Is a being a true believer different than simply truly believing?

[TaylorDonBarret]

I think we can all agree that a "true believer" has the Spirit of Christ living inside of them and is repentant, loves God, and obeys Christ to the best of their ability.

But is everyone who truly believes a true believer?

Is it possible for someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin?

The bible clearly teaches that true believers will be saved, and at the same time teaches that people who practice unrepentant sin will not be saved. So, is the scripture saying that it is strictly impossible for a true believer to practice unrepentant sin? Or could the scripture be saying something else?

 

[Cturtle]

I think we can all agree that a "true believer" has the Spirit of Christ living inside of them and is repentant, loves God, and obeys Christ to the best of their ability.

But is everyone who truly believes a true believer?

Is it possible for someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin?

The bible clearly teaches that true believers will be saved, and at the same time teaches that people who practice unrepentant sin will not be saved. So, is the scripture saying that it is strictly impossible for a true believer to practice unrepentant sin? Or could the scripture be saying something else?

I think that the scriptures that point to unrepentant sin....are those of the world who have not given their lives to Jesus. The one's that have surrendered their life to Jesus, have come under the covenant of grace, that the Blood of Jesus has purchased for us. And as they renew their minds, or change their thinking (the true meaning of the word repent), everyday they are becoming more like Jesus, and learning of the Love that the Father has for us.

It is not impossible for us as believers to learn to walk in God's wonderful grace for us. But we have to stop focusing on the sin and turn our focus onto our Loving Savior, who paid the price for that sin. The Bible says that when our focus is on sin our own heart will condemn us. And when we loose fellowship with the Father, then that is when we are tempted to fall into fleshly ways. Because we end trying to do things without God's help....without the Help of the Holy Spirit, (which is the only way to be successful or victorious in the Christian walk).

That was the reason for the Law to show us that in our own strength we will fail every time! It is only by the grace of God that we can stand before Him, fully righteous, even when we made a mistake 2 minutes ago. Because of the Blood of Jesus, who took the punishment for our sins.
Blessings!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I think we can all agree that a "true believer" has the Spirit of Christ living inside of them and is repentant, loves God, and obeys Christ to the best of their ability.

But is everyone who truly believes a true believer?

Is it possible for someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin?

The bible clearly teaches that true believers will be saved, and at the same time teaches that people who practice unrepentant sin will not be saved. So, is the scripture saying that it is strictly impossible for a true believer to practice unrepentant sin? Or could the scripture be saying something else?

Brother you have forgotten about Grace. Many Believers have adictions that can go on for years and years and this does not take away their salvation.

 

[RJ]

Is it possible for someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin?

Of course not!

The bible clearly teaches that true believers will be saved, and at the same time teaches that people who practice unrepentant sin will not be saved.

Brother, stop right there...there is no value to go any further with some hypothetical.....you can't out-do, massage or change the truth!! It is what it is!

I think we can all agree that a "true believer" has the Spirit of Christ living inside of them and is repentant, loves God, and obeys Christ to the best of their ability.

A great Biblical definition!

But is everyone who truly believes a true believer?

What?...You state what a "true" believer is then you ask if they truly believe? How does one truly believe but is not a true believer...that makes no sense?!
Maybe you're talking about a Head Christian vs. a heart Christian?

• A Head Christian "knows of" Jesus and God.
• A Heart Christian "knows" Jesus and God.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

i am saying, because someone truly believes, does that necessarily make them a true believer?

for example, we know that a true believer not only truly belives, but also has The Holy Spirit, has repented of sin, loves God, tries their best to obey Him.

but what i am asking is, does everyone who truly believes also have all those attributes? i would say no.

there is a theology that most have accepted that says that everyone who truly believes is a true believer. but i disagree. from the bible and from my own experience.

