Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Butch5]

Where are you getting this info from? The vast majority are identical.

No Two Biblical Manuscripts Are The Same? Old and New Testament Evidence

Have you heard the oft-repeated assertion that "no two Biblical manuscripts are the same?" It is one of the most often-repeated arguments ...

kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com

Also while Hebrew didn't have punctuation. It did exist in Greek, even before the Bible was written.

Well of course there are modern printed version that match. But that's not what I said. I spoke of Greek manuscripts. But that's not the point the point is that there are variations. The Alexandrian text varies from the Byzantine text in places. If they were all inspired copyists why are there differences?

 

[Trevor]

Amen!

Besides, when someone changes the wording, meaning or punctuation in the Bible... because "your version" is wrong,
what make their version any more right or credible?

Isa 40:8; The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.

1 Pet 1:25; BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

Rev 22:18; I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
Rev 22:19; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Hi B-A-C, Years ago, I pastored a small house church and I was invited with other church leaders to a breakfast in a hotel in Carlisle, Cumbria. in the UK, to meet and hear one of the men who translated the NIV bible, he told us how prayerfully this project was approached. While the people chosen, who were selected from many different denominations, all with different expertise, and all well respected believers, were studying all the different texts in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and translating them into English, there were a host of devout Christians constantly covering them in prayer. When I hear people who make claims that these translations are false, I tend to wonder how many prayful believers they called upon to verify and agree with their findings and how many prayer warriors they had to watch their backs to save them from being deceived by the enemy? Bless you.

 

[Butch5]

Where are you getting this info from? The vast majority are identical.

No Two Biblical Manuscripts Are The Same? Old and New Testament Evidence

Have you heard the oft-repeated assertion that "no two Biblical manuscripts are the same?" It is one of the most often-repeated arguments ...

kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com

Also while Hebrew didn't have punctuation. It did exist in Greek, even before the Bible was written.

Again, that's not what I said. Here is a picture of Luke 23:43 from Sinaticus. No punctuation.

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[Butch5]

Hi B-A-C, Years ago, I pastored a small house church and I was invited with other church leaders to a breakfast in a hotel in Carlisle, Cumbria. in the UK, to meet and hear one of the men who translated the NIV bible, he told us how prayerfully this project was approached. While the people chosen, who were selected from many different denominations, all with different expertise, and all well respected believers, were studying all the different texts in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and translating them into English, there were a host of devout Christians constantly covering them in prayer. When I hear people who make claims that these translations are false, I tend to wonder how many prayful believers they called upon to verify and agree with their findings and how many prayer warriors they had to watch their backs to save them from being deceived by the enemy? Bless you.

That's awesome. However, there are certain requirements to be on those committees. If you don't hold certain things to be true you don't get invited. That's a good way to make sure that everyone is one the same page. Do you agree that the Jehovah's Witness translation is inspired by the Sprint of God?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, I have been a Christian, first Philosophically and then as a born again believer for over fifty years, just before I gave my life to Jesus, after twenty years of believing in his philosophy, the Lord challenged me and told me I would find the truth In the written word, the bible. For over fifty years the scriptures have been my guide and through them, my life has totally changed, I have become a totally different person. Romans 1:21-25 this scripture speaks about changing God's truth into a lie. To believe that God would allow anyone to miss translate his word is to not give credence to his power or his love for the saints. Bless you.

That's an opinion. I gave you clear evidence where translators have wrongly translated passages. 1 Peter 1 1:12 is an example. Do you reject what I said regarding the passage? The Greek text clearly shows Elect in verse one and not verse two, yet many if not most translations put it in verse two which changes what the passage says. If putting it in verse two is not correct how can we understand those translators as being inspired by the Spirit?


You're more than welcome to show me the error of my ways. Where do the Scriptures teach that man is a spirit and that he goes to Heaven when he dies? I'm all ears.

 

[Trevor]

That's awesome. However, there are certain requirements to be on those commodities. If you don't hold certain things to be true you don't get invited. That's a good way to make sure that everyone is one the same page. Do you agree that the Jehovah's Witness translation is inspired by the Sprint of God?

