Except There Comes A FALLING AWAY 1st, , A Rebellion, A Turning From, A Defection, A Forsake, of The Truth "Apostasy" we need to discuss this now!

[PloughBoy]

why do you say only Jew are the elect?

The question is not how are Jews going to be saved, the question is what is God doing with the Jews at the end of the 7 years?

Ezekiel 36:
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God


Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

it is hard to read that black print, my computer is set up for night mode. It shows up like black print on black paper or real dark gray paper.

 

[PloughBoy]

How can we discuss it, when you say "falling away" is impossible?

"Falling Away" is not loosing your Salvation. But True Christian Falling Away from the Truth of The WORD of God! "The time will come when they will not endure "Sound Doctrine" How can a NON- christians fall away from something they never had? How can non-christians endure "sound doctrine" when they never had sound doctrine? you see it everywhere True Christians are turning away from the word of God and replace it with ideas of God and what they want and what God is, They are falling away from The Truth of Gods word! True Born from above christians.

The definition for "Falling AWAY" is: ", A Rebellion, A Turning From, A Defection, A Forsake, of The Truth "Apostasy" each one of these words is a definition for "falling away" look the definition for the biblical term "Falling AWAY" in "ISBE" Webster is not what you look in! "FALLING AWAY" is a "Biblical term" "Biblical terminology" and please do not use a "Family Dollar store size "Bible Dictionary"

 

[rhern53]

I didn't say it, you did.

I was answering your question: #2 who are the "elect" and why are they still on the Earth during this time?

I was answering your question with: in this case "the Jews"

the elect are those who belong to God

what do you thinks about what God will do with the Jews from Ezekiel 36, 37

 

[B-A-C]

"Falling Away" is not loosing your Salvation. But True Christian Falling Away from the Truth of The WORD of God! "The time will come when they will not endure "Sound Doctrine" How can a NON- christians fall away from something they never had? How can non-christians endure "sound doctrine" when they never had sound doctrine? you see it everywhere True Christians are turning away from the word of God and replace it with ideas of God and what they want and what God is, They are falling away from The Truth of Gods word! True Born from above christians.

I disagree. You can't have salvation without faith.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You can't fall away from something you never had to begin with. Besides faith, you can't be saved without "the truth" (truth of the word as you put it)

1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Tim 2:25; with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2Tim 3:7; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Tit 1:1; Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

 

[B-A-C]

your question:
#2 who are the "elect" and why are they still on the Earth during this time?

I was answering your question with in this case "the Jews"

the elect are those who belong to God

It is hard to follow your answer. Is the elect only Jews or not?
If the "elect" in Matt 24 are only the Jews, then only Jews will be raptured in Matt 24.

 

[PloughBoy]

I disagree. You can't have salvation without faith.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You can't fall away from something you never had to begin with. Besides faith, you can't be saved without "the truth" (truth of the word as you put it)

1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Tim 2:25; with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2Tim 3:7; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Tit 1:1; Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

you said you cannot be saved without faith, I will say this, you get saved before you have faith, Faith is a gift from God to believe. Paul did not have faith to believe in Jesus until Jesus gave him faith to believe. You have nothing to boast about! You have done nothing to earn your salvation not matter what you may think! Show me the evidence of your faith that got you saved?

PS. I am not addressing 1 Tim 4:1 look at the english syntax there please. but i am "addressing" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Please look at the English syntax "falling away" is not the same in (1 Tim. 4:1) as in (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

And please reread POST# 1 the last sentence on that page. for clarity.

and please read Post # 3 for clarity again, in response to the "Great Falling AWAY" of The Saints of God" they tie in together! the Book Of Daniel! This is for Discussion. I thought i made the discussion clear. chew it slowly if not you might choke on the meat!

