GRACE vs SIN

Ivar,
We have been made free from "sin" and "death" which is the punishment, and the cause of the punishment, is this true?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ivar, what does these scriptures mean to you?

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The reason i continue these post is because someone's getting something out of it; one way or another.
 
Ivar,
This is concerning your prior reply:
Ivar,

“You said,” “a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit if it continues in goodness.” You are speaking about those under/justified by the Law of Moses in the verses and context of your reply. When Jesus is speaking about “good trees” in Matthew 7:18,19, He’s speaking about the Kingdom of God, where there is no sin. When He speaks about evil trees, He’s speaking about the world apart from the Kingdom of God.

Ivar, Is there any sin in Christ where the believer is (1John 3:5, 6)? Evil fruit is sin, and good fruit is righteousness which comes from a born again Christian. If the believer does not develop fruit/character of Christ, he is unfruitful. Unfruitful believers do not bring forth fruit; sin is a fruit. Unbelievers bring forth fruit of sin. Believers bring forth fruit of Righteousness (Fruit of the Spirit). If a believer does not bring forth “fruit,” Christ’s character, they are “unfruitful;” they have not sinned (Romans 4:8).

Scripture says;
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is “born of God” “does not commit sin (G4160);” for God’s seed remains in him: and “he cannot sin,” because he is born of God.

This is a double negative; does not and cannot sin.

G4238 (commits)
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.
 
regibassman57 said:
Ivar,
This is concerning your prior reply:
Ivar,

“You said,” “a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit if it continues in goodness.” You are speaking about those under/justified by the Law of Moses in the verses and context of your reply. When Jesus is speaking about “good trees” in Matthew 7:18,19, He’s speaking about the Kingdom of God, where there is no sin. When He speaks about evil trees, He’s speaking about the world apart from the Kingdom of God.

Ivar, Is there any sin in Christ where the believer is (1John 3:5, 6)? Evil fruit is sin, and good fruit is righteousness which comes from a born again Christian. If the believer does not develop fruit/character of Christ, he is unfruitful. Unfruitful believers do not bring forth fruit; sin is a fruit. Unbelievers bring forth fruit of sin. Believers bring forth fruit of Righteousness (Fruit of the Spirit). If a believer does not bring forth “fruit,” Christ’s character, they are “unfruitful;” they have not sinned (Romans 4:8).

Scripture says;
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is “born of God” “does not commit sin (G4160);” for God’s seed remains in him: and “he cannot sin,” because he is born of God.

This is a double negative; does not and cannot sin.

G4238 (commits)
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.
Click to expand...

Sure, HE CANNOT SIN. But, there's more than one interpretive option here:

1. He cannot sin as an ongoing way of lifestyle (despite occasionally still missing the mark due to weakness, ignorance, etc.)
2. He cannot sin in ANY way at ANY time for EVERMORE.

And, given Lk. 11:4 and Mt. 18:15 and Mt. 18:21-22 and Mk. 11:25 and more, it's clear that Jesus doesn't expect His followers to be 100% sinless in all details at all times and all places in all ways forever more.

Rather, we Christians sometimes still miss the mark. And Jesus' comments in these passages anticipate this truth.
 
Adam was born of God however they sinned.

I would consider 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is “born of God” “does not commit sin (G4160);” for God’s seed remains in him: and “he cannot sin,” because he is born of God.

whith

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And say that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin and cannot sin because he overcometh the world believing Christ is the Son of God and abiding in him by following his examples and taking up his yoke.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I believe based on ones actions it is possible to be born of God yet Fall away or become lukewarm. Overcoming the world comes with a light yoke and easy burden however if we do not endure until the end I do not think we will be saved
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Ivar,
We have been made free from "sin" and "death" which is the punishment, and the cause of the punishment, is this true?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ivar, what does these scriptures mean to you?

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Those scriptures remind me of these following scriptures

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
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Lastly I don't consider anything new in the New Testament because it was mentioned in the Old Testament and i see it as an extension of the old. One prophet brought the Law; Another brought Grace and Truth; However all Things are of God. God sent and instructed Moses; God also sent and instructed Christ. With Christ being the only begotten and more excellent.
 
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Ivar,

1John 3:5-10 and other verses is talking about believers in Christ only; even as you confirmed using verses, 1Jn 5:4,5; 2:6; but you still said, “Adam was born of God however they sinned.”

I’m starting to think you are not serious about this conversation, it’s like you’re contradicting yourself purposefully.

There is not sin “in” the “Body of Christ” where a Christian resides (1John 3:5,6).

1Jo 3:5 And you know that Jesus Christ was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abides in Jesus Christ sins not (misses the mark): whosoever sins (misses the mark) has not seen him, neither known him.

