gentile being unbelievers)

Firstly we should define sin, and this will help to understand why God says Christians cannot be charged with sin.
Sin is:
1: Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin.

2: Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17. Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

3:Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4. Christians cannot be charged with this sin because we are not under the law.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19

Scripture tells us many times that we're not under the law.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Rom 4:15
for where there is no law there is no transgression/Sin

Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. For Christians righteousness is not by works of the law as we're not under the law. Hence Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (transgression of the law, 1John 3:4).

Rev 12:9-11
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

And as for our obvious physical failings that still occur at times, this is not sin that can be charged against us. Also we will not profit by doing wrong either. God disciplines us (consider King David with his adultery/murder).
But we see that our flawed physical body is already "dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin", Rom 8:10. Hence we cannot be charged with sin.

We're a new creation in Christ, 2Cor 5:17
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Christians abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
To say a Christian "sins" is to say that there is sin in Christ.

I hope this helps.

When the Bible says we are no longer under the Law, it usually means under the penalty of sin.
the Law shows us what is and what is not sin.
the word " under " shows what process justifies us.
It does not invalidate the criteria upon which righteousness is defined.

 

[Barny]

Hello Barny.

Though we both place a great emphasis on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are places where
your interpretation is faulty, Barny.

The context of (Romans 3) is the administration of God's plan in human history. Paul is simply
claiming that the 'former sins' had not been taken into account. That is, all sin prior to the the
age of the New Covenant in Christ have been ignored Barny. The context of chapter three
of Romans is the new age of Grace as opposed to the former age, of the works of the law.

You are not alone in ignoring context Barny, it is probably mankinds greatest failing throughout
church history. Read chapter three again and again, and you will see that Paul is not
saying our past sins only are forgiven. Paul is not talking in a personal sense but in the general
overview of God's plan in history. Paul is saying that past offenses before the Christ are not taken
into account. RJ is correct in his assertion on this point Barny.

Hi DHC,

Yes, the gospel of Christ is our main emphasis.
We may view things differently on the periphery at times but this does not detract from our foremost goal of preaching the gospel of Christ.
I will consider your point about Rom 3:25.

As the OP is about 1John 3:7-10 it is clear that Christians "cannot sin" as this scripture states. This is describing the position of the Christian, the new creation, whose life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Barny]

When the Bible says we are no longer under the Law, it usually means under the penalty of sin.
the Law shows us what is and what is not sin.
the word " under " shows what process justifies us.
It does not invalidate the criteria upon which righteousness is defined.

Yes, the law is the measure whereby righteousness is measured.
However, Christians are not under the law for righteousness.
Instead, it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

 

[RJ]

Hi RJ,
Thanks for your question. We should always welcome respectful discussions.

Below are a number of Bible versions showing how it's "past" sin that is spoken of in Rom 3:25.
RSV Bible
whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;
Lexham English Bible
whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
J.B Phillips Bible
God has appointed him as the means of propitiation, a propitiation accomplished by the shedding of his blood, to be received and made effective in ourselves by faith. God has done this to demonstrate his righteousness both by the wiping out of the sins of the past (the time when he withheld his hand), and by showing in the present time that he is a just God and that he justifies every man who has faith in Jesus Christ.
ESV Bible
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Douay-Rheims American version
Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins
Darby Bible
whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God;
Complete Jewish Bible
God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past;
Common English Bible
Through his faithfulness, God displayed Jesus as the place of sacrifice where mercy is found by means of his blood. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness in passing over sins that happened before,
American Standard Version
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
NKJV Bible
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

I think you would agree that all the above Bible versions make it clear that Rom 3:25,, refers to "past" sin being remitted.

We both agree that it's obvious that Christians are not perfect in our physical behavior.
But we see in scripture that these failings in Christians are not "sin" (as defined in scripture) that can be charged against us.

When we see another Christian do we see the physical man with their varying degrees of failures? And if this is the way we should view another are we also judging them, thinking that because they're lifestyle might not be as good as another's then such may be lost?

OR, do you see Christ in each other?
2Cor 5:16,17
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Christians abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1 John 3:5
I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20.

If our life is hid with Christ in God, and in Christ there is no sin, how can we then be charged with sin?
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Only "past" sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3::25,.), hence once we receive Christ there is no more subsequent sin that can be charged against us. Christ's sacrifice dealt with sin once and finally (unlike the yearly sacrifice of bulls/goats).
This is confirmed in other scriptures as well.
1 Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him,(Rom 6:6.): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6.) hath ceased from sin;

1John 3:9.
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Regarding your question about Rom 8:2, I don't understand your point.
Nobody is saying there never was sin in the first place. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Rom 3:23.
But once we receive Christ there is no sin that can be charged against us. That means there is no condemnation for those in Christ, Rom 8:1.

All "sin" that Christians commit is outside the body of Christ that they abide in.
1Cor 6:15-19 S
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot(Hagar, who is symbollic for righteousness by works of the law, which is unbelief in Jesus)? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Flee sexual immorality (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law). Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in), but he who commits sexual immorality (with Hagar) sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

How could a Christian become a sinner?
They could make themselves a sinner through spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar (who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
To be under the law will only result in one being found guilty of all the law, James 2:10.
Any Christian who turns back to the law to determine their righteousness is fornicating with Hagar. This is unbelief in Jesus.

