I want to intervene for one person already in hell.

[KingJ]

I can truly 'hate' the fact that thousands of people in 3rd world countries are dying of starvation, but I'm not necessarily going to send any funds to any organizations to help that situation.

Then you don't hate it. If you truly hated seeing someone suffering you would do something about it. This is why the key word in Psalm 51:17 is sincere / truthful repentance.

But it seems that you're trying to portray Him as 'someone' who really wants a Bride -- has a dowry ready for us kind of like a suitor nowdays. A guy wants to have a bride -- so he does everything he can to persuade her to join him. That's putting everyone on the same level. But we're talking about Almighty God.

Outside of the dowry, you have my view correct.

God has gone through '''soooooooooooo''' much effort to have a highly intelligent creation with Him. He has limited His omnipotence to allow for evil (something He utterly hates) to take place around Him. He has shown the greatest act of love John 15:13 for us on the cross. The whole of heaven rejoices with God when someone is saved.

God does do everything He can to persuade us. But He is a perfect groom. He does not deceive us. He tells us in scripture exactly who He is. You are completely out of sync in comparing him to a womanizer. He calls us His bride. 2 Cor 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

 

[KingJ]

God is the only One who Does know who will accept or reject His gift of salvation. God has All knowledge.

This statement sounds correct, but it is terribly wrong.

It is like saying, God is omnipotent, therefore all the evil that happens is on Him.

You need to meditate on the fact that God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. Meditate on the fact that all the evidence points to true free will. ''Anyone'' can be saved. Eternal separation for those that reject Him. God actually coming to earth and dying for us. Us, not made in heaven like the angels, but placed on an earth. ALL OF SCRIPTURE / Jesus and every prophet's teaching points to free will.

When you make a statement like you are, you are saying 1 John 1:5 is false.

See, predestination is partiality. Partiality is wicked. PURE AND UTTER WICKEDNESS!!

Not one of us can defend God as good if He is partial. No good person should serve God if He is partial.

We need to consider God's omniscience on a subject like predestination with a proper understanding of who He is first. Ask questions like ''How does a good God get a bride''. Would anyone say 'booking a bride' is evidence of a good person? Dowry? C'mon, our God is good. Exceedingly good. A Christian has no excuse for miss-representing God on predestination. We are suppose to know Him. We are supposed to grasp cherry picking people is evil. I can promise you that every unsaved person does.

God does not 'do evil'. Foreknowledge of whom will be in hell and whom not, when you are the Creator, is evil. Foreknowledge would be an evil thought in His mind, so He removes it / It is not there to begin with.

God hates what is evil. Just because He can do something evil does not mean He does. Just because He can know something that would be evil to know, does not mean He does. You are saying He does evil.

God has gone to the ends of the earth to make true free will a reality as He truly loves us and wants us to truly love Him. Yet you, who are charged to properly represent Him, undo it all with one line. C'mon Sue. Please meditate properly on what I have said here.

 

[povawiqe]

When God created Adam -- He breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul.

There are 150 Psalms -- to which one are you referring.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person and stays with him/ her until the person is with Jesus Christ. The blood of Jesus Christ sets a person free from sin. There's a song that says "What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus" "What can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus."

Angels are angels -- they're not made into anything.

Airflow is breath because it is the movement of air. The scriptures teaches us that angels are able to transform into fire, which is the form the angel appeared to Moses as, and they're able to transform into airflow,

Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels into airflows, His servants flames of fire.” (Hebrews 1:7)

There the angel Yehovah appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush… (Exodus 3:2)

Are not all angels ministering airflows sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)

 

[Christ4Ever]

If you wanted to know how I've done it you could've just asked, rather than discard the scriptures that say to do it. This is what I teach, which I've also done, when I chose to move to Colombia early this year after I sold my possessions,

Sell your possessions and all your properties, keeping only necessities, and choose to rent, as Paul did.
Acquire gold, which is the money the assemblies used at that time after they sold their possessions to cover needs.
Burn whatever paper money is left.