 

[rhern53]

It is hard to follow your answer. Is the elect only Jews or not?
If the "elect" in Matt 24 are only the Jews, then only Jews will be raptured in Matt 24.

not raptured in Matthew 24

This is 2 Thessalonians 2

Jews are and christians are call the elect

The Jew will not be raptured, they will go though the 7 year tribulation and then they go into the Kingdom

After The Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, the antichrist is revealed then begins the 7 year tribulation

The Jews will be persecuted to no end. (3 1/2years) the purpose is total inhalation.

the antichrist will allow to build the temple and Jews practice the sacrifices " Pass Over" they will do this for 3 1/2 years until The Abomination of Desolation at the mid point of 7 years.
In the middle of the 7 years it is believed the antichrist will slaughter a pig in the temple.... something so abominable that brings desolation of the Jews. Then begins the destruction of Jews.
The Lord cut this destruction short (end of 7 years) otherwise there will be no Jews left. The Lord comes to their rescue. And His feet will stand on the mount of Olives.
He (The Lord) destroys those who were against Israel. But there will be survivors in the world. The Lord is now King of the world, establishing His Kingdom, placing the 12 Apostle to Judge all Israel.
The Lord command all remaining people of the world to come to Jerusalem once a year to celebrate the feast of tabernacle.

The Lord is King this is the Kingdom

All that I have written can be researched and found in scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

you said you cannot be saved without faith, I will say this, you get saved before you have faith, Faith is a gift from God to believe.

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

I believe the grace and the salvation in Eph 2:8-9; are the gift, not the faith. But even if it is... Faith is an action.. faith isn't what you say you believe, it's what you do.
The Bible says "all men" receive a measure of faith.

By Faith
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;

Heb 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:18 it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."
Heb 11:19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
Heb 11:35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
Heb 11:36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
Heb 11:38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
Heb 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,


1Pet 1:6; In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pet 1:8; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

 

[B-A-C]

Jews are and christians are call the elect

The Jew will not be raptured, they will go though the 7 year tribulation and then they go into the Kingdom

After The Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, the antichrist is revealed then begins the 7 year tribulation

You cant have it both ways, especially in the same passage of scripture. Either the the "elect" that get raptured in Matt 24 are just Jews,
Or the the "elect" that are still around during the tribulation in Matt 24 are not just Jews.

You can't change the meaning and context of the word "elect" in the middle of a scripture passage.

 

[rhern53]

You cant have it both ways, especially in the same passage of scripture. Either the the "elect" that get raptured in Matt 24 are just Jews,
Or the the "elect" that are still around during the tribulation in Matt 24 are not just Jews.

You can't change the meaning and context of the word "elect" in the middle of a scripture passage.

there is not mention of a rapture in Matthew 24

 

[rhern53]

You cant have it both ways, especially in the same passage of scripture. Either the the "elect" that get raptured in Matt 24 are just Jews,
Or the the "elect" that are still around during the tribulation in Matt 24 are not just Jews.

You can't change the meaning and context of the word "elect" in the middle of a scripture passage.

this is not the rapture

matthew 24:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is the Great Tribulation

This is the Kingdom, Christ is coming for His elect

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It will last a 1000 years

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[PloughBoy]

B-A-C since post number 4 you have redirected this thread in direction of your own choosing and diverted my Thread with a sense of hostility, and I have been patient as one can be, but you still have ignore my intention of the thread and you want to direct me into the direction you want to go, when there are many Threads on TalkJesus concerning the topic you want to address. When i have made it clear on this thread of direction that a mere "Plough boy" can understand. I have been kind and patient. but now i will speak up! Only thing i can think of you didn't read my post, or you read them and you gave them no concern but ignore them on purpose.

 

[B-A-C]

there is not mention of a rapture in Matthew 24

Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In a way, you are right.. the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible... it simply means "gather up or "gather together". Matt 24:31 is speaking of the rapture.

 

[B-A-C]

B-A-C since post number 4 you have redirected this thread in direction of your own choosing and diverted my Thread

I apologize, I am done.

 

[PloughBoy]

I apologize, I am done.

accepted

 

[PloughBoy]

LOL!!!

