Predestined?

[Sue D.]

Butch5 -- you feel you have to know Everything about Everything. Well -- a person's eternal future is determined here on earth. Either a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior Now -- in this life time - or they Don't.

We are Also given enough information about Both destinations to know that No one Wants to end up in lake of fire and brimstone and people will want to end up in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Sue D.]

Tertullian wasn't inspired, but neither is anyone of us. He was however, much closer to the events in question and has a lot less false teaching to wade through. And since he is the one who coined the term his input is valuable.

No, I didn't take part of a verse. I gave the Nicene Creed in addition to Jesus' own words. Call me crazy, but I think Jesus may have known where He came from. Yes, it is two beings. Jesus and the Father are not the same being. Two beings cannot be one being. It doesn't work.

Maybe logically speak it doesn't. But we're talking about Scripture and what works in Scripture.

Of course Jesus knew where He came from -- God the Father by means of being born of a virgin. A virgin conceiving a baby by the Holy Spirit 'doesn't work' biologically, Either. Nothing logical about it. And we've also had This conversation.

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One". Ah -- but apparently it Does work. As per Scripture.

The Nicene Creed came into being by who? I just looked it up -- it came into existence as a result of a fierce debate. It is Not inspired by God. So let's stay with God's inspired word.

 

[Curtis]

I imagine He keeps it. We're not really told. I do know that He will put it in man again at the resurrection.

I believe this verse is talking about the judgment at the resurrection, or the final judgment. If as I say man is not a spirit being then when he dies he is dead until the resurrection and couldn't be judged unless he was judged while dead. However, I believe the whole reason for resurrecting the wicked is for judgment.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

For the born again believer when they die physically they are immediately brought into the presence of the Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust [out of which God made man's body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it. (AMP)

The Lord God uses his angels to bring believers who have died physically, into his presence, the wicked are temporarily put into hell (hades) until judgment day.

Luk 16:22 And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. (AMP)

Mans body decays back into its elements at death, but man's soul (which is spirit) either goes to God or hell (hades)

 

[Curtis]

Ok. I guess what I'm trying to understand is your thinking on what God Is. Is God a person? If so, then there are four persons, right?

God is NOT four people!!!

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I don't see four people here, do you?

 

[Sue D.]

(see ya'll tomorrow)

 

[Enxu]

Dear Sister, @Enxu
Stop with tossing the word heretical around please. Your belief could just as easily be seen as being heretical to those you are communicating with, but are they calling you "Heretic"? I haven't read each and every word on this thread, but I don't believe they have. Using such words do nothing to further your position on this subject, or enlightenment for a greater understanding by those who are reading your words.

However, if communicating the subject of the divinity of Christ is difficult for you to communicate without using such trigger words. Then may I suggest you move on to another thread/topic please.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

P.S. If I've missed anyone here who has called Sister Enxu a heretic, please cease to do so!

I have not called anyone on these forums a heretic. I was talking about the heresy (ie. false doctrine) that people on here believe about Jesus being both Spirit (God) and Man during His 30+ years as flesh. God is Spirit, this is what Scriptures say, if Jesus remained God during those 30+ years then we also must believe He never actually became flesh but was still Spirit when He walked the earth. That is the deception coming from the spirit of antichrist as mentioned by apostle John, the spirit that seeks to deny that Jesus truly came in the flesh. Jesus was either truly a Man (flesh) or remained Spirit (God), He could not have been both during His 30+ years on earth. I stick solely to Gospel and the teaching of His apostles that He was a Man during those years and that is it. I reject any extra biblical meanings.

For the record, I firmly believe and acknowledge that Jesus (before becoming Man) was the divine Word of God in the OT, the I AM who spoke to Moses, Abraham and all OT prophets. I also believe He, in His resurrected body, is now the divine Son of God and is our God and Savior. But when He walked as a Man He was truly flesh and not in the nature of a Spirit as many falsely believe today. You can study the Gospel and ask God to reveal if this is in line with the truth.