There are around less than 8 years away for the second coming of the Messiah. So its not a long time to endure this way of life in preparation for his coming.

After doing these things, and being in complete obedience to the Torah, and beginning to do good works by giving to the poor, then you may receive the airflow of God, which will free you from sin. These are the steps of deliverance, in practical terms to today.

Glad it's working out for you. Alleluia! Praise the Lord Brother. We need more workers in the field.

Now to address your example of Paul that all should follow. Of course Paul rented! He was always on the road, maybe at one place for a year or two. Establishing a church here, discipling the next leader for the new start up of a church, then moving on to do the same at another place. Is this what you are doing???? Don't color it so that only the way you speak of by pulling Scripture with no context becomes the only way. Because it is not. Praise the Lord that you are able to do it how God has moved you to, but allow that there are other callings to the Body of Christ and allow their callings to be fruitful wherever that might find them or move them as was done with you.

Yes, our Lord is coming, Alleluia! Whether today, tomorrow or the next. It's be prepared! Being about His business! Just realize that leading another to walk with the Lord may require them to do so eventually in a different fashion then you doing. As Peter was to the Jew's and Paul to the Gentiles, while still other to lead churches, or teach, each still being a servant, but one that may have them each filling something that needs doing as you are probably doing i.e. ministering to the poor etc.

Unless you believe that yours is the only way, and if that way is not followed, that ones Salvation is then in question. Then we would have issue. Otherwise, count what the Lord has moved you to be able to do a blessing, and one to share, but don't ever force upon another. We may by God's grace be allowed to plant, while others water, but God will grow! (1 Cor 3:7)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

P.S. I don't discard Scripture, I just truly attempt to keep it in context to the whole.
God Bless.

 

[povawiqe]

Glad it's working out for you. Alleluia! Praise the Lord Brother. We need more workers in the field.

Now to address your example of Paul that all should follow. Of course Paul rented! He was always on the road, maybe at one place for a year or two. Establishing a church here, discipling the next leader for the new start up of a church, then moving on to do the same at another place. Is this what you are doing???? Don't color it so that only the way you speak of by pulling Scripture with no context becomes the only way. Because it is not. Praise the Lord that you are able to do it how God has moved you to, but allow that there are other callings to the Body of Christ and allow their callings to be fruitful wherever that might find them or move them as was done with you.

Yes, our Lord is coming, Alleluia! Whether today, tomorrow or the next. It's be prepared! Being about His business! Just realize that leading another to walk with the Lord may require them to do so eventually in a different fashion then you doing. As Peter was to the Jew's and Paul to the Gentiles, while still other to lead churches, or teach, each still being a servant, but one that may have them each filling something that needs doing as you are probably doing i.e. ministering to the poor etc.

Unless you believe that yours is the only way, and if that way is not followed, that ones Salvation is then in question. Then we would have issue. Otherwise, count what the Lord has moved you to be able to do a blessing, and one to share, but don't ever force upon another. We may by God's grace be allowed to plant, while others water, but God will grow! (1 Cor 3:7)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

P.S. I don't discard Scripture, I just truly attempt to keep it in context to the whole.
God Bless.

We must ALL lower ourselves by selling our possessions and all our properties. To inherit the kingdom of God we must first become like servants, to then receive all the wealth associated with inheriting the kingdom of God in the thousand year rulership of the Messiah. We must all lower ourselves, to then be exalted. If you do not lower yourself in the way required by the Messiah, by selling your possessions and properties, you cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is not optional. I moved to Colombia not to just fulfill this, but to also establish an assembly, which I am still making preparations to do, but am close now to beginning that work.

 

[Sue D.]

@povawiqe --- last evening I was -- again -- clicking into some of your articles -- your group is called "Wisdom of God" and you have your own statement of beliefs. And part of it is denying the Scriptural trinity. And your defining Of what you Do hold to is questionable.

Over the years there have been men who have gained a following - one of them took a group to another country -- willingly as they were going -- it led to their deaths.