Note God's will.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10.): that you should abstain from sexual immorality; (with Hagar, symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.)

Believing on Jesus we're sanctified (Heb 10:10) and our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Because of Christ's covering Christians cannot be charged with sin (there is no condemnation to those in Christ, Rom 8:1)

The only way to undo all this is to deny him (Tit 1:16.) through works of the law for righteousness (which is spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law). This is the "willful sin" that Heb 10:26 speaks of.[/QUOTE

• Sure, respectful dialogue is the key. I see from the above, we disagree on a lot. I will just reply to the first part, otherwise this would be too lengthy and put people off.
• Romans 3:25 and the discussion of past sin.

1. For me, Romans is refering to past sins during the Old Covenant
2. As in the American Standard version, the "passing over of sins". That is what God did under the Old Covenant laws and sacrificial system. Every year, ending on the "Day of Atonement", God would "pass over"..cover over, the sins of the participant's past year of sins. And, the people would have to do this year in and year out; God never considered their future sins.
3. Jesus changed all of that. He was the final and ever-lasting atonement and unlike the priests before him, he sat down for all eternity. The Old Covenant priests could not do that because their job was never complete.
4. Jesus is the same then, now and tomorrow and under the New Covenant all sins, past, present and future have been "taken away" forever, not just passed over for future atonement, again, he was our final atonement!

 

[RJ]

Hi TC4JC,

When God says in Rom 3:25, that it was "past" sin that was remitted at the cross, then we should accept Him at His word.

I suggest that the problem lies with man's traditions where they used the term "sin" in an indiscriminate way thus causing error in understanding scripture.

So how is any wrong a Christian does subsequent to receiving Christ, dealt with?
Firstly, remember that we walk by faith.
Christians have been baptized into Christ's death, Rom 6:3
Our old man was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.

Hence that flawed physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3.), why would God still speak in terms of saying Christians still "sin"?
We abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
To say a Christian sin is to say that there is sin in Christ.

So any wrong that we do after receiving Christ is not counted as sin to be charged against the new creation because that physical part of us is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

BTW, Christians cannot get away with doing wrong though. God disciplines us if we do.

When God says in Rom 3:25, that it was "past" sin that was remitted at the cross, then we should accept Him at His word.
No, this was not saying that Jesus died on the cross for only past sins.
"whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show Gods righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."

• forebearance: paintence, love, kindness.....because of these he overlooked former sins. This is referring to and, due to the forebearance of God, he had passed over former sins....This only occured in the Old Covenant and by way of the law and sacrificial system. This always ended in the "Day of Atonement", had to be repeated yearly, for thousands of years and was to "pass over" past sins and never for future sins, that would not come until the next year.
• Christ died one time, for all and for ever. This is for past, present, and future failures. Unlike the many High Priests before him, Jesus finished his work on the cross and sat down for all eternity. He didn't "pass over" sins...he took them away!!!
• So any wrong that we do after receiving Christ is not counted as sin to be charged against the new creation .. That's right, wrong doing (sin) we will commit. We will not "practice" it, we will be repentant of it but, sin non-the-less. See here...you said it yourself....future sins! But no condemnation for them!

 

[judge not]

Yes, the law is the measure whereby righteousness is measured.
However, Christians are not under the law for righteousness.
Instead, it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

In Rom 3:31 Paul says " Is the Law void through faith? NO. On the
contrary we establish or confirm the Law."

In Romans 10:4 - when the verse says " For Christ is the end of the Law......" it means Christ is the purpose of the Law, it
doesn't mean Christ ended the Law.
"end" in this context in Rom 10:4 is the same Greek word telos- used in 1 Tim 1:5 which says " now the end (telos-purpose) of the commandment is love.."
end can mean the goal or ultimate objective not the termination of something which is being suggested by some.

 

[james1523]

Christians are not under law (written law of Moses) for objective righteousness,
but Christians are under the law (inward, of the Spirit) for subjective righteousness.

Jesus died for all sins from eternity past to eternity future. In our experience, Jesus died for only our past sins, i.e. our future sins are not forgiven until we confess them.

 

[DHC]

Hello Judgenot.

What a marvelous letter is the letter to the Romans and such a powerful letter. Without any doubt
the most quoted letter from the Bible in Christian literature! Alas Judgenot, it is also the most
misunderstood letter in the entire Bible. For some unknown reason nearly everyone miss reads and
miss quotes the letter to the Romans.

You said Judgenot in post # 18.

In Rom 3:31 Paul says " Is the Law void through faith? NO. On the
contrary we establish or confirm the Law."

I hope you were following Paul's argument when Paul made that statement.

Romans 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we
establish the Law.

Because if you were following Paul's train of thought you would have realised that
Paul was simply saying. That the law grants the knowledge of sin! Though we must
also be aware that the written law applies only to those 'under the law' (Hebrews).

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,
so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the
Law comes the knowledge of sin.

So simple Judgenot, Paul is talking about the Jewish preoccupation with the written law.
Paul is telling the Jews that righteousness is not a consequence of obedience to the
written law. On the contrary Judgenot, the law makes a person aware that they are far
from the path of righteousness. Paul by no means is telling the Gentiles that they must
obey the law. If you have been taught this then you are gravely mistaken.