When I say heretics, I am talking about the Gnostics in ancient times who first taught such a falsehood about Jesus, saying He was in another phantom/spiritual body and only appeared to be flesh. Docetism, a heretic teaching closely linked to Gnosticism highlighted in gotquestions.org, is very similar to what people today believe about Jesus having both Spirit and flesh qualities in His nature when He walked as a Man. In fact people who believe in the heresy of Docetism logically reject Jesus as coming in the flesh because they know full well if Jesus had a spiritual body or was divine (meaning He was Spirit) He could not have been flesh. All these comes not from the Gospel but from the spirit of antichrist.

I will not use such strong words if I did not see the extent and danger of such deceptions. But if you are concerned, let it be known I have nothing against anyone on here. If they refuse to listen, then I simply stop conversing with them so things do not escalate.

We are to love one another and I do love even those I have contended with. I would not have contended with them if I did not care whether they are rooted in truth. That said, I have made myself as clear as I can and now I leave everything to the Spirit of God. God will reveal the truth to those who truly seek and love Him.

 

[Enxu]

Hi Enxu,

I think a lot of it has to do with presuppositions. People become Christians and they're "taught" what the Bible says. People learn at churches and from other Christians before they begin to study the Bible for themselves. When they do begin to study they already have presuppositions based on what they were taught. It's through these presuppositions that they filter the text they read. I used to believe some of these same things and had many of the same presuppositions. It's by putting them aside and looking strictly at the text that I began to see the errors of the teachings that I had been taught. Once I saw this I looked at everything I believed. No doctrine was off limits. Many of those doctrines couldn't stand in light of Scripture and I got rid of them. Until one is ready to set aside their presuppositions they're not likely to see things any other way.

Human presuppositions is not the real issue. There is a spirit behind every teaching and doctrine, and we are asked to test the spirits and reject those that are not from God. False doctrines that have taken root only gets harder to root out over the centuries. This gnostic heresy (with all its versions and subtle changes) have taken root since the time of the apostles and have over 2000 years to refine and cement itself into the fabric of Christianity. It is only with the Spirit of God that one can discern and expose it.

I believe this thread has exceeded its limit in terms of discussion and has become one of much confusion and contention. If you are becoming confused then it may be better to stop discussing altogether and seek God instead.

 

[Enxu]

Hi Enxu,

I think a lot of it has to do with presuppositions. People become Christians and they're "taught" what the Bible says. People learn at churches and from other Christians before they begin to study the Bible for themselves. When they do begin to study they already have presuppositions based on what they were taught. It's through these presuppositions that they filter the text they read. I used to believe some of these same things and had many of the same presuppositions. It's by putting them aside and looking strictly at the text that I began to see the errors of the teachings that I had been taught. Once I saw this I looked at everything I believed. No doctrine was off limits. Many of those doctrines couldn't stand in light of Scripture and I got rid of them. Until one is ready to set aside their presuppositions they're not likely to see things any other way.

Also I have in my spirit a feeling that this heresy of Jesus being both Spirit and Man (dual natures) during His earthly ministry is a sinister attempt by the antichrist spirit to prepare the church to be deceived and to receive the false Messiah, the final Antichrist, who will indeed be both spirit and flesh in his nature. How is this possible?

Look at the book of Jude, which I will now quote:

Jude 1:14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

Here Jude mentions Enoch and a prophesy Enoch made. Our current Bible does not contain any texts about Enoch’s prophesy, but there is a book called the Book of Enoch, which is exactly the book that Jude quoted in his epistle.

What is written inside the book of Enoch? One major theme is about fallen angels having sexual intercourse with human women and begetting offsprings with both spirit and flesh in their nature. This is also mentioned in the Book of Genesis:

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth at that time (and also immediately afterward), when those divine beings were having sexual relations with those human women, who gave birth to children for them. These children became the heroes and legendary figures of ancient times.

In the Old Testament, sons of God referred only to angelic beings because no human being was born again in the Spirit at that time so no human being can be called sons of God. By the accounts of both Genesis and the book of Enoch, there was an event in times when women had sexual intercourse with spirit beings and begat offsprings with both spirit and flesh natures (dual natures). But this dual nature of both spirit and flesh is against the very order of God. That is why only Noah and his family was saved and the rest was destroyed by the flood.