Christ4Ever -- put it well -- pulling Scripture with no context becoming the only way.

God's Way of salvation is The way. The Only way.

God Does call people to go to various geographical areas to share the Gospel unto salvation. And, in reality , All believers are 'missionaries' to their families, neighbors, etc. My sister and her husband felt led to go to Brazil to start churches under the guidance of a mission board. They recently retired after 40 years and raising 4 kids in the process. They were able to start 3 churches -- ministered to street kids , took some of them into their own home to raise -- camp work. Very fruitful , exhausting ministry.

Missionaries -- pastors go to Bible colleges --seminaries -- missionaries present their field of ministry to churches to gain support for their ministering endeavors. They have a strong inner desire to serve God sharing the good new of Salvation. Make disciples who are able to in turn lead their own people in that particular culture.

One of my aunts and uncles -- decades ago were in home missions in Chicago.

My late husband and myself were in a small pastorate in Minn. He went through Bible college and a year of seminary before getting that church. We stayed there for about 5 yrs.

So I have some first-hand knowledge of what I'm saying.

Guiding people in a Scriptural way.

 

[Sue D.]

This statement sounds correct, but it is terribly wrong.

It is like saying, God is omnipotent, therefore all the evil that happens is on Him.

You need to meditate on the fact that God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. Meditate on the fact that all the evidence points to true free will. ''Anyone'' can be saved. Eternal separation for those that reject Him. God actually coming to earth and dying for us. Us, not made in heaven like the angels, but placed on an earth. ALL OF SCRIPTURE / Jesus and every prophet's teaching points to free will.

When you make a statement like you are, you are saying 1 John 1:5 is false.

See, predestination is partiality. Partiality is wicked. PURE AND UTTER WICKEDNESS!!

Not one of us can defend God as good if He is partial. No good person should serve God if He is partial.

We need to consider God's omniscience on a subject like predestination with a proper understanding of who He is first. Ask questions like ''How does a good God get a bride''. Would anyone say 'booking a bride' is evidence of a good person? Dowry? C'mon, our God is good. Exceedingly good. A Christian has no excuse for miss-representing God on predestination. We are suppose to know Him. We are supposed to grasp cherry picking people is evil. I can promise you that every unsaved person does.

God does not 'do evil'. Foreknowledge of whom will be in hell and whom not, when you are the Creator, is evil. Foreknowledge would be an evil thought in His mind, so He removes it / It is not there to begin with.

God hates what is evil. Just because He can do something evil does not mean He does. Just because He can know something that would be evil to know, does not mean He does. You are saying He does evil.

God has gone to the ends of the earth to make true free will a reality as He truly loves us and wants us to truly love Him. Yet you, who are charged to properly represent Him, undo it all with one line. C'mon Sue. Please meditate properly on what I have said here.

God Does have all-knowledge -- And we do have freedom of choice -- God simply knows what we will choose. We're not puppets.

And God Is all-powerful and He Is Sovereign -- He Does have His plan for the people in this world and His plan Does happen. And God Does Allow -- He lets us learn from our mistakes and He allows leadership for us to learn from.

He allowed the Israelites to be in captivity in Egypt for those 400 - 450 years for His reasons. Do We understand? Not especially == we Do need to trust God -- and , I'll admit -- I have trouble doing that.

And, now, you're finding fault with predestination . That and foreknowledge have always been sticky subjects. There's nothing evil about being the Creator who has all knowledge of who will be in hell and who won't be. He / God is the One who made the Only way possible for mankind to be able To spend eternity in heaven. And heaven will be brought down by God to be the New Jerusalem in His timing. Jesus Christ, His Son, came to this earth to be our savior. In the form of dying on the cross for our sins and rising from the dead on the 3rd day. Then He ascended back up to heaven.

There are those who believe that as long as they are using the KJV, that anything they say is correct.

And your comment about 1 John 1:5 -- the verse is obviously correct -- God IS light and there is no darkness at all. And it needs to be applied correctly.