The JW Bible Butch, is out of sinc with every other translation, and so is IMO not inspired by the Spirit of God. And also the witnesses, believe in salvation by works and not Grace, that's why they go door to door. As for being on the same page, I thought believers give up their understandings to take on the understandings of Jesus. Proverbs 3: 5-6. bless you

 

[Butch5]

The JW Bible Butch, is out of sinc with every other translation, and so is IMO not inspired by the Spirit of God. And also the witnesses, believe in salvation by works and not Grace, that's why they go door to door. As for being on the same page, I thought believers give up their understandings to take on the understandings of Jesus. Proverbs 3: 5-6. bless you

OK, but you said we should understand the translators as inspired by God, Yet concerning this translation you've rejected it based on the opinion of man. That seems inconsistent. How do you know the JW translation isn't the correct one and the other incorrect? If the JW translators could be wrong, why can't the translators of the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc. be wrong?

 

[CareGiver]

We do not understand. We try to show things that most do not understand, but instead of debating to prove/disprove with Scripture, we see exchanges of where a comma should be placed, which is way off track from what we thought this thread is about. It appears that Christian forums are not the best way to help believers to understand. Many devoted believers who love the LORD, and some believers who want to debate/argue to defend what they have come to believe (and perhaps even myself) with eyes to see with, but yet blind,......ears to hear with, yet deaf. If America is "turned over to the beast," (Revelation 17) because of a passive/complacent/tickle-tickle excuse for Christianity, we can trust the LORD that it will be for good, to set us free from our worldly lusts and draw us to the LORD, to gain a knowledge of good/evil and wisdom to be responsible heirs of the Kingdom of GOD, and so the LORD will be merciful to unbelievers. If my understanding is in error, please show me, but do not just pass over it with words of blah blah. Be Bereans, PROVE/DISPROVE with Scripture and do not merely defend what you were taught.

Take care, and may GOD bless,...........In Christ

 

[Trevor]

That's an opinion. I gave you clear evidence where translators have wrongly translated passages. 1 Peter 1 1:12 is an example. Do you reject what I said regarding the passage? The Greek text clearly shows Elect in verse one and not verse two, yet many if not most translations put it in verse two which changes what the passage says. If putting it in verse two is not correct how can we understand those translators as being inspired by the Spirit?


You're more than welcome to show me the error of my ways. Where do the Scriptures teach that man is a spirit and that he goes to Heaven when he dies? I'm all ears.

You haven't given me any clear evidence, all you've done is show that you can change the meaning of a text by changing the place of a comma.
Scripture tells us, that we are temples 1 Corinthians 6: 19. The temple of Solomon consisted of the outer court, the holy place and the holy of holies

OK, but you said we should understand the translators as inspired by God, Yet concerning this translation you've rejected it based on the opinion of man. That seems inconsistent. How do you know the JW translation isn't the correct one and the other incorrect? If the JW translators could be wrong, why can't the translators of the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc. be wrong?

Why can't you be wrong?

 

[Butch5]

We do not understand. We try to show things that most do not understand, but instead of debating to prove/disprove with Scripture, we see exchanges of where a comma should be placed, which is way off track from what we thought this thread is about. It appears that Christian forums are not the best way to help believers to understand. Many devoted believers who love the LORD, and some believers who want to debate/argue to defend what they have come to believe (and perhaps even myself) with eyes to see with, but yet blind,......ears to hear with, yet deaf. If America is "turned over to the beast," (Revelation 17) because of a passive/complacent/tickle-tickle excuse for Christianity, we can trust the LORD that it will be for good, to set us free from our worldly lusts and draw us to the LORD, to gain a knowledge of good/evil and wisdom to be responsible heirs of the Kingdom of GOD, and so the LORD will be merciful to unbelievers. If my understanding is in error, please show me, but do not just pass over it with words of blah blah. Be Bereans, PROVE/DISPROVE with Scripture and do not merely defend what you were taught.

Take care, and may GOD bless,...........In Christ

Interesting. The comma argument is valid and yet goes unaddressed except to dismiss it. There is no comma in the original text.

Truly truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.

A person can read that two ways. They can read it

Truly truly I say to you / today you will be with me in Paradise

Or they could read it

Truly truly I say to you today / you will be with me in Paradise

Which is correct and why?

 

[Butch5]

You haven't given me any clear evidence, all you've done is show that you can change the meaning of a text by changing the place of a comma.
Scripture tells us, that we are temples 1 Corinthians 6: 19. The temple of Solomon consisted of the outer court, the holy place and the holy of holies
Why can't you be wrong?