If you study again the very first time God spoke about the enmity between the woman and the serpent (Satan), what did God say?

Genesis 3:5 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.

This means there will be two offsprings, one offspring of woman (flesh) and one offspring of Satan (dual nature of flesh and spirit). Satan’s offspring was to be born directly from him in a fleshly form because this fallen angel will have sexual intercourse with a woman just like the fallen angels did in the time of Genesis. Jesus, the seed of a woman was therefore offspring of flesh and the seed of Satan is the offspring of dual natures of flesh and spirit.

This is why the book of Enoch is hidden from the church, because were it to be taught in the churches the sinister plot of Satan wanting to deceive mankind (including the church) with a dual natured spirit-flesh Messiah would be exposed!

So by teaching the damnable heresy that Jesus was both flesh and spirit as a Man, the church is being prepared to be deceived by the seed of Satan, who will claim himself to be God and Messiah, and this man of perdition will indeed be both flesh and spirit!

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Enxu -- the book of Enoch was deleted because of that particular teaching did not agree with the rest of Scripture. Messiah was Jesus Christ in the flesh AND was God in His divinity. He Had to be in order to provide for our salvation.

You have shared that you have experienced 1st hand, God's forgiveness. God has done a wonderous work in your life. Delivered you and your family.

But -- you Also need to recognize that Jesus Christ being both human AND divine while here on earth is not only True, but Necessary.

 

[Sue D.]

Part of the Jewish belief is that the Real Messiah hasn't actually come yet. They are still waiting for Their promised Messiah -- for Them, the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -- will be , for Them, His 1st coming.

So in That 'context' -- this man, Jesus Christ, isn't really Messiah. So He would only have one nature.

but, yet, you've experienced a tremondous work of God in your life. And That has only been possible through the blood of Jesus Christ. If Jesus were simply another great religious teacher of that day , His death would have meant nothing.
He Had to be both divine AND human -- He took our sins upon Himself on the cross, died , was buried and rose again bodily. His resurrection Proved who He really was. He showed 'Doubting Thomas' his nailed scared hands and then he believed. The resurrected body of Jesus Christ was here on earth for 40 days before He ascended back up to heaven.

 

[Curtis]

So by teaching the damnable heresy that Jesus was both flesh and spirit as a Man,

An Angel speaks to Mary

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Angel Gabriel speaks to Joseph in a dream.

Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Whatever is born of "the Spirit is spirit"

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Everyone born of the Holy Spirit is spirit. flesh produces flesh, Spirit produces spirit!!

How can you say Jesus was just flesh? Jesus was both flesh, and Spirit. 100% God, 100% man in one person.

Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil

A Spirit being (the Son of God) took upon himself a flesh and blood body

 

[Christ4Ever]

I have not called anyone on these forums a heretic. I was talking about the heresy (ie. false doctrine) that people on here believe about Jesus being both Spirit (God) and Man during His 30+ years as flesh. God is Spirit, this is what Scriptures say, if Jesus remained God during those 30+ years then we also must believe He never actually became flesh but was still Spirit when He walked the earth. That is the deception coming from the spirit of antichrist as mentioned by apostle John, the spirit that seeks to deny that Jesus truly came in the flesh. Jesus was either truly a Man (flesh) or remained Spirit (God), He could not have been both during His 30+ years on earth. I stick solely to Gospel and the teaching of His apostles that He was a Man during those years and that is it. I reject any extra biblical meanings.

For the record, I firmly believe and acknowledge that Jesus (before becoming Man) was the divine Word of God in the OT, the I AM who spoke to Moses, Abraham and all OT prophets. I also believe He, in His resurrected body, is now the divine Son of God and is our God and Savior. But when He walked as a Man He was truly flesh and not in the nature of a Spirit as many falsely believe today. You can study the Gospel and ask God to reveal if this is in line with the truth.