RJ, you say that it is impossible for a someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin. but i see the opposite in real life. as wried 4 fishin has pointed out, many believers have addictions (and other sins) that go on for years and years. but as cturtle believes, the unrepentant sin of those who truly believe is covered by the blood of Jesus.

i would say that a true believer cannot go on in unrepentant sin, but plenty of people who truly believe do go on in unrepentant sin and are unsaved. i would say that the faith of those who go on in unrepentant sin does not cover their unrepentant sin, and someone who has faith and many years of habitual unrepentant sin is proving that their faith is dead, although it be true faith, it does not save them.

that is my opinion, but i feel it is biblical. you dont see anywhere in the bible saying "hey, once you sincerely believed, all you need to do is keep believing, anyone who says anything about your sins being a danger to your salvation, they are a false prophet, all you need to do is keep believing and youll be just fine". no, the bible says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, that faith without works is dead, that not all who say to Jesus 'Lord, Lord' will enter Heaven, that anyone who claims to know God but yet practices sin.. they lie do not know God,

 

[RJ]

RJ, you say that it is impossible for a someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin. but i see the opposite in real life. as wried 4 fishin has pointed out, many believers have addictions (and other sins) that go on for years and years. but as cturtle believes, the unrepentant sin of those who truly believe is covered by the blood of Jesus

No, what I am really saying it that someone who truly has Jesus in them can't continue in unrepentant sin, I never said that the didn't still sin . You brought @Wired 4 Fishen and @Curtis into our conversation for support, but I only speak to you . No offense but brother to brother, for me, you prove yourself not to know fundamental spiritual truth!

 

[Curtis]

i am saying, because someone truly believes, does that necessarily make them a true believer?

for example, we know that a true believer not only truly belives, but also has The Holy Spirit, has repented of sin, loves God, tries their best to obey Him.

but what i am asking is, does everyone who truly believes also have all those attributes? i would say no.

there is a theology that most have accepted that says that everyone who truly believes is a true believer. but i disagree. from the bible and from my own experience.

RJ, you say that it is impossible for a someone who truly believes to continue in unrepentant sin. but i see the opposite in real life. as wried 4 fishin has pointed out, many believers have addictions (and other sins) that go on for years and years. but as cturtle believes, the unrepentant sin of those who truly believe is covered by the blood of Jesus.

i would say that a true believer cannot go on in unrepentant sin, but plenty of people who truly believe do go on in unrepentant sin and are unsaved. i would say that the faith of those who go on in unrepentant sin does not cover their unrepentant sin, and someone who has faith and many years of habitual unrepentant sin is proving that their faith is dead, although it be true faith, it does not save them.

that is my opinion, but i feel it is biblical. you dont see anywhere in the bible saying "hey, once you sincerely believed, all you need to do is keep believing, anyone who says anything about your sins being a danger to your salvation, they are a false prophet, all you need to do is keep believing and youll be just fine". no, the bible says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, that faith without works is dead, that not all who say to Jesus 'Lord, Lord' will enter Heaven, that anyone who claims to know God but yet practices sin.. they lie do not know God,

Brother, Salvation is a gift. It is not something you work for. There are five crowns that a believers can attain through works, but salvation is not one of them.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

No, what I am really saying it that someone who truly has Jesus in them can't continue in unrepentant sin, I never said that the didn't still sin . You brought @Wired 4 Fishen and @Curtis into our conversation for support, but I only speak to you . No offense but brother to brother, for me, you prove yourself not to know fundamental spiritual truth!

practicing sin is the same thing as going on in unrepentant sin. if we practice sin, then we wilfully engage in it, and do so repeatedly, without repentance. but if we sin even though we struggle against it, pray to God against it, try our best not to, then these sins are covered. but the one who practices sin, the one who has continued unrepentant sin, this person is not saved, even though they may have a faith, it is dead faith, even though it may be true faith, it is dead and cannot save.

(my opinion)

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Brother, Salvation is a gift. It is not something you work for. There are five crowns that a believers can attain through works, but salvation is not one of them.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

do you have to believe? is believing something a person does in order to be saved? do we have to "work" out our salvation with fear and trembling? is faith without works dead?

