Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?

[Andyindauk]

Hi Andy,

I'm more than willing to discuss this with you. However, I'm going to ask again that you refrain from condemning statements so that this thread doesn't get closed, It's not fair to those who would like serious discussion. I would ask you again, If what you say is what the Bible teaches, why don't we find it taught in the church until the 5th century. Please answer this question.

I realize that you understand these passages a certain way. Have you considered that they could be understood differently? Regarding the use of the masculine pronouns, He and Him for the Spirit, that's what we find in the English translations. If we look at the Greek text we find that the pronouns are not masculine but neuter. In the Greek text the Spirit is referred to as, it. The only place in the Greek text where the Spirit is called "He" is in John where Jesus called the Spirit the Comforter. The reason that the Spirit is called "He" in this case is because of a grammatical requirement of the Greek text. Greek requires that the pronouns match the gender of the noun. The Greek word that is translated "conforter" is masculine in gender, therefore, the language requires that the pronoun be masculine also. If Jesus was talking about a rock and called it the comforter, He would have to say, he, even though the rock is actually an it.

I've mention translator bias in other threads and this is a case of it. Most if not all translation boards require one to hold the Trinity position in order to work on a translation. This being the case every translation will lean toward a Trinitarian view of the Scriptures. When making a translation the Trinity doctrine is never challenged, thus every translation supports it.

1 John 5:7, known as the Johannine Comma is most likely an addition to the text as it's only found is a few very late texts. It's not found in any early texts of the Bible. But, even if it was original is could be easily understood in the sense of unity. The Father and the Son are in unity. Jesus said plainly that He had come to do the will of the Father. He said in the garden, 'not my will but thine be done'. So we see that they are unified. Saying I and the Father are one shows that they are unified. It doesn't show that the Father and the Son are the same when Jesus says the Father sent me or when He says He is returning to the Father. One cannot leave and return to oneself.

The passages I gave you are pretty clear. Luke equates the Holy Spirit with the power of the Highest. And Jesus said when He was speaking of the Comforter, which Scripture says is the Holy Spirit, He was speaking figuratively of the Father. Can you please address these?

[/QUOTE]

Hi Butch,

I'm done quoting Bible verses to you; you just disregard them as mistranslations. Instead I'll share with you my experience of the Holy Spirit working within me. All too often I have a tendency to slip into complacency, my frequent prayers become perfunctory daily prayers and even one or two of them might slip. Up now, when this happens there's been a realisation, Andy, what are you doing? Get back to God! Sometimes it's worse than complacency and I slip into sin, and again, I get this dreadful feeling that I have grieved God, I have that prodigal son moment Luke 15:17-18. These are not just ideas and notions, no, they're almost audible voices in my head, and before you say it, no, my mental health is fine. I believe that in both instances I'm being told by the Holy Spirit as per Ephesians 6:12.

I can reflect back, and when I go through difficult and challenging times, I will sometimes disregard advice given to me because I know paths and decisions I must take. I might sound a bit arrogant, I'm not; I just know, and I believe that that knowledge is given to me by the Holy Spirit and up to now I'm able to look back and say to myself I was right and my well meaning better qualified than me, advisors' advice was wrong.

Often when I'm praying, praising God, my thoughts take on a momentum of their own, it's like the Holy Spirit is taking over, telling God how wonderful and incredible He is and why I love Him like I do, it's an amazing experience. Is this Romans 8:26? I think it might be but I do know it's a wonderful feeling.

To answer your question about the teachings of the Church in the first 500 years, I don't know or care and I doubt that there's any reliable records of it, assuming that the Church in this period was one homogeneous group, which I doubt. It was during this period that the Catholic Church developed into what for all intents and purposes was the only show in town, with some pretty wonky ideas. So don't waste your time worrying about the past, focus instead on the here and now. I'm asking you to put aside your history books and translations and ask yourself again, does the Holy Spirit exist and if He does, is He God?

In summary Butch, I'm saying that I know from personal experience that there is a Holy Spirit and that He is God. More than that, you to can experience that same Holy Spirit working in your life. To receive the Holy Spirit you have to become a Christian, you might think you are but you're not otherwise you wouldn't be spouting these things. You need to repent, surrender to God, follow Jesus and ask God to give you the Holy Spirit, and you'll be able to experience Him for yourself.