When I say heretics, I am talking about the Gnostics in ancient times who first taught such a falsehood about Jesus, saying He was in another phantom/spiritual body and only appeared to be flesh. Docetism, a heretic teaching closely linked to Gnosticism highlighted in gotquestions.org, is very similar to what people today believe about Jesus having both Spirit and flesh qualities in His nature when He walked as a Man. In fact people who believe in the heresy of Docetism logically reject Jesus as coming in the flesh because they know full well if Jesus had a spiritual body or was divine (meaning He was Spirit) He could not have been flesh. All these comes not from the Gospel but from the spirit of antichrist.

I will not use such strong words if I did not see the extent and danger of such deceptions. But if you are concerned, let it be known I have nothing against anyone on here. If they refuse to listen, then I simply stop conversing with them so things do not escalate.

We are to love one another and I do love even those I have contended with. I would not have contended with them if I did not care whether they are rooted in truth. That said, I have made myself as clear as I can and now I leave everything to the Spirit of God. God will reveal the truth to those who truly seek and love Him.

Dear Sister,
Your use of heresy, then my comments to you concerning them.

I added this as a Moderator, not as someone who was part of the discussion at hand.

I believe you and the others here who hold to the heresy that Jesus had two natures at the same time is being deceived.

it taught a heresy that was even more deceptive: that Jesus was both Spirit (God) and man when He walked the earth.

I have found the name of the heresy believed by these people

Member Exnu,

Having a discussion in which there are opposing views, we must take great care in not letting our emotions run away with themselves. I state this because the comment you made added nothing to the conversation being had. You are coming to a conclusion concerning people that could just as easily as I've stated before, be addressed to you and yet it has not been. You might want to contemplate why it has not been.

Notice this communication to you and the one you reference was made by me to you as a Moderator. Not as a participant in the topic of the thread and is the reason I'm not addressing the topic with you in this post. Also, I hope you realize that this is not to shut you down on what you may believe or do not believe to be true. Only to inform you to take care on the word usage directed to others. I truly hope you understand what I am communicating to you here.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

P.S. When I do decide to enter the conversation on this thread, understand that I do so, not as a Moderator, but as a Brother in Christ accepting of both agreeable and disagreeable comments. I sign them only as YBIC and will not have the "Moderator" attached to it.

 

[Enxu]

Dear Sister,
Your use of heresy, then my comments to you concerning them.

I added this as a Moderator, not as someone who was part of the discussion at hand.



Member Exnu,

Having a discussion in which there are opposing views, we must take great care in not letting our emotions run away with themselves. I state this because the comment you made added nothing to the conversation being had. You are coming to a conclusion concerning people that could just as easily as I've stated before, be addressed to you and yet it has not been. You might want to contemplate why it has not been.

Notice this communication to you and the one you reference was made by me to you as a Moderator. Not as a participant in the topic of the thread and is the reason I'm not addressing the topic with you in this post. Also, I hope you realize that this is not to shut you down on what you may believe or do not believe to be true. Only to inform you to take care on the word usage directed to others. I truly hope you understand what I am communicating to you here.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

P.S. When I do decide to enter the conversation on this thread, understand that I do so, not as a Moderator, but as a Brother in Christ accepting of both agreeable and disagreeable comments. I sign them only as YBIC and will not have the "Moderator" attached to it.

I thought I explained myself already I was not addressing the term to anyone on these forums?? It is also clear that no one took things personally. I wouldn’t have taken things personally either if people tell me what I believed is heresy. It isn’t meant to be a personal attack.

That said, I will use the word “extra-biblical” in future. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Samson2020]