 

[povawiqe]

@povawiqe --- last evening I was -- again -- clicking into some of your articles -- your group is called "Wisdom of God" and you have your own statement of beliefs. And part of it is denying the Scriptural trinity. And your defining Of what you Do hold to is questionable.

Over the years there have been men who have gained a following - one of them took a group to another country -- willingly as they were going -- it led to their deaths.

Christ4Ever -- put it well -- pulling Scripture with no context becoming the only way.

God's Way of salvation is The way. The Only way.

God Does call people to go to various geographical areas to share the Gospel unto salvation. And, in reality , All believers are 'missionaries' to their families, neighbors, etc. My sister and her husband felt led to go to Brazil to start churches under the guidance of a mission board. They recently retired after 40 years and raising 4 kids in the process. They were able to start 3 churches -- ministered to street kids , took some of them into their own home to raise -- camp work. Very fruitful , exhausting ministry.

Missionaries -- pastors go to Bible colleges --seminaries -- missionaries present their field of ministry to churches to gain support for their ministering endeavors. They have a strong inner desire to serve God sharing the good new of Salvation. Make disciples who are able to in turn lead their own people in that particular culture.

One of my aunts and uncles -- decades ago were in home missions in Chicago.

My late husband and myself were in a small pastorate in Minn. He went through Bible college and a year of seminary before getting that church. We stayed there for about 5 yrs.

So I have some first-hand knowledge of what I'm saying.

Guiding people in a Scriptural way.

I am not a cult leader. I came to Colombia to give to the poor here, not to cause the death of people, and through the good works the Messiah wants us to do, through belief in him, then receive his anointing, to then establish an assembly here. This is why Cornelius received the anointing after his obedience and good works to the poor,

And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Master?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. Now send men to Joppa to call for a man named Simon who is called Peter. (Acts 10:4-5)

 

[Ivar]

@imsoconfused

Critique/Assessment and or Scrutiny:

This seems to be a tricky and loaded question. If you know that the person is in hell and you know that God is Good and God is Just then this could be potentially concerning. What do you know about that person that God does not know?

This seems to be a question that would make the Holy Spirit Groan.

Moses and Christ intervened for those of the living and with the potential to turn back to the Heavenly Father.

There is one intervener / mediator between Man and God. That person you wish to pray for is no longer a living soul "flesh & spirit". You may have or should have had an opportunity to convince that person if close to you. You may be better of praying and convincing the living souls that you can still interact with.

What you could do is pray fervently and dedicate your remaining life to do all you can to sit on the right hand of the Son of God. That way if such a thing is even possible you would be in the best position to ask for it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 10:14-16
Joh 10:27-28

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[KingJ]

God Does have all-knowledge -- And we do have freedom of choice -- God simply knows what we will choose. We're not puppets.

And God Is all-powerful and He Is Sovereign -- He Does have His plan for the people in this world and His plan Does happen. And God Does Allow -- He lets us learn from our mistakes and He allows leadership for us to learn from.

He allowed the Israelites to be in captivity in Egypt for those 400 - 450 years for His reasons. Do We understand? Not especially == we Do need to trust God -- and , I'll admit -- I have trouble doing that.

And, now, you're finding fault with predestination . That and foreknowledge have always been sticky subjects. There's nothing evil about being the Creator who has all knowledge of who will be in hell and who won't be. He / God is the One who made the Only way possible for mankind to be able To spend eternity in heaven. And heaven will be brought down by God to be the New Jerusalem in His timing. Jesus Christ, His Son, came to this earth to be our savior. In the form of dying on the cross for our sins and rising from the dead on the 3rd day. Then He ascended back up to heaven.

There are those who believe that as long as they are using the KJV, that anything they say is correct.

And your comment about 1 John 1:5 -- the verse is obviously correct -- God IS light and there is no darkness at all. And it needs to be applied correctly.

You are simply not dealing with the elephant in the room.

God has to limit His omniscience in His dealings with us to uphold being good. You simply cannot win the argument. You are ignoring it in your replies.