I'm still praying for you mate.

With love, Andy

 

[complete]

The very reference in the Bible to the Trinity is Genesis 1:24‭-26 NKJV
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Can anyone spot it?

Hello @Andyindauk,

I prefer to praise God for what I read rather than analyse and dissect it. God has said it, and I believe it.

' In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him;
and without Him was not any thing made that was made.'
(Joh 1:1-3)

'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity,
and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.
Let no man despise thee.'
(Titus 2:11-15)

Praise God! Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Andyindauk]

Hello @Andyindauk,

I prefer to praise God for what I read rather than analyse and dissect it. God has said it, and I believe it.

' In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him;
and without Him was not any thing made that was made.'
(Joh 1:1-3)

'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity,
and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.
Let no man despise thee.'
(Titus 2:11-15)

Praise God! Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

That first couple of chapters in Genesis are tantalising aren't they? The Holy Spirit is mentioned even earlier -
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 NKJV.

But whilst the Trinity was involved in the creation of Adam, God went solo when creating Eve -

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
Genesis 2:21‭-‬22 NKJV

One day, all the detail will be revealed and all our questions answered

God bless you.

 

[complete]

That first couple of chapters in Genesis are tantalising aren't they? The Holy Spirit is mentioned even earlier -
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 NKJV.

But whilst the Trinity was involved in the creation of Adam, God went solo when creating Eve -

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
Genesis 2:21‭-‬22 NKJV

One day, all the detail will be revealed and all our questions answered

God bless you.

Hello @Andyindauk,

With respect, I do not believe that what you have said concerning the creation of Eve should be said. For God is One. Imposing that understanding onto the text is in danger of doing despite to the word of God. Do you see?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

I'm done quoting Bible verses to you; you just disregard them as mistranslations. Instead I'll share with you my experience of the Holy Spirit working within me. All too often I have a tendency to slip into complacency, my frequent prayers become perfunctory daily prayers and even one or two of them might slip. Up now, when this happens there's been a realisation, Andy, what are you doing? Get back to God! Sometimes it's worse than complacency and I slip into sin, and again, I get this dreadful feeling that I have grieved God, I have that prodigal son moment Luke 15:17-18. These are not just ideas and notions, no, they're almost audible voices in my head, and before you say it, no, my mental health is fine. I believe that in both instances I'm being told by the Holy Spirit as per Ephesians 6:12.

I can reflect back, and when I go through difficult and challenging times, I will sometimes disregard advice given to me because I know paths and decisions I must take. I might sound a bit arrogant, I'm not; I just know, and I believe that that knowledge is given to me by the Holy Spirit and up to now I'm able to look back and say to myself I was right and my well meaning better qualified than me, advisors' advice was wrong.

Often when I'm praying, praising God, my thoughts take on a momentum of their own, it's like the Holy Spirit is taking over, telling God how wonderful and incredible He is and why I love Him like I do, it's an amazing experience. Is this Romans 8:26? I think it might be but I do know it's a wonderful feeling.

To answer your question about the teachings of the Church in the first 500 years, I don't know or care and I doubt that there's any reliable records of it, assuming that the Church in this period was one homogeneous group, which I doubt. It was during this period that the Catholic Church developed into what for all intents and purposes was the only show in town, with some pretty wonky ideas. So don't waste your time worrying about the past, focus instead on the here and now. I'm asking you to put aside your history books and translations and ask yourself again, does the Holy Spirit exist and if He does, is He God?

In summary Butch, I'm saying that I know from personal experience that there is a Holy Spirit and that He is God. More than that, you to can experience that same Holy Spirit working in your life. To receive the Holy Spirit you have to become a Christian, you might think you are but you're not otherwise you wouldn't be spouting these things. You need to repent, surrender to God, follow Jesus and ask God to give you the Holy Spirit, and you'll be able to experience Him for yourself.

I'm still praying for you mate.

With love, Andy

Hi Andy, I don't disagree with anything you've said here, except that I'm not a Christian. However, nothing here really applies to the subject at hand. I've not denied the existence of the Holy Spirit. I don't know where that idea has come from. I've stated plainly that I believe the Spirit is a manifestation of the Father. You said, "I'm asking you to put aside your history books and translations and ask yourself again, does the Holy Spirit exist and if He does, is He God?" I already stated yes several times. What I've disagreed with is the idea that the Holy Spirit is a third person.