Luke 5:36-39 is saying, the body of a converted sinner must be cleansed before it receives the Holy Ghost, because if not, the person receiving the Holy Ghost will die. The bottle is the human vessel and the new wine is the Holy Ghost.

If the priest entered into the Holy of Holies without the proper attire they would die because of the presence of God being so holy. A sinful man cannot stand in the presence of a Holy GOD.

Again doesn’t seem your serious. You said, "I don't consider anything new in the New Testament because it was mentioned in the Old Testament and i see it as an extension of the old."

Ivar, The blood of Jesus Christ was never in the Old Testament. The blood of Jesus is what made man free from sin under the New Testament..

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

G859 (remission)
aphesis
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.
 
Bibleguy,
I must have missed this post…

A believer cannot miss the mark, because there is no mark to miss. All things are lawful unto a believer (1Corinthians 6:12, 10:23).

A servant of sin, sins one time which makes them a sinner. If a believer sins, they are a servant of sins (John 8:34).

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits (commits) sin is the servant of sin.

G4238 (commits)
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

This term “commits” mean “a single act” one time; not two or more.

Jesus said, If a person commits sin is the servant of sin. A servant of sin is not a believer; and this has nothing to do with a lifestyle. A servant of sin has to do with the nature a person is born into.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You selected Luke 11:4; Matthew 18:15,21,22; Mark 11:25:

The scriptures you gave all have to do with sin between men. There are plenty of scripture that talk about sin at face value. Each are before Jesus became the sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29).

Are you teaching Jesus failed to save people from sin and failed to take away the sin of the world (Matthew 1:21: John 1:29)? Either Jesus did or He did not take away, remove, blot out, cancel, heal, cleansed, sanctified, etc. I have scripture for all of these; teaching what Jesus did. No confusion. If you select a scripture just because it says “sin,” your context is wrong, and you're not sure of the point. As I said, either Jesus did or He didn’t. We know He cannot lie?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

G4982 (save)
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Bibleguy, are you saying you are not “saved” from your sins?
 
First and Foremost. Was Adam not born of God? Is Adam not considered a son of God? Did Adam not Sin? Is that not a relevant example? Are we not sons of Adam?
Prior to the sons of God or Fallen Angels falling were they not born of God?
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Unlike the Fallen Angels however Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil.

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You don't think Adam believed in and saw Christ?
Have you forgotten no Man hath seen God at any time which means they saw the one who represents or declared him; The Son/ I.E. Christ.

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Their is not sin in the body of Christ because those whose heart are truly turned to God does not sin.
If one sins then they are cast out of the body of Christ because they have not overcommeth, or abideth in Christ or endured until the end. The way we live our current life determines whether we will be cast out or not.

That is why;

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
"not calling you out in particular"
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Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
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Life is in the blood. The wages of sin is death is nothing new. The Passover lamb foreshadowed the Passover Lamb.
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The Passover lamb took away the penalties of sin however even if a man is born of God; if the man does not abideth in christ, overcometh the world, endure until the end, etc then i expect us to be cast out of the body of Christ and the holy spirit to depart from us. If i am wrong however then I currently do not see my error at this time.
 
What’s up Ivar,
Adam was born of God, but he was born in the flesh. 1John is not talking about being born of God in the flesh; it’s talking about being born of God in the Spirit; after Adam sinned.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Your quoted: “Their is not sin in the body of Christ because those whose heart are truly turned to God does not sin.”

Show me where you got this scriptural understanding in you thought above?

Then you said:
If one sins then they are cast out of the body of Christ because they have not overcommeth, or abideth in Christ or endured until the end. The way we live our current life determines whether we will be cast out or not.
Ivar, can a person sin in the body of Christ? Show me the scripture?

My thought: Believer will be judged in Christ’s body and cast out when God judges His church (1Peter 4:17,18) (Matthew 13:41)

Ivar, Where in scripture does it teach that Jesus took the penalty for sin, without taking “all” the sins?

You said: The Passover lamb took away the penalties of sin however even if a man is born of God; if the man does not abideth in christ, overcometh the world, endure until the end, etc then i expect us to be cast out of the body of Christ and the holy spirit to depart from us. If i am wrong however then I currently do not see my error at this time.
 
regibassman57 said:
Bibleguy,
I must have missed this post…

A believer cannot miss the mark, because there is no mark to miss. All things are lawful unto a believer (1Corinthians 6:12, 10:23).

A servant of sin, sins one time which makes them a sinner. If a believer sins, they are a servant of sins (John 8:34).

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits (commits) sin is the servant of sin.

G4238 (commits)
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

This term “commits” mean “a single act” one time; not two or more.

Jesus said, If a person commits sin is the servant of sin. A servant of sin is not a believer; and this has nothing to do with a lifestyle. A servant of sin has to do with the nature a person is born into.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You selected Luke 11:4; Matthew 18:15,21,22; Mark 11:25:

The scriptures you gave all have to do with sin between men. There are plenty of scripture that talk about sin at face value. Each are before Jesus became the sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29).