 

[Bendito]

Bendito,
re: "As a matter of fact I know that leprechauns do exist."

Since you already believed that leprechauns exist, they were not appropriate for a real-time demonstration of your ability.

ROFL I did not say I believe they exist. I said I know they exist. There is a difference.

 

[Sue D.]

KingJ -- I'm really Not trying to win any argument. Simply stating Biblical facts. You, sir, are not my final authority.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Okay brethren! We are starting to devolve this thread into a mishmash of differing subjects which are no help to our Brother and the subject posed before us. I include myself in this admonishment.

So, let's stay on point and if there are certain subjects that you'd like to continue with a certain member. I am more then willing to tag and move the postings for the creation of another thread. Just let me know. Your consideration in this would be greatly appreciated.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[KingJ]

KingJ -- I'm really Not trying to win any argument. Simply stating Biblical facts. You, sir, are not my final authority.

As scripture is mine too. I will end with this so we don't derail this thread further.

Scripture tells us that God is good Psalm 136:1. Scripture tells us that God has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. Scripture tells us that God is impartial Acts 10:34. So, I take them all into account in deciphering God's foreknowledge and come to this conclusion: If God can limit His omnipotence in not dealing with people like Hitler, Stalin and Nero....to allow for true free will. God can surely also limit His omniscience to all for true free will. True free will is good. Partiality is utter wickedness. Just ask any recipient of racism and slavery. If God does not support true free will, God is not good. God is not light with no darkness in Him. God is not impartial. If we espouse limited free will we espouse an evil God and fail terribly at representing Him.

This view and similar heretical teaching of God leads people to make threads exactly like this one.

 

[Sue D.]

As scripture is mine too. I will end with this so we don't derail this thread further.

Scripture tells us that God is good Psalm 136:1. Scripture tells us that God has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. Scripture tells us that God is impartial Acts 10:34. So, I take them all into account in deciphering God's foreknowledge and come to this conclusion: If God can limit His omnipotence in not dealing with people like Hitler, Stalin and Nero....to allow for true free will. God can surely also limit His omniscience to all for true free will. True free will is good. Partiality is utter wickedness. Just ask any recipient of racism and slavery. If God does not support true free will, God is not good. God is not light with no darkness in Him. God is not impartial. If we espouse limited free will we espouse an evil God and fail terribly at representing Him.

This view and similar heretical teaching of God leads people to make threads exactly like this one.

KingJ -- you're taking three verses and taking 'all of them' into account and coming up with some interest conclusions. God's Word says that God knows All which means He knows what everyone will do. He is also Sovereign -- His plans Will come to pass in His own timing. So -- Your personal conclusions are simply Your conclusions.

Apparently those who disagree with your conclusions are heretical in their views. Your views are exactly that, Your views.

 

[TheTruthWithin37]

You know how Moses intervened for the people of Egypt many times “convincing God to not kill them?” Or when Jesus wanted to come down and sacrifice himself for all of humanity? I want to intervene for one person in hell and take their place so that they can be in heaven for what Jesus did for me and throw my gift away to someone in hell and take their place. Someone is probably going to say “do not throw your treasures to the swine” like Jesus said. Everyone looks out for their own salvation. What if it’s possible? Could we? How can i be sure that i can pray to be sent to hell in the place of one person in hell. With the way God takes “intervening.” Would I be able to save someone? Am I that valuable to God? Just like his love for Moses when Moses said not to kill those people that were worshiping that golden calf? I want to sacrifice my salvation for someone in hell and it doesn’t matter who. Is this possible?

Throughout life God gives us many chances to come to him, and he doesn't wish that any of us would perish. But at the same time all humans have free will, to do whatever they want. They can turn to God or ignore him, plus its up to God only where they go when they die anyway, hes the judge! Moses was trying to save people who were alive, they might have had another chance to repent if God gave mercy. When someone is in hell God thinks it's needed, and if he wants them out that's up to him only. What you need to do while you have time is start getting focused on obeying Jesus and what he taught! Read the four gospels, and act like hes talking to you! Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

 

[Sue D.]