As for putting away history, and another has suggested reasoning, I won't do that. I won't presume to understand a foreign culture and language apart from those who actually lived it. If I set aside history and reason I have no way to know if I am correctly understanding anything. At that point I could believe anything, even the impossible. There was a time when I left my learning up to others. Others that I thought were more well versed in the Scriptures than I was. That lead to me being mislead. I was taught things that aren't so. I won't go down that road anymore. If one sets reason aside, how do they even know if something is from the Spirit? I have had Christians tell me that they were taught something by the Spirit and yet what they said was absolutely contrary to God's word. Am I to believe that the Spirit teaches contrary to God's word? Were these people wrong? They believed they learned this from the Spirit and yet it contradicted God's word. What do we make of that?

You said,

"I don't know or care and I doubt that there's any reliable records of it, assuming that the Church in this period was one homogeneous group, which I doubt. It was during this period that the Catholic Church developed into what for all intents and purposes was the only show in town, with some pretty wonky ideas."

I agree that the Catholic Church was formed during this time. Have you considered that this doctrine that we are discussing is one of those ideas that you speak of? The Trinity doctrine is a Catholic doctrine. It was formed in the early Catholic church. It has its codification in the Athanasian Creed. One very troubling statement in that creed says that if one doesn't believe the things written in the creed one can't be saved. The Catholic Church too says that it is the true church and unless one belongs to it they cannot be saved. Do we see a pattern here?

So, you see, the study of church history isn't detrimental to my faith, rather it strengthens my faith. At one point, when I let others study for me, I was being taught the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election, and I was shown all of the appropriate passages. However, it was my study of church history that showed me that the earliest Christians taught no such thing, In fact, they actually argued against that idea. Through a study of Church history I was able to see where this idea entered into the church and how it made it's way to where it is today. So again, this study hadn't been detrimental to my faith but rather has been uplifting.

For a while I wondered how a doctrine that isn't found in Scripture became the determining factor in who is and isn't a Christian, as I've this from quite a few people. However, when we read the Athanasian Creed we can see how it became the determining factor. The Catholic church which primarily controlled the Scriptures in the west created a creed that said unless one believes these things, Trinitarian doctrine, they cannot be saved. When the Protestant Reformation came along they never questioned this doctrine so it just continued on. However, as I said, it doesn't appear in the church until the fifth century.

The Nicene Creed which is what many Christians say they hold to begins by practically quoting the apostle Paul verbatim. "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible." That's what Paul said, 'to us there is one God the Father'. The creed goes on.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

Literally, God out of God, Light out of Light. That's what they believed and taught.

Here is the salutation of a letter written by Ignatius. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, he was taught by John. He was appointed bishop at Antioch by the Apostle Peter. This is how he understood the Son.

I write this letter to you from Philippi. May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through Him who was begotten before time began! And may I behold you in the kingdom of Christ! I salute him who is to bear rule over you in my stead: may I have joy of him in the Lord! Fare ye well in God, and in Christ, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

He writes of the one who is unbegotten, the Father, and the one who was begotten before time began. He understood that there are two here, one unbegotten and one begotten.

 

[Br. Bear]

May i say, a vine without branches is not really a vine?
Ah.... but, My father is the Husbandman...
yes, He us... but, a Husbandman without a vine is a ?

Bless you all ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings Brother,

May i make a point or two regarding some of what you share.
For the most part i am hearing you and i would like to say i agree with you BUT....

it is about 'completeness' ie, being complete [not our fellow Member complete @complete ]
Can a Father be complete without a Son? Not really ... or really, not at all.

In much the same way, some of what you share, which ought to be both more widely known, and also, more readily welcomed, as it is historical and relevant in that, is not complete, as such.

What we can do, is to take one portion of anything, and set it aside, and make a complete illusion to it in our minds, as well as expect others to accept it as a complete picture. I say this with great love and with no offence directed at you, so please understand i am writing to you as one i want to think is OK with such talk, as being for building up, not tearing [you] down.