Seems to be a hot topic, but its morphing into another as most will.
Just want to interject a thought or two on original topic.
As John put it "In the beginning was the WORD (PLAN), and the WORD (PLAN) was with God, and the WORD (PLAN ) was God.
Anybody ever wonder why God only made Adam and then waited for him to become lonely even when he was with God and everything that God had made for him in the garden?
I submit to you that God was showing us his state of being. In that He had everything that He had created but yet was lonely in that everything He had was created by him, therefore He had no one to converse with who would have original thought. The conversation between you and your TV, or coffee pot or microwave, or car is always a one way conversation. The same could be said of God and those things He created, He already knew the answers to the questions so why ask.
Gods word always fulfills that thing to which he sent it to do before it returns to him. Now assume for a moment that it is Gods plan to reproduce himself in you. Hard to swallow? It shouldn't be because John told us that Gods plan or word was God.
Jump forward to Romans 8 " For the earnest expectation of the creature (creation) waiteth for the MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD." In other words the creation of God that was subjected to vanity (not willingly) groans within itself to be set free from vanity by the manifesting of these sons.
If it were the Fathers intention to only have one Son then why continue the earthly existence for the rest of us? Because it is his intention to have many sons.
As your Bible and mine declare that "when he shall appear we shall see him as he is because WE shall be like him." Glean from that what you will, but we know that heaven and Earth shall not pass away UNTIL ALL hath been fulfilled. Meaning that the PLAN of God will come to completion some day and then will the earth have no more use. We as spiritual beings like God will have no use for the things of the Earth which Solomon tells us are VANITY and VEXATION OF SPIRIT. But God subjected us all to this classroom knowing that within this crucible he would refine sons. First and foremost was Jesus Christ then afterward those of us who have received the Spirit from the Lord Jesus.
Now back to Adam. God used a rib from Adam to make his mate yes? Is it too much to spiritually discern that since God tells us there was nothing outside of Adam worthy to be his mate that the same could be said of us. Are we the individual spiritual cells of the RIB OF GOD? as Eve was to Adam, we are to Jesus Christ, The BRIDE OF CHRIST. Don't make it physical because we as the Bride are Spiritual beings.
Like Isaac, the son of a half brother sister union to whom the promises of God were given, we spiritually speaking are the union of a half brother and sister combination in that God gave us a spirit in this body we exist in and that spirit like it or not is FEMININE. Otherwise we would not be called the BRIDE. Now when there is a conceiving to the Holy Ghost given, as John says, by Jesus Christ our HALF BROTHER there is a new creature born that never existed before yes?
So we would see that Isaacs conception is an allegory of our own spiritual conception in that both would be considered impossible by the natural man. But yet both have occurred at least for some of us spiritually speaking.
Now consider if God sent spirits from his own rib to reside in your mortal bodies is there any chance that they (the spirits) being of holy substance were to be tossed away or did he plan for the redemption of them ALL?
I will use Colossians 1:16 "For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created BY him and FOR him."
19- "For it PLEASED THE FATHER that in him should all fullness dwell."
20- "And having MADE PEACE by the blood of his cross, by him, to RECONCILE ALL THINGS unto himself........."

Sounds like it was Gods plan that all this is taking place for the benefit of himself and us in that we are translated to a higher state of being and he is rewarded with CHILDREN.
We (the spiritual part of us) came out from God, we exist in God, and we return to God as his Children whom through experience in this world of GOOD AND EVIL have become like him for he has matured us in every way he deems necessary to make that happen.

In the garden God said that man had become like him in that he knew GOOD AND EVIL, but yet he said in that day shall ye surely die.

It is only with the mind of Christ that we can see that both GOOD AND EVIL come from God himself, the carnal mind cannot see this, therefore once somewhat matured you recognize this (Isaiah 45:7 ....I make peace and CREATE EVIL, I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS.)
Once you climb down off the tree of good and evil and begin to eat of the tree of life you will then be instructed as to the control of good and evil in order that you truly are just like your Father. For all evil that has been injected into this world was for his and our benefit and until you see this you will remain somewhat blind.
He started it and he will finish it and as Colossians 1:20 stated Jesus Christ is to RECONCILE ALL things unto himself. Because this is the will of the Father who sent him JOHN 6:39.
Most in this world have been blinded by the wisdom of God for he is mainly concerned with his FIRST group of sons first.
From my perspective we are only receiving what God has written down for us individually (on a daily basis) since before he created anything, our decisions seem to be based on our current understanding and as our understanding changes so does our decision making until the Mind of Christ be completely developed in us that we become just like Jesus Christ the captain of our salvation. Whom once said not my will but thine be done. And I believe he would not have said it if he had not received carnality at the end, for he was not born with it, as God was his Father he could not transfer a carnal mind to his son, as God did not have one. And this does show that the carnal mind would indeed try to escape what it deserves, punishment for deeds done. But he having taken the sin of the world upon him let this newly inherited mind die to the will of the Father.
It is that carnal mind that would have you believe that you have free will. Are you here on Earth of your own choice or Gods? And is it really your decisions that determine your own fate or outcome. I thank God that he knows what is best for me for I know that I do not know what I need to know in order to make myself perfect, DO YOU?