@TheTruthWithin37 -- you seem to believe that it's completely up to God as to who goes to heaven or hell? That a person will be in hell if God thinks it's needed? and that He can actually get someone Out of hell? That's not what His Word says.

While it Is true that God is the final judge, He Does tell us How to get to heaven as well as how to end up in hell. It's Our personal decision as to where we Do go. God has provided the Only way -- which is through the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. A person either accepts or rejects.

If, as you say, everyone has free will , then why do you Also say that it's really up to God when they die since He's the judge. That says that we really Don't have free will to choose.

It's because OF God's mercy that we all Don't end up in hell.

 

[povawiqe]

@TheTruthWithin37 -- you seem to believe that it's completely up to God as to who goes to heaven or hell? That a person will be in hell if God thinks it's needed? and that He can actually get someone Out of hell? That's not what His Word says.

While it Is true that God is the final judge, He Does tell us How to get to heaven as well as how to end up in hell. It's Our personal decision as to where we Do go. God has provided the Only way -- which is through the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. A person either accepts or rejects.

If, as you say, everyone has free will , then why do you Also say that it's really up to God when they die since He's the judge. That says that we really Don't have free will to choose.

It's because OF God's mercy that we all Don't end up in hell.

No one goes to heaven. That is another lie that is believed by many. When the Messiah returns, his people will awaken from the dead in the first resurrection to live on and rule on this earth, for one thousand years. Then, after the one thousand years, a new heaven and new earth will be created, and the New Jerusalem will descend on the new earth, and the people of God will live in the New Jerusalem, on the second earth. Therefore, there is never a point where the people of God ascend into heaven, no different than the more ordinary priests do not enter the most set-apart place of the temple, that privilege belongs only to the High Priest, which is Yeshuah, who entered heaven on our behalf, to intercede for us, who live on earth, and soon, he will return to us, here on the earth in his second coming, to raise us from the dead, and also give us a kingdom to inherit, on this earth. That is why it is written, "the meek shall inherit the earth". Also, "Hell" does not currently exist. It is a future place that will come into existence beginning from the second coming of the Messiah, because it is at his second coming the Mount Zion will form, and will flow with lava, towards the south to Negev, and also towards the north to Jerusalem, and will form as a lake of lava outside the southern wall of Old Jerusalem, which is why Yeshuah called that place "Gehenna", which means "Valley of Hinnom", for he wasn't just alluding to the fact that the place of fire would be like a garbage dump, but he was telling us where it was actually going to be. This is why it is also written, "declares Yehovah, whose fire is in Zion, and whose furnace is in Jerusalem". It's high time you stopped believing the lies you've been taught, and start believing the truth I am telling you. The lie will only lead to your very own destruction, and you will regret not believing what I am telling you.

 

[Sue D.]

Okay -- lots of people talk about 'heaven and/ or hell'. People associate those terms with the after-life. The point being that upon death and /or the rapture of the Church -- a born-again believer will be immediately with Jesus Christ.
John 14: 1-6 tells us that God is preparing a place for us and that He will come again and receive us unto Himself.

There Is a second and third heaven which Is spoken of in Scripture.

And, yes, it Is in the last chapter or two of Revelation the New Jerusalem is brought down to earth by God. So - presently -- IT is located 'up in heaven'. That is where Jesus Christ ascended back Up To in the beginning of the book of Acts. Chapter 1 vs. 9 - 11.

I've not been taught any lies. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in the part of the world that I live in -- people refer to either ending up in heaven or in hell.

I'm going by Scripture.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Moved some posts to a more appropriate thread which is dealing with the Identity of the Beast of Revelation etc.
Since it's Rev 13 chapter that is being discussed.

Can't stay on point then best to create or move to an existing one on the subject.
If you'd like for this to be done in the future, then please notify any of the Staff who will be more than willing to assist in doing so.
Thank-you for your consideration.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Moderator
Nick
<><