Yes, the 5th Century saw some different stuff entering the scene. Let's go back there for a minute. We see a lot of rotten tomatoes and plenty of poison being dished up everywhere and lots who are power hungry etc etc. We also see in all this a lot of real heresy and deliberate false teaching and deceitful and wolf like characters. Add all that to a mix of prevalent thought and left overs from the Roman and Greek mythology, and you NEED a creed to draw the line somewhere. to differentiate between basically, right and wrong.
I do not think the idea was to make a doctrine that people 1500 years later would be arguing over as a deciding factor of Salvation or not, that is, if one is into the 'Trinity' or not. but, i do think you'll find that it was for the general good of the 'Church' and the 'Faith', that it was presented as it was. Was it par excellence? Not really, but i was not there with you making all the decisions. We are here now, in the comfort and affordability of history at our fingertips, so we can make proper judgements and cast our lot.

If i may continue, and this is what i wanted to say, so please major on this part if any...
I often am reminded of thinking about how we are able to read the Gospel... and now we also have it on oodles of translations etc with all the references etc, on screens and with the help of modern technology and computerized gadgets. We can read. point one. That is a big leap forward, even if it also has it's drawbacks - that is another subject, though! - and we have the Bible as well as more importantly, we have somehow got the Faith that was made available to men through the life of Christ.
[Where is he going with all this , he asks?? ]

When i have read parts of the horrific history of the Catholic and Protestant and other professing denominations, right through to today's creepy pseudo churches around the planet, i can feel both sickened and ashamed. I don't want to tell too many people i am a Christian, if that is what one looks like to them! However, where did our Bibles come from? How did we [ uman race] manage to get the Scriptures we have now? Was it only by and through those who stood opposed to the Catholic Church? And all other denominations? I don't think so..

Some 'stories' in the Bible don't really make all that much sense from our perspective. Look at Sampson and what his family were blessed with and how he went basically against the 'law' and got into affairs with Philistine women. And the LORD said it was OK because He had a plan to send 'salvation' to the Children of Israel.
Our way of thinking would definitely have scrapped that plan, before it got to print!
There are other 'strange' stories and accounts.
In fact, fairly much most of it is out there, as far as our reasoning goes. We have to agree to it and make it fit, and all too often we make doctrines and the like, to do so. whether they are correct or not.


So, my point is, even though it does not fit our reasoning, somehow, through it all, God has made a way for us to have what other wise we may well never have had, except in some distant reference to a once popular religion, in our history books.

So, while it is important to have a sound grasp on history and the facts that we can uncover, and while we should be aware that some ideas are not in the Bible as such, and while we need to be aware of any teaching that misleads and deceives, we do also need to be careful, as wise stewards, to not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Somehow, the LORD makes history complete, We don't - and all our protesting doesn't change His perfect [complete] plan.
It may well be, that if we never had the creed introducing the concept of 'the Trinity', we might also never have had or would never be Christians/Believers/Branches today. We can argue that until He returns, but in all honesty, we are better to concede that He knows what He is doing and because He does, we are.... and due to His plan, we will be, too, with the many who have gone before us.

LORD, have mercy.... i need it... i need YOU and help me to grasp that somehow, your Mercy is also You, as your Son is and Your Spirit, like a candle that has a flame and sheds light that others may see, Bless the LORD, O my soul, and all that is within me


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Greetings Brother,

May i make a point or two regarding some of what you share.
For the most part i am hearing you and i would like to say i agree with you BUT....

it is about 'completeness' ie, being complete [not our fellow Member complete @complete ]
Can a Father be complete without a Son? Not really ... or really, not at all.

In much the same way, some of what you share, which ought to be both more widely known, and also, more readily welcomed, as it is historical and relevant in that, is not complete, as such.

What we can do, is to take one portion of anything, and set it aside, and make a complete illusion to it in our minds, as well as expect others to accept it as a complete picture. I say this with great love and with no offence directed at you, so please understand i am writing to you as one i want to think is OK with such talk, as being for building up, not tearing [you] down.