Are you teaching Jesus failed to save people from sin and failed to take away the sin of the world (Matthew 1:21: John 1:29)? Either Jesus did or He did not take away, remove, blot out, cancel, heal, cleansed, sanctified, etc. I have scripture for all of these; teaching what Jesus did. No confusion. If you select a scripture just because it says “sin,” your context is wrong, and you're not sure of the point. As I said, either Jesus did or He didn’t. We know He cannot lie?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

G4982 (save)
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Bibleguy, are you saying you are not “saved” from your sins?
Click to expand...


Hi!

You wrote: "All things are lawful unto a believer."

My response: Really? So we can murder and blaspheme and do any other awful thing imaginable? Of course not. Thus, Paul's statement "all things are lawful" is not true, unless it is properly qualified by the broader context of Paul's writings, and by the even broader context of Scripture in general (given 2 Ti. 3:16).

So, "all things are lawful" (according to Paul) is insufficient to prove Paul thinks it's ok to disobey Torah portions.

After all, Paul said ALL Scripture (thus including TORAH!) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior (2 Ti. 3:16).

Again, Paul APPLIED the Torah-obedient Dt. 30:14 passage to YOU in Rom. 10:8 (thus proving that FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the word of faith which Paul preached).

Again, Paul said we should not sin (Rom. 6:15); but Torah-disobedience is sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7); thus we should not disobey Torah; thus we should OBEY Torah (according to Paul).

Again, Paul upholds the Psalms (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16). The Psalms UPHOLD Torah (Ps. 1; Ps. 119; etc.). Thus, we should OBEY Torah (given Paul's affirmation of the perpetuity of the Psalms).

Again, Paul says that we are of the flesh or spirit (Rom. 8). But the flesh DISOBEYS Torah (Rom. 8:7). The Spirit, by contrast, must lead us to OBEY Torah.

Again, Paul affirms that Gentiles who obey Torah issue correct judgements (Rom. 2:27). Thus, Torah is surely not terminated, in Paul's mind.

So, let's not quote an "all things are lawful" passage, and then pretend that we can ignore this broader context of Pauline data which clearly confirms that Paul expects Christians to OBEY Torah.

In doing so, you've merely set forth an apparent contradiction between your "all things are lawful" passages and the Pauline considerations I've set before you here.

And, a contradiction is not something that persuades me.

Now, you wrote: "You selected Luke 11:4; Matthew 18:15,21,22; Mark 11:25: The scriptures you gave all have to do with sin between men."

My response: No. Lk. 11:4 says nothing about the "sins" being merely "sin between men". You just made that up.

Thus, the "Lord's prayer" anticipates that disciples of the Messiah should continuously pray for forgiveness of sin. Why? Because we Christians sometimes sin! And it's good to reinforce an attitude in which we continuously request (and receive) FORGIVENESS for any sin (knowingly or unknowingly) which we may have committed.

After all, the blood of Jesus purifies (present tense!) us from sin (1 Jn. 1:7). Why do we need present-tense cleansing? Because we Christians might sin once in awhile, and thus we need ongoing cleansing!

Anyway, lots of food for thought now!

blessings....

PS Of course we are saved from our sins through the grace of the Messiah (Ac. 15:11). But that's no excuse to ignore the Torah He requires we obey. And that's no excuse to ignore the Scriptural evidence I've set before you which confirms that Christians might still sin once in a while.
 
Bibleguy,
Yes, you can do as you please; you would be a fool to. Under the First Covenant you were judge immediately, but under grace God has put off the penalty until judgment. Will you give account? Definitely! In this world (if you get caught) and at the day of judgement (1Corinthians 4:5). Will God chasten a believer in this world, Yes
 
@regibassman57

Any terrestrial being native to earth is flesh and spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.

Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Offspring of Adam are also flesh of his flesh. We are spirit from God and Flesh from Adam. One Living Soul. All things being of God.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
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Your quoted: “Their is not sin in the body of Christ because those whose heart are truly turned to God does not sin.”

Show me where you got this scriptural understanding in you thought above?

I may not be able to. How can I explain that one who loves God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength does not sin or turns back to loving God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength?
Those that sin are no longer known unless they turn back.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. "perhaps mouth represent his body here"

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. " perhaps may have been in the body but cast away because of iniquity"

I have heard husbands telling their brides and vice versa "I never knew you" because of unfaithfulness and infidelity / iniquity; Removing them from their covenant of marriage, etc. So I don't see how this would be unreasonable or break scripture.
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Okay Bibleguy,

I will deal with a little at a time. You said I made up my response?