 

[Curtis]

do you have to believe? is believing something a person does in order to be saved? do we have to "work" out our salvation with fear and trembling? is faith without works dead?

When the Apostle Paul wrote........

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul was not telling these people they needed work to complete their salvation, as that happens the moment you confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.There was a Church that kept writing to Paul asking him questions about how to deal with certain things. Paul writes back to them and tells them that they have the same God working in them as Paul had in him self. When he said "work out your own salvation, for it is God who is working in you both to will and do of his good pleasure." He was telling them that God is at work in you, ask him! There must come a time in every believers life where they must not depend on another person to guide them in the things of God.
Your faith is in the Word of God which is God. Your faith in God cause God to work to bring to pass those things you are believing him for. This work is what God does not you.
Your work is to "believe", God's "work" is to do what you are believing him to do.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God who is causing you to will, and it is God who is do of his good pleasure.

 

[Cturtle]

Oops.....double post

Blessing to you all

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

When the Apostle Paul wrote........

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul was not telling these people they needed work to complete their salvation, as that happens the moment you confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.There was a Church that kept writing to Paul asking him questions about how to deal with certain things. Paul writes back to them and tells them that they have the same God working in them as Paul had in him self. When he said "work out your own salvation, for it is God who is working in you both to will and do of his good pleasure." He was telling them that God is at work in you, ask him! There must come a time in every believers life where they must not depend on another person to guide them in the things of God.
Your faith is in the Word of God which is God. Your faith in God cause God to work to bring to pass those things you are believing him for. This work is what God does not you.
Your work is to "believe", God's "work" is to do what you are believing him to do.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God who is causing you to will, and it is God who is do of his good pleasure.

if my work is only to believe, does that mean i do not have to repent? only believe, and nothing else? thats the only thing i have to do to earn my salvation?

i think rather, i must not only believe, but repent of sin, love God, obey God, and trust God.

whether or not these things are only accomplished in me by the work of God, i still have to do them myself.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

double post

 

[Curtis]

if my work is only to believe, does that mean i do not have to repent? only believe, and nothing else? thats the only thing i have to do to earn my salvation?

i think rather, i must not only believe, but repent of sin, love God, obey God, and trust God.

whether or not these things are only accomplished in me by the work of God, i still have to do them myself.

Brother, repenting has to do with "believing" (having faith). The Word of God when it is preached, or taught works on the "heart" of man, not his "mind" which is in his head. The word, "repent", means "to change your mind". We are to believe what our "heart" is telling us over and above what our "mind" is telling us. When you have believed in what your "heart" is telling you over your "mind", you have just repented.

Prov 3:5.. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

When a Christian is listening to his heart over his mind all the time, is in a constant state of repentance!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Brother, lets get one thing straight, if i believed what my heart is telling me, i would be the most unrepentant, flagrant sinner you have ever known. my heart is evil, plain and straight up, EVIL. my heart is constantly trying to convince me of evil things, and my mind is also.

Repentance does have to do with believing... believing God's judgement concerning sin, agreeing with Him about it, and turning away from it and looking towards Christ as your savior.

Repentance is the striving to be holy just like God is holy.

"You are to be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48

 

[Curtis]

Brother, lets get one thing straight, if i believed what my heart is telling me, i would be the most unrepentant, flagrant sinner you have ever known. my heart is evil, plain and straight up, EVIL. my heart is constantly trying to convince me of evil things, and my mind is also.

Repentance does have to do with believing... believing God's judgement concerning sin, agreeing with Him about it, and turning away from it and looking towards Christ as your savior.

Repentance is the striving to be holy just like God is holy.

"You are to be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48

You do know when Jesus becomes your new heart, he can not do evil, or even think evil. You are speaking of a person who is not a new creature in Christ, and does not even belong to God.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I don't know who you been talking to, but who ever it is does not know God or his ways!