Yes, the 5th Century saw some different stuff entering the scene. Let's go back there for a minute. We see a lot of rotten tomatoes and plenty of poison being dished up everywhere and lots who are power hungry etc etc. We also see in all this a lot of real heresy and deliberate false teaching and deceitful and wolf like characters. Add all that to a mix of prevalent thought and left overs from the Roman and Greek mythology, and you NEED a creed to draw the line somewhere. to differentiate between basically, right and wrong.
I do not think the idea was to make a doctrine that people 1500 years later would be arguing over as a deciding factor of Salvation or not, that is, if one is into the 'Trinity' or not. but, i do think you'll find that it was for the general good of the 'Church' and the 'Faith', that it was presented as it was. Was it par excellence? Not really, but i was not there with you making all the decisions. We are here now, in the comfort and affordability of history at our fingertips, so we can make proper judgements and cast our lot.

If i may continue, and this is what i wanted to say, so please major on this part if any...
I often am reminded of thinking about how we are able to read the Gospel... and now we also have it on oodles of translations etc with all the references etc, on screens and with the help of modern technology and computerized gadgets. We can read. point one. That is a big leap forward, even if it also has it's drawbacks - that is another subject, though! - and we have the Bible as well as more importantly, we have somehow got the Faith that was made available to men through the life of Christ.
[Where is he going with all this , he asks?? ]

When i have read parts of the horrific history of the Catholic and Protestant and other professing denominations, right through to today's creepy pseudo churches around the planet, i can feel both sickened and ashamed. I don't want to tell too many people i am a Christian, if that is what one looks like to them! However, where did our Bibles come from? How did we [ uman race] manage to get the Scriptures we have now? Was it only by and through those who stood opposed to the Catholic Church? And all other denominations? I don't think so..

Some 'stories' in the Bible don't really make all that much sense from our perspective. Look at Sampson and what his family were blessed with and how he went basically against the 'law' and got into affairs with Philistine women. And the LORD said it was OK because He had a plan to send 'salvation' to the Children of Israel.
Our way of thinking would definitely have scrapped that plan, before it got to print!
There are other 'strange' stories and accounts.
In fact, fairly much most of it is out there, as far as our reasoning goes. We have to agree to it and make it fit, and all too often we make doctrines and the like, to do so. whether they are correct or not.


So, my point is, even though it does not fit our reasoning, somehow, through it all, God has made a way for us to have what other wise we may well never have had, except in some distant reference to a once popular religion, in our history books.

So, while it is important to have a sound grasp on history and the facts that we can uncover, and while we should be aware that some ideas are not in the Bible as such, and while we need to be aware of any teaching that misleads and deceives, we do also need to be careful, as wise stewards, to not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Somehow, the LORD makes history complete, We don't - and all our protesting doesn't change His perfect [complete] plan.
It may well be, that if we never had the creed introducing the concept of 'the Trinity', we might also never have had or would never be Christians/Believers/Branches today. We can argue that until He returns, but in all honesty, we are better to concede that He knows what He is doing and because He does, we are.... and due to His plan, we will be, too, with the many who have gone before us.

LORD, have mercy.... i need it... i need YOU and help me to grasp that somehow, your Mercy is also You, as your Son is and Your Spirit, like a candle that has a flame and sheds light that others may see, Bless the LORD, O my soul, and all that is within me


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br Bear,

I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, you're basically saying, God's ways are higher than ours, or, we can't understand it. If that's what you're saying I have to disagree. If God said, I am one God in three persons, I'd believe it. But He doesn't. He actually says the opposite. He says 'God is one'.

Regarding the creed, I understand why they made creeds, my point is that the Athanasian Creed went in a new direction. Prior to that creed Christians believed that Jesus was God out of God and they called Him the only begotten. The Athanasian Creed differs from this markedly. It says that there are three co equal, co eternal, persons that are one God. If there are three co eternal persons then the Son was not begotten. If He is a co eternal person with the Father then He wasn't begotten of the Father.

What the creed is, is men trying to understand the Scriptures and putting it down in words. It seems in this creed the accepted and professed a logical contradiction. Not only is it illogical it doesn't align with Scripture. It would seem to me that they would have said, we don't know or sought a logical answer.

I'm going to end here in case I misunderstood where you're coming from.

 

[Rockerduck]

The Christian who is filled with the Holy Spirit can find scripture meaning easy, where a non Christian can't understand. The Holy Spirit illuminates the scripture meaning.

English Language Learners Definition of illuminate. : to supply (something) with light : to shine light on (something) : to make (something) clear and easier to understand.