Bibleguy: My response: No. You just made that up. Jeremiah said TORAH passes into the New Covenant (see "TORAH", Jer. 31:33). And, I've already shown you that TORAH includes much more than merely the 10 commandments. And, Jeremiah did NOT say "ten commandments"...rather, Jeremiah said TORAH (Jer. 31:33).

I’ll start here:
I will make my point about the Ten Commandment using these verses below. Proving I didn’t make up my response.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

We know this new covenant is with Christ. What are the laws that will be put in our hearts and minds?

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, said the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

There is no confirmation regarding any other required laws except the Ten Commandments under the New Covenant.

Jesus has fulfilled all the requirements of the laws (Colossians 2:14). A believer’s responsibility is to fulfill the law of Love. If we do this, “all the law is fulfilled. Not some, but all.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Righteousness of the Law is Love, the Ten Commandments, the testimony or Character of God (Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 10:9); which are everlasting (Psalms 119:142, 144, 152).

This is my confirmation that a believer’s responsibility is keeping the Law of Love only; by doing so, we have fulfilled the “WHOLE LAW.”

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shall not commit adultery, Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not steal, Thou shall not bear false witness, Thou shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

Jam 2:8 If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that “all things must be fulfilled,” which were “written in the law of Moses,” and in the prophets, and in the psalms, “concerning me.”

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou would not, neither had pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

Bibleguy, you have not provided any New Covenant scriptures confirming we are to keep the Sacrificial Laws, the Ceremonial Laws or the Judicial Laws. The Royal Law/Moral Law/Ten Commandments I’ve verified under the First and Second Covenants.
 
@regibassman57

I looked over
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord
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They are very interesting scriptures. It seems Paul thru the Holy Spirit is glorifying Christ. I do not think my words contradict those scriptures and I perceive them to be more in layman's "non specialized" terms "if that makes sense".
 
Hey Ivar,
The difference is Adam was created from the dust of the ground from the earth (he became a living soul); this is the natural man. He was not created a spirit being first.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (not a living spirit).

This is why scripture says, that which is born of flesh is flesh (John 3:6).

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

When Jesus died in the flesh (as terrestrial being); He rose and His body became transformed and; He was raised a celestrial being.

1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

So this is the process.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We as believers will recieve our spiritual bodies when we are raised. Our bodies now have been circumcised from sin, this is the only reason we can have the Spirit of God dwelling in us. If our bodies were still sinful, God could not dwell in them.

This is why under the old covenant, man could not stand in the presence of God without dying.
 
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@To all willing to reply: (this is a repeat, all that has replied ignore)
I believe this is a very important reseach in scripture. Quesiton: We as believers are taught, we are fully saved from the "penalty" of sin, but not from the fulness of sin?

Where can this be confired in scripture?
There are some sharp believers on this site, so the answer is in the heart of someone!
 
regibassman57 said:
Bibleguy,
Yes, you can do as you please; you would be a fool to. Under the First Covenant you were judge immediately, but under grace God has put off the penalty until judgment. Will you give account? Definitely! In this world (if you get caught) and at the day of judgement (1Corinthians 4:5). Will God chasten a believer in this world, Yes
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Hi again!

Ummm....did you mean to suggest that I would be a fool to actually obey the Torah of the New Covenant described by Jeremiah in Jer. 31:33?
 
regibassman57 said:
What's up Bibleguy,
I would not speak or write anything personally offensive to you, so no. I know you love God, no doubt in my mind :smile:
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No worries! I wasn't offended....just wansn't sure what you were tryin' to say....

I trust you love God too!

But, seems like we REALLY need to get to the bottom of this "TORAH" issue....because a mistake either way could end up with serious negative consequences.

So, what were you saying, exactly, when you said: "Yes, you can do as you please; you would be a fool to." ?

later....
 
Hey @ Bibleguy
Every man in Christ has a choice to do a particular work or action wrong or right, and God is not imputing sin unto them (1Corithians 4:8; 2Corinthians 5:19).

Under the Law of Moses, God imputed sin, because the Law witnessed against man (Deuteronomy 31:26) ; God viewed man’s actions through the Law. The Law of Moses had no relationship with man (Romans 6:23); God has a personal relationship with New Covenant believers; because He abides in them.

Under the Law of Moses, if a man unintentionally committed a certain act, and that act was against the law, that man could die. Uzzah is the perfect example. Uzzah touched the Ark of the Covenant and died. That was unintentional (Samuel 6:7).

So the point I’m making, under the New Covenant a person can do as they please through Grace, without God imputing sin or a punishment unto them; this was different under the Law of Moses (Romans 7:7).

Though God is not imputing sin unto a believer at this time, they will give account of their actions; either in this life (through man’s law), and/or in the judgment to come.

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall “gather out of his kingdom” all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (lawlessness); (this is known as unfruitful works)

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Notice it says, “out of God’s Kingdom?” Every so called Christian may not obtain Eternal Life.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
 
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