 

[Cturtle]

if my work is only to believe, does that mean i do not have to repent? only believe, and nothing else? thats the only thing i have to do to earn my salvation?

i think rather, i must not only believe, but repent of sin, love God, obey God, and trust God.

whether or not these things are only accomplished in me by the work of God, i still have to do them myself.

It is only by Jesus' Blood that you are seen as righteous. Nothing that you can do, will put you in right standing with God. Only the Blood of Christ that covers you. So if you have accepted Jesus to be your Lord, then you are no longer a sinner.......you are the righteousness of God by Christ Jesus. (Romans 10:9 )

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

You do know when Jesus becomes your new heart, he can not do evil, or even think evil. You are speaking of a person who is not a new creature in Christ, and does not even belong to God.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I don't know who you been talking to, but who ever it is does not know God or his ways!

When we are born again, The Spirit of God lives inside us; but our old sin nature is still alive waging war against The Spirit, and we must struggle against it all of our life.

Yes, born again believers still have to struggle against their own sinful nature.

Here we see The Holy Spirit telling us that if we say we do not sin, we are liars=

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

And here Paul, inspired by The Holy Spirit, is admitting that even though He is born-again in Christ, He still stills on a daily basis=

"For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing." Romans 7:19


When The Holy Spirit says in 1 John 3:9 that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God", He is not saying that all born again believers will live perfectly sinless lives to perfection. What He is saying is that we will try our very best to live as sinlessly perfect as we possibly can - because God Himself is living inside of us encouraging us and guiding us to be Holy.

When is the last time you ate a little too much food at dinner? You sinned. When is the last time you drove over the speed limit on purpose ? You sinned. I could go on to list more major, more serious sins, that i am absolutely certain that you commit on a daily basis, but i know that you will probably deny that you do.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

It is only by Jesus' Blood that you are seen as righteous. Nothing that you can do, will put you in right standing with God. Only the Blood of Christ that covers you. So if you have accepted Jesus to be your Lord, then you are no longer a sinner.......you are the righteousness of God by Christ Jesus. (Romans 10:9 )

In God's eyes, when we believe in Jesus, Jesus' righteousness is credited, or imputed, to us. We are forgiven. But even though legally speaking we are not under condemnation, we are still sinners saved by grace. Every believer continues to sin until the day they day. Not a single minute goes by that you don't fail to give God proper praise and glory, and that my friend is sin. But even more, on a daily basis you commit murder and you commit adultery, and you worship idols too. All of this you do on a daily basis, nay, an hourly basis, in the deep recesses of your heart. But by the grace of God, if you are born again by The Spirit of God, you will do these things less and less and less over time through the sanctifying work of Christ living inside of you.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

In God's eyes, when we believe in Jesus, Jesus' righteousness is credited, or imputed, to us. We are forgiven. But even though legally speaking we are not under condemnation, we are still sinners saved by grace. Every believer continues to sin until the day they day. Not a single minute goes by that you don't fail to give God proper praise and glory, and that my friend is sin. But even more, on a daily basis you commit murder and you commit adultery, and you worship idols too. All of this you do on a daily basis, nay, an hourly basis, in the deep recesses of your heart. But by the grace of God, if you are born again by The Spirit of God, you will do these things less and less and less over time through the sanctifying work of Christ living inside of you.

I am Not a sinner saved by grace. I am an even as born again spirit filled Child of God.
In the written word of God you will read we are not to be sin conscience. So either you are born again or you are a sinner for you can not be both. You make some bold statements here and I can say in all truth I do NOT do those things.
I miss it now and again and I repent ( turn to God or Turn in another direction ) I seek Him and if I need to change the way i was thinking or doing something he will lety me kinow and I do my part and it is fixed and not happening any more.
Lord Jesus I bind these strong holds over my brothers thinking and I loose a sound mind in Christ Jesus and thank you that he is the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus...amen