The Trinity is easy to find in the New Testament.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Br Bear,

I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, you're basically saying, God's ways are higher than ours, or, we can't understand it. If that's what you're saying I have to disagree. If God said, I am one God in three persons, I'd believe it. But He doesn't. He actually says the opposite. He says 'God is one'.

Regarding the creed, I understand why they made creeds, my point is that the Athanasian Creed went in a new direction. Prior to that creed Christians believed that Jesus was God out of God and they called Him the only begotten. The Athanasian Creed differs from this markedly. It says that there are three co equal, co eternal, persons that are one God. If there are three co eternal persons then the Son was not begotten. If He is a co eternal person with the Father then He wasn't begotten of the Father.

What the creed is, is men trying to understand the Scriptures and putting it down in words. It seems in this creed the accepted and professed a logical contradiction. Not only is it illogical it doesn't align with Scripture. It would seem to me that they would have said, we don't know or sought a logical answer.

I'm going to end here in case I misunderstood where you're coming from.

Sounds like you want God to say things in Your terms. Not being satisfied with His ways.

God's ways Are higher than ours, or He wouldn't Be God. Or we would be on equal footing with Him -- which , obviously, we aren't.

Just because 'we' can't understand some of God's Word does not make it wrong. Or non-believable -- irrelevant.

There Is the verse that says "I and the Father are One'. John 10:30. Jesus Christ Was God incarnate.

The Word of God -- which Should be our Authority -- gives us the tri-unity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. NOT three separate Gods. But the three parts Of the trinity / Godhead all have different jobs that make our salvation possible. And all three parts brought this world into existence.

I was just reading some of a previous post of yours. You said that you're not a Christian. You Are intellectual / smart. But the Holy Spirit Won't be teaching you anything because you're not a born again believer and , thus, He's not indwelling you To teach you on a spiritual-level.

Hopefully -- at some point -- the Holy Spirit Will Show you / draw you to the inner understanding you need. In the meantime -- 'we' are sharing with you the best we can.

 

[Butch5]

Sounds like you want God to say things in Your terms. Not being satisfied with His ways.

God's ways Are higher than ours, or He wouldn't Be God. Or we would be on equal footing with Him -- which , obviously, we aren't.

Just because 'we' can't understand some of God's Word does not make it wrong. Or non-believable -- irrelevant.

There Is the verse that says "I and the Father are One'. John 10:30. Jesus Christ Was God incarnate.

The Word of God -- which Should be our Authority -- gives us the tri-unity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. NOT three separate Gods. But the three parts Of the trinity / Godhead all have different jobs that make our salvation possible. And all three parts brought this world into existence.

I was just reading some of a previous post of yours. You said that you're not a Christian. You Are intellectual / smart. But the Holy Spirit Won't be teaching you anything because you're not a born again believer and , thus, He's not indwelling you To teach you on a spiritual-level.

Hopefully -- at some point -- the Holy Spirit Will Show you / draw you to the inner understanding you need. In the meantime -- 'we' are sharing with you the best we can.

'I and that Father are one' speaks to unity. Remember, Jesus said, not My will, but thine be done.

I never said I wasn't a Christian. Why would I study the Scriputres if I wasn't a Christian?

I'll say it again, if God said He was a three in one God, I'd believe it. He doesn't. He says the opposite. Hear O Israel, the Lord is one. That's pretty clear. One, not three in one. Paul said to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. He didn't say to us there is one God, the Fatrher, Son, and Holy Spirit. The idea of a three in one God, is a product of the minds of men, not Scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

Look back at your post #45. You said that you're Not a Christian.

A lot of people study the Bible as Biblical Literature and not be born again believers. Sounds like that's what you do.

God doesn't Have to say that specifically -- He Does show it all through Scripture.

You're taking one verse in Scripture and by-passing everything else.

Then what about Matthew 28: 19-20 "Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." That is the trinity.

Looking back in this thread -- didn't someone list all the passages that contained evidence Of the trinity? It Might have been on another thread. Will look.

And, yes, there Is but one God. In the Old Testament various people groups had their own 'gods' that they worshipped. But they were Not the One True God.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- how ironic -- this thread is about the trinity and the very first post was listing Lots of verses. So Why are you trying to deny it?