 

[Butch5]

God is NOT four people!!!

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I don't see four people here, do you?

That's my point.

 

[Butch5]

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

For the born again believer when they die physically they are immediately brought into the presence of the Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust [out of which God made man's body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it. (AMP)

The Lord God uses his angels to bring believers who have died physically, into his presence, the wicked are temporarily put into hell (hades) until judgment day.

Luk 16:22 And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. (AMP)

Mans body decays back into its elements at death, but man's soul (which is spirit) either goes to God or hell (hades)

I'm familiar with all o these passages, yet I come to a different conclusion. The reason is that I understand them differently than you do. I believe my understanding of them is correct. For instance, I would submit that 2 Cor.5:8 in context is referring to the resurrection, that the judgment in Heb 9:27 is after man dies, at the resurrection, that Ecc. 12:7 is the breath of life that returns to God, and that Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, is about the judgment that was about come upon the Jewish leadership.

 

[Butch5]

Maybe logically speak it doesn't. But we're talking about Scripture and what works in Scripture.

Of course Jesus knew where He came from -- God the Father by means of being born of a virgin. A virgin conceiving a baby by the Holy Spirit 'doesn't work' biologically, Either. Nothing logical about it. And we've also had This conversation.

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One". Ah -- but apparently it Does work. As per Scripture.

The Nicene Creed came into being by who? I just looked it up -- it came into existence as a result of a fierce debate. It is Not inspired by God. So let's stay with God's inspired word.

If we use that reasoning then I should simply reject everything you say because your words aren't inspired. Likewise, all of those Godly pastors you spoke of, you should reject their words because their not inspired. I guess you may want to consider rejecting your own thoughts as their not inspired. Do you see how nonsensical it gets when we go that route. There's nothing wrong with listening to and looking at the arguments of others. As long as we they make logical sense they could right.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 -- you feel you have to know Everything about Everything. Well -- a person's eternal future is determined here on earth. Either a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior Now -- in this life time - or they Don't.

We are Also given enough information about Both destinations to know that No one Wants to end up in lake of fire and brimstone and people will want to end up in the New Jerusalem.

Sue,

I don't feel like I have to know everything about everything. Remember, in another post I said that the discussions I get into are ones in which I've spent a lot of time in study. I understand it gets frustrating that I point out this stuff, but as I said, I've spent a lot of time studying these topics.

 

[Butch5]

Human presuppositions is not the real issue. There is a spirit behind every teaching and doctrine, and we are asked to test the spirits and reject those that are not from God. False doctrines that have taken root only gets harder to root out over the centuries. This gnostic heresy (with all its versions and subtle changes) have taken root since the time of the apostles and have over 2000 years to refine and cement itself into the fabric of Christianity. It is only with the Spirit of God that one can discern and expose it.

I believe this thread has exceeded its limit in terms of discussion and has become one of much confusion and contention. If you are becoming confused then it may be better to stop discussing altogether and seek God instead.

Confused about what?

 

[Curtis]

I'm familiar with all o these passages, yet I come to a different conclusion. The reason is that I understand them differently than you do. I believe my understanding of them is correct. For instance, I would submit that 2 Cor.5:8 in context is referring to the resurrection, that the judgment in Heb 9:27 is after man dies, at the resurrection, that Ecc. 12:7 is the breath of life that returns to God, and that Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, is about the judgment that was about come upon the Jewish leadership.

Believers are immediately brought into the Lord's presence at death. Unbelievers are taken and put into hades to await judgment.

Luk 23:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him that he would be with him in "paradise" that day! His body surely could not go where his spirit could!

Act 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God while being stoned and said, "...Lord Jesus, receive my spirit...” He did NOT say receive my body!!