Sure I have. 1 Peter 1:1-2. The translators changed the word order from the Greek to fit their beliefs. It changes the meaning of the sentence. If it reads differently than the Greek it was translated from how can it be inspired?

I can be wrong. I offered for you to show me where I'm wrong. But asking me that just avoids answering the question that was presented.

If you choose to believe that translations are inspired that's your prerogative. However, the implication from your post was that my statement was wrong because translations are inspired. That's why I questioned that belief.

 

[CareGiver]

Is the placement of this comma really that important, or when the thief would be with Him in paradise? With the LORD, one day is a thosand years and a thousand years one day. We thought the thread is supposed to be about baptism and being born again. In respect to your question, GOD is the Savior of ALL men, until we ALL come to a knowledge of the Son and the fullness of His stature (image of invisible GOD), for HE has made ALL things beautiful, in HIS time. The LORD is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance, for He Who began a good word in us will complete it, from glory to glory our spiritual growth is asymtotic; ever more like GOD, but only GOD is GOD... We can be in heaven, even while in/on earth, for GOD is IN US and we are IN GOD.

Take care, and may GOD bless,............

 

[CareGiver]

And in respect to your previous question,.........we said, "If my understanding is in error, please show me", and, .........."some believers want to debate/argue to defend what they have come to believe (and perhaps even myself) with eyes to see with, but yet blind,......ears to hear with, yet deaf." I am not the LORD. I'm just someone who believes GOD has revealed understanding that gives an overall perspective that can help to clarify what the Bible means in respect to salvation and resurrection by the grace of GOD for our faith in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. I wrestled with the meaning of Romans 6:3-7 for just about every day of the last ~27 years (literally), and we have recently come to an understanding that we believe makes the most sense. And so, we have been trying to help others to see and understand, so that we might bring the body of Christ to a unity of faith and for the "dead in Christ" to rise first, to bring the kingdoms of this world, to be the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ (His saints).

Take care, and may GOD bless,.........

 

[Hekuran]

Interesting. The comma argument is valid and yet goes unaddressed except to dismiss it. There is no comma in the original text.

Truly truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.

A person can read that two ways. They can read it

Truly truly I say to you / today you will be with me in Paradise

Or they could read it

Truly truly I say to you today / you will be with me in Paradise

Which is correct and why?

Reading this as 'truly, truly I say to you today,' doesn't sit well with the story in which it is found. It's a phrase that used to emphasise urgency and immediacy. But it's part of an exchange between two men who were being executed, with hours or minutes left to live. Why would Jesus emphasise 'today' to a man who certainly would not be alive on earth tomorrow?

I understand that it's a possible way to read the text, but it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Revelation 22:19

 

[Hekuran]

Revelation 22:19

Nobody in this thread has taken or added to scripture. It's a question of how best to translate a particular phrase.

This thread was more engaging when we were discussing what Jesus meant by the phrase 'born again'.

It's perfectly plausible that he was referring to resurrection, which is one of the central themes of the gospel.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Colossians 1:27
2 Corinthians 13:5
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 4:19
Ephesians 3:17
Do you see plaisabilty in any of these?

 

[Hekuran]

Colossians 1:27
2 Corinthians 13:5
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 4:19
Ephesians 3:17
Do you see plaisabilty in any of these?

Yes, I believe them all wholeheartedly. I don't see a conflict.

Jesus taught both that 'the kingdom of God is near' and 'the kingdom is among you'. We see Jesus' lordship now, but only in part. Now and not yet


When he returns, or when we are resurrected we shall see it in full.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Halalujia!!!!

 

[Butch5]

Is the placement of this comma really that important, or when the thief would be with Him in paradise? With the LORD, one day is a thosand years and a thousand years one day. We thought the thread is supposed to be about baptism and being born again. In respect to your question, GOD is the Savior of ALL men, until we ALL come to a knowledge of the Son and the fullness of His stature (image of invisible GOD), for HE has made ALL things beautiful, in HIS time. The LORD is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance, for He Who began a good word in us will complete it, from glory to glory our spiritual growth is asymtotic; ever more like GOD, but only GOD is GOD... We can be in heaven, even while in/on earth, for GOD is IN US and we are IN GOD.

Take care, and may GOD bless,............

The placement of the comma is extremely important if were going to understand what the text says