You like to get into intellectual discussions About Bible and are fine as long as people agree with you. It needs to get into your Heart and not just your head. You like to discuss church history which is okay -- but there's a lot more important things than debating That.

 

[Butch5]

Look back at your post #45. You said that you're Not a Christian.

A lot of people study the Bible as Biblical Literature and not be born again believers. Sounds like that's what you do.

God doesn't Have to say that specifically -- He Does show it all through Scripture.

You're taking one verse in Scripture and by-passing everything else.

Then what about Matthew 28: 19-20 "Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." That is the trinity.

Looking back in this thread -- didn't someone list all the passages that contained evidence Of the trinity? It Might have been on another thread. Will look.

And, yes, there Is but one God. In the Old Testament various people groups had their own 'gods' that they worshipped. But they were Not the One True God.

I didn't. The person I was replying to said, among other things, that I wasn't a Christian. I agreed with his post except for the part where he said that I am not a Christian.

All it takes is one passage. Paul states, 'to us there is one God', and then he tells us who that one God is, the Father. That's absolutely crystal clear. If Paul is correct then anything other than what he said is incorrect. Since he was inspired, he was correct. In that same passage he makes a distinction between the one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. Thus he shows they are not the same.

There are passages in the Scriptures that speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, none say that they are all one God. Again, that idea comes from the minds of men. As we've seen from the creeds, this idea isn't found in the church until around 450 AD. The Nicene Creed of 325 AD. Says that Jesus came out of God. They believed He was begotten. The imagery of being begotten is that of a mother giving birth. In the process a mother brings forth another, separate, human being. The mother and the child are both human, but they are not the same being. This is the imagery we get from the Nicene Creed, from the Scriptures, and from Ignatius, a disciple of the apostle John.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- how ironic -- this thread is about the trinity and the very first post was listing Lots of verses. So Why are you trying to deny it?

You like to get into intellectual discussions About Bible and are fine as long as people agree with you. It needs to get into your Heart and not just your head. You like to discuss church history which is okay -- but there's a lot more important things than debating That.

This just distracts from the fact that there is nothing that speaks of a three in one God. Sure the thread starts with passages that people "beleive" are talking about a three in one God, Trinity, but none of those passages say that. People see a Teimity there because they already believe a three in one God, trinity, exists. It's the same as when people believe that man has a ghost that lives on after death and they read the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. They believe it's "proof" for what they believe, but it's really circular reasoning. It's not proof, they think it is because it fits with what they already believe.

If we have to reason to get to the idea of a Trinity, then it is the product of the mind. It's not stated anywhere in Scripture, thus it is by way of reasoning, thus it is a product of the mind.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Butch5,
The mind of a Holy Spirit filled Christian is different from the intellectual mind of a non-Christian. God gives the believer the gift of discernment, and increased depth of knowledge and understanding concerning scripture. By Grace we are saved by Faith. This Grace means unmerited favor to the believer, it is a gift of God and no man can earn it. Thus it is hard to understand the meaning of God inspired scripture. We are born out of sin; Jesus was born without sin, by the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit brought Christ into the world through a human vessel to be like us. Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the father. John 1 says Jesus is the word and the word was God. John 17:5 Jesus asks God to bring Him back to the Glory they shared before the world began. Joel 2:28 - Here God says He will pour His Holy Spirit on all flesh. Proverbs 1:23 - Come here and listen to me! I’ll pour out the spirit of wisdom upon you and make you wise. This the increased knowledge that is our gift.

Do you see or not see a pattern here? All Born Again Christians will see this as true.

 

[complete]

@Dave L. @Butch5, @Brother Paul, @DieAmartyr, @Andyindauk, @Christ4Ever, @Admon Mikha'el, @Br. Bear, @Rockerduck, @Sue D.

Hello there,

I have just read through the thread once more, and have enjoyed reading the exchanges between each one. Thank you Dave L for introducing the subject, and to you all for the thought provoking points raised along the way.

* There are two passages of Scripture which I would like to share, which my mind has been drawn to recently, and which has application to this subject, I believe. The first is John 14:26:-

'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in My name,
He shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.'

