The "elect"

[Dave M]

Why do we make a distinction between Jew and Greek when Paul clearly tells us there is non all through out the NT

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.


Now we have Paul an apostle to the gentiles giving instructions on how to be a good solider of Christ. Now Paul is enduring all thing for everyone who is coming to Christ is the way I see it. He is giving instructions to everyone.

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
.11 The saying is trustworthy, for If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;if we deny him, he also will deny us
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself.

 

[Butch5]

Why do we make a distinction between Jew and Greek when Paul clearly tells us there is non all through out the NT

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.


Now we have Paul an apostle to the gentiles giving instructions on how to be a good solider of Christ. Now Paul is enduring all thing for everyone who is coming to Christ is the way I see it. He is giving instructions to everyone.

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
.11 The saying is trustworthy, for If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;if we deny him, he also will deny us
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself.

We do that because in Paul's day there were people who were called Jews and people who were called Gentiles. Paul does say both are the same in Christ. But in doing that he isn't saying that there were no people called the Jews and no people called the Gentiles.

The Gospel came to the Jews first. They had been under the Law. When Jews initially got saved they didn't abandon the Law. Even Paul observed the Law. However, he knew it had no bearing on salvation. Most Jews believed it did. That's why Paul had disputes with the Jews. Some were claiming that if the Gentiles were going to be saved they would need to keep the Law. Gentiles didnt believe they had to keep the Law. This cause problems between the Jews and the Gentiles and a big stink in Rome. At one point the Jews got thrown out of Rome. In Romans 3 and 4 we have Paul explaining to these Jewish believes that the Law isn't necessary for salvation. That's why he makes the case in these chapters that a man is saved through faith and not the Law.

If he's going to explain this to the people who think the Law is necessary, the Jews, he's going to have to address them, the Jews. There's no need to explain it to the Gentiles because they didn't believe they needed to keep the Law.

Believers are one in Christ, but they don't lose their ethnicity when they get saved

 

[Gregoryp]

If you are chosen by God, IE the elect, then you will know him and know it is so. The Holy Spirit will fill you and from that moment forward you are saved, simple as that. If you have to argue over this , then there is a very strong likelyhood your not part of the elect.

 

[complete]

complete said:
Hello Butch5,

I am interested, as I enter this thread for the first time today, to see what you have to say on this subject, for knowing that we agree on one subject at least, I am eager to know where we also agree in others.

I agree that predestination has nothing to do with salvation. However, I question what you say in this post quoted above. For after the great thesis of the epistle has been stated in Romans 1:17, Paul turns aside to establish the utter need of both Gentile (Romans 1:18-32) and Jew (Romans 2:1-29), and then the whole world in ( Romans 3:19), Romans 1:18 to 3:20 is one large section of this epistle devoted mainly to the establishment of the utter need of all men for the provision of grace in the gospel. It opens with the testimony of creation, and the things that may be known of God; it closes with the testimony of the law, and the knowledge of sin.

In Romans 2:17 he does not ' begin' an address to the Jew, for he has been contrasting Jew and Gentile throughout the verses leading up to it., similarly with 11:13.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I disagree when you say he's not addressing the Jews. He states outright, behold you are a Jew. The Gentiles weren't Jews. But if we continue to read on he confirms this with statements in the next several chapters. I'm not at my computer to post a bunch of passages. But for instance, I think it's Romans 4 where he speaks of Abraham and says, 'our father according to the flesh. Abraham was the fleshly father of the Jews not the Gentiles. He also makes mention, I think in chapter 7, of we who are under the Law. That was the Jews. The Gentiles weren't under the Law. There are others but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Hello Butch5,

Thank you for responding.

I do not deny that Paul addressed both Jew and Gentile directly at times during the epistle to the Romans, but I do question what you say in relation to when it began and ended. I am re-studying Romans at present, so I will consider what you have said further, and come back to you again (God willing).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

If you are chosen by God, IE the elect, then you will know him and know it is so. The Holy Spirit will fill you and from that moment forward you are saved, simple as that. If you have to argue over this , then there is a very strong likelihood your not part of the elect.

Only God knows who His 'elect' are, but the only way the individual person will know is when the Holy Spirit convicts him/ her of their need For salvation. But the Holy Spirit won't automatically come to indwell His 'elect'. Each person Still needs to personally accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and Then the Holy Spirit will come to indwell them. So -- if a person is concerned as to their being one of the elect, chances are that personal concern will indicate that they Are of the elect. But they Still need to personally accept Him. The person who doesn't care one way or the other, probably Isn't.

There was a poster here some time back who was very concerned about his Not being one of the elect. I was trying to assure him of what I just shared. When in Doubt, take time 'now' To accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. No need to be fretting over it.

 

[Gregoryp]

Only God knows who His 'elect' are, but the only way the individual person will know is when the Holy Spirit convicts him/ her of their need For salvation. But the Holy Spirit won't automatically come to indwell His 'elect'. Each person Still needs to personally accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and Then the Holy Spirit will come to indwell them. So -- if a person is concerned as to their being one of the elect, chances are that personal concern will indicate that they Are of the elect. But they Still need to personally accept Him. The person who doesn't care one way or the other, probably Isn't.

There was a poster here some time back who was very concerned about his Not being one of the elect. I was trying to assure him of what I just shared. When in Doubt, take time 'now' To accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. No need to be fretting over it.

when I was in primary school, the teacher asked us students what we desired to be when we grew up. The usual answers ensued, police officer, fireman, garbage truck driver (his father did that job). I had no idea so didnt answer. As I was walking home from school, the first word that popped into my head was priest. Then energy entered into me from the crown downwards, a little like warm water being poured over me. From them life was never the same. I was around 8/9 years old then.