 

[Trevor]

The Bible does say names can be erased from the BOL in a few places. Also most Bible translations don't say "before" the foundation of the Earth, they say "since" before the foundation of the Earth.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Exod 32:32; "But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"

There's those white robes again... (sorry, another thread).

I shall give it more thought and prayer B. A. C.

 

[Curtis]

No one is saved by "Faith"!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is the only way anyone "could" be saved, but without "faith" that grace can not be accessed! (Romans 5:1-2)

All men do NOT have faith! (2 Th 3:2)

What ALL men do have is "grace" by which they could be saved!

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[Curtis]

We know God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these three are one. Each member of the Godhead are called God, but each member has a different function from each other, but they all agree in one, and in purpose. When I think about the Book of Life I am not told a whole lot about it, as it seems mysterious, but I think I can come to some conclusions based on what I do know from scriptures.

If God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have different functions within the Godhead then each member should have their own record-keeping book in which they keep track for them self's, and in the end, they should all agree together with each other. This is an interesting scripture here.....

1Jn 5:7 FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJV)

Some scholars do not believe that the verses, “ in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost....” as some of the oldest original text have them omitted. It makes no difference because the word “testify” which most translations use means “to bear record, or bear witness”. Each member of the Godhead has its own book, in which “RECORDS” are kept.

My understanding of this subject is this.

The “BOOK OF LIFE” is what God the Father uses to keep track of all who have been born on planet earth. When a person dies without ever accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, that person's name is “blotted” out from the Book of Life. We know this to be true because of this scripture.....

20:15 And IF ANYONE'S NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

A person's name must appear in the Book of Life, or they are cast into the lake of fire!!! Names are being added to and taken away every day.

Then we have the “LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE”. I wonder to whom this book belongs to? This is Jesus's own book, and all the names written in it were written before the foundation of the world. No one's name can ever be blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life!! There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that says any name can be blotted out of this book. The reason why is because God already knows every single person who will accept Jesus as their Savior, and he knew this before the foundation of the world.

Just because someone's name is written in the Lambs Book of Life, that does not mean they have no choice in choosing Jesus as their savior. All the names in this book have been given a free will choice to choose to whom they will serve, it's just God already knew what their choice was going to be, so he wrote them into this Book!!

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it (The Holy City of God) , nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone WHOSE NAME HAS NOT BEEN WRITTEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB who was slain.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw used to exist. But now he does not. He will come up out of the Abyss. He will be destroyed. Some of the people who live on the earth will be amazed when they see the beast. Their names have not been written in the Book of Life from the time the world was created. They will be amazed because even though the beast used to exist and now does not, he will come again. (Nirv)

During the “tribulations” period every person whose name was NOT written in the Book of Life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world will worship the beast.

Then there is a book called, “THE BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE”. I believe this book to belongs to the Holy Spirit because Jesus once said that when the Holy Spirit comes he will bring to our remembrance everything he has spoken to us. Every time a person thinks about the Lord his God and talks about him, everything is recorded into this book......

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and A BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE WAS WRITTEN BEFORE HIM FOR THEM THAT FEARED THE LORD, AND THAT THOUGHT UPON HIS NAME.

I do not think the Lord forgets anything, except for our sins that we have confessed before him, nor does he need remembering what we have said, or thought. I think it is for our benefit that he keeps these records. In the end, the only names that will be found in the Book of Life, and the Lambs Book of Life, and the book of remembrance will be his Church. The Holy Spirit will bear witness to these truths by bringing forth all that we have said and thought throughout our life here on earth.

There are three that bear RECORD the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they all three agree in one.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Notice: more than one "book" is used to judge people!

 

[Trevor]

I shall give it more thought and prayer B. A. C.

I have checked the KJV Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: and the NLT: Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. and the NIV Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. and all three say before. Also Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glory. Firstly we were chosen before the foundation of the world, secondly we were predestined and thirdly we were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit and these guarantee our inheritance, not only that, but we are God's possession. Come on B.A.C, how much proof do we need? Bless you bro.