* The words, 'The Comforter', is followed by the word, 'which', because it is referring to the work that He would do, whereas the words, 'the Holy Ghost, is followed by the word, 'Whom', for it is referring to the being of the Holy Ghost, which the Father would send in Jesus name. Then the word, 'He' personifies Him, as did the word, 'Whom'. He is not just an extention of God the Father, He is also not just power from on high, as some say. He is the Holy Spirit who is sent from God the Father.

'Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.'
(1Co 12:4)

* The other passage of Scripture which came to mind was, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28:-

' For He (God the Father) hath put all things under His feet .(God the Son)
But when He saith all things are put under Him,
it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto Him,
then shall the Son also Himself be subject
unto Him that put all things under Him,
that God may be all in all.'

* The role of the Son is a means to an end in the purposes of God, as is the role of the Holy Spirit. The end being that 'God may be all in all'. Praise God!

* I feel that God is endeavouring to impart something to our minds: (the infinite to the finite) and is therefore condescending to use words and concepts which we can understand to explain what to the finite mind is inexplicable. Therefore rather than trying to rationalise these things, by using words such as TRINITY, why do we not stay within the confines of the words and concepts that God has used in His Word, and just accept what is written for our learning in simple faith?

* I hope this makes sense.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello Butch5,
The mind of a Holy Spirit filled Christian is different from the intellectual mind of a non-Christian. God gives the believer the gift of discernment, and increased depth of knowledge and understanding concerning scripture. By Grace we are saved by Faith. This Grace means unmerited favor to the believer, it is a gift of God and no man can earn it. Thus it is hard to understand the meaning of God inspired scripture. We are born out of sin; Jesus was born without sin, by the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit brought Christ into the world through a human vessel to be like us. Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the father. John 1 says Jesus is the word and the word was God. John 17:5 Jesus asks God to bring Him back to the Glory they shared before the world began. Joel 2:28 - Here God says He will pour His Holy Spirit on all flesh. Proverbs 1:23 - Come here and listen to me! I’ll pour out the spirit of wisdom upon you and make you wise. This the increased knowledge that is our gift.

Do you see or not see a pattern here? All Born Again Christians will see this as true.

'But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
( 1Corinthians 1:3-30-31)

Hello @Rockerduck

You appear to be suggesting that Butch5 is lacking in this regard. Yet he has made clear that He has a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so there is no doubt that He has the Holy Spirit too. He is not denying either the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, only the word TRINITY, which is not found in Scripture, but is man made and therefore can be dismissed without doing despite to the word of God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello there,

Forgive me for coming back yet again, but am I right in saying that the roles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all performed by The One Living Almighty God?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch5,
The mind of a Holy Spirit filled Christian is different from the intellectual mind of a non-Christian. God gives the believer the gift of discernment, and increased depth of knowledge and understanding concerning scripture. By Grace we are saved by Faith. This Grace means unmerited favor to the believer, it is a gift of God and no man can earn it. Thus it is hard to understand the meaning of God inspired scripture. We are born out of sin; Jesus was born without sin, by the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit brought Christ into the world through a human vessel to be like us. Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the father. John 1 says Jesus is the word and the word was God. John 17:5 Jesus asks God to bring Him back to the Glory they shared before the world began. Joel 2:28 - Here God says He will pour His Holy Spirit on all flesh. Proverbs 1:23 - Come here and listen to me! I’ll pour out the spirit of wisdom upon you and make you wise. This the increased knowledge that is our gift.

Do you see or not see a pattern here? All Born Again Christians will see this as true.

I don't doubt that God gives discernment. However, I think many Christians mistake their own beliefs for discernment. If it is as you say, why do so many millions of Christian's believe thing that the Bible flatly refutes? People have their beliefs and when confronted with Scripture that outright refutes those beliefs they still hold to those belief. I'll give you an example. Many claim that man has an immortal soul that lives on after death. Yet, the apostle Paul plainly states that the Father alone has immortality. It's a crystal clear statement that flatly refutes the idea of man having an immortal soul and inspite of this many continue to belief man has an immortal soul. You spoke of God giving discernment and understand, ok. However, God isn't going to contradict Himself or His word. When God say one thing and Christians say something completely opposite we have a dilemma and have to decide which we will believe. I will believe what the Scriptures state plainly over what men have inferred.