 

[Sue D.]

@Greoryp -- so you're equating that with? feeling led to be a priest was the same as being saved?

 

[PloughBoy]

She don't get it! I do. and didn't have to think about it. Now i wonder why?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

So, are you speaking of Christians in general? Or of the Bride?

 

[Dave M]

One thing we should consider is that at the time of the letter to Romans the Jews had been kicked out of ROme Prior to that, so the majority of the Church was just gentiles with Jews just starting to be allowed back into Rome.

Something About the Book of Romans that will Help You Really "Get" It

Here’s something that many people I talk to about Paul’s Letter to the Romans don’t seem yet to have grasped. The earliest house churches in Rome would have been primarily Jewish and would have culturally felt Jewish, but in A.D. 49 the Roman Emperor Claudius kicked the Jews out...

www.biola.edu

"in A.D. 49 the Roman Emperor Claudius kicked the Jews out of Rome.[1] Jewish Christians, of course, would have been expelled along with the rest of the Jews.[2] During the five years between Claudius’s edict (A.D. 49) and his death (A.D. 54) when the edict lapsed and Jews started to return, the composition and self-understanding of the house churches in Rome would have shifted considerably. Paul’s letter to the Romans would have arrived in Rome somewhere around A.D. 57, during the period when Jews were still trickling back into Rome. If you can fix in your mind that the expulsion of Jews from Rome had a tremendous impact on the churches in that city, you will understand the message of Romans oh-so-much better!"

 

[Gregoryp]

@Greoryp -- so you're equating that with? feeling led to be a priest was the same as being saved?

yes

 

[Sue D.]

@Gegoryp -- what does Scripture say about how a person is saved.

 

[PloughBoy]

And Jesus Said:
"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Gregoryp]

@Gegoryp -- what does Scripture say about how a person is saved.

declaring that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for the sins of man is the next obvious step. I actually said that at a pentecostal church many years later. But I would assume God knew perfectly well that day would come.

 

[Gregoryp]

@Gegoryp -- what does Scripture say about how a person is saved.

Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate this may help

 

[Sue D.]

declaring that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for the sins of man is the next obvious step. I actually said that at a pentecostal church many years later. But I would assume God knew perfectly well that day would come.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel....by which also you are saved.... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He rose again the 3rd day according to the Scriptures."

Romans 10: 9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

So -- is that what you've done?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life."

 

[Sue D.]

Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate this may help

Only God knows who His elect are. We are told to go and share the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen.

Does it really matter how two theologians think on this subject. Sometimes people will listen to theologians debate various subjects so that they can 'eat prechewed food' instead of reading, meditating on God's Word themselves.

'We' figure that theologians have already done the research so it's okay to listen to them. Which Is true to some extent. Pastors Do study and share with their congregation what they've learned. Leading their people spiritually, and in the process equipping them to go reaching others with the Gospel as well. Encouraging their congregation to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

But I Will click into the link you've provided.

 

[Sue D.]

I just read the clip -- it's interesting. Not sure why you felt it would 'help'. People can debate Scripture all they want. But is that really getting out and sharing the Gospel with anyone?

The blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all who accept Him. No 'good works' are needed on our part.

 

[Dave M]

Well we know that tribulation is shorten for the sake of the elect. Notice he is using saved and elect in a very similar way to describe why the days are to be shorten. I understand this as meaning those saved are the elect.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.


Now we have to cover our basis because there is a theory that says only Jews are going through the tribulation and only Jews will be saved, and that can not be as we have scripture saying that all people groups are being saved out of the tribulation.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

we know for fact that these people from every people group on earth came out of the tribulation , and we know Jesus said he was going to cut short these days for the sake that people can be saved referring to the people saved as his elect.

This case is closed for me now. Thanks @B-A-C for another great study.

 

[complete]

* Election means to choose or select. God does this in regard to:-

- Israel - (Deuteronomy 7:6-7)
- Jerusalem - (Zechariah 1:17)
- Aaron - (Numbers 16:5-7)
- David - (2 Samuel 6:21)
- The Twelve - (John 6:70; Acts 1:2)
- Paul - (Acts 9:15)
and others.

* Paul wrote to the Thessalonians:-

'But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto He called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
(2 Thessalonians 2:13)

* Peter wrote to the Dispersion:-

'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.'
(1 Peter 1:1-2)

* Both these passages show the 'means' and 'the end in view'.
* In both the Old and New Testaments, and regarding members of the several different callings, the redeemed are called 'the elect':-

- 'Israel Mine elect' - (Isaiah 45:4)
- Those on the earth at the time of the second coming - (Matthew 24:31)
- Those who came under the first ministry of the Apostle Paul - (Romans 8:33)
- Those who came under the second (or prison ministry) of the Apostle Paul - (Colossians 3:12)
- Those called by the Apostles of the Circumcision - (1 Peter1:2; 2 John 1) - in contrast with the bulk of Israel at that time.
- Paul speaks of the remnant of Israel as 'the election' (Romans 1:5,7)

* This election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God the Father' as we can see in 1 Peter 1:2, (2 Peter 3:17). A parallel passage in some sense is that in which the Apostle Paul speaks not of election, but of predestination saying:- 'Whom He did foreknow, He also did pre-destinate ... ' (Romans 8::29). It is important to come to an understanding of 'foreknowledge' in regard to this subject of 'election' I feel.

* Occurrences of the word 'foreknowledge' ( or 'to know beforehand'):- Acts 2:23; Acts 26:4-5; Romans 8:29; Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:17.

- It is used of God in connection with Christ and His sacrifice for sin
- It is used of God in connection with His people who are called the elect, or the chosen.
- It is used of man in the sense of knowing beforehand, or of having previous information.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris