The "elect"

[complete]

Hello @Butch5,

Re. 'personal pronouns': I found this link which you may find interesting:- The manner of address is conversational in style, and a little bit strange, but at least the subject is being considered.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Can you please show me how I've applied these rules of grammar incorrectly?

Hello Butch5,

It is important that you look at the address on the Envelope to identify to whom the personal pronouns apply, and in this case Paul, the writer, is identifying himself with the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus, and therefore uses the word, 'we,' 'our' and 'us' in that relation in the opening chapter. You give quite a different interpretation on these words, one which I do not acknowledge to be true.

In Ephesians chapter one we are shown the blessings which are ours in Christ Jesus, our risen Saviour, Lord and Head. The name 'Beloved' is spoken by God in relation to His Beloved Son, in Whom these blessings become ours, for we are placed 'in Him' by God the Father (1 Corinthians 1:30).

The word translated 'Highly Favoured' is only used once more in Scripture, and that is to Mary, the Lord's Mother, whom the angel Gabriel referred to as being 'highly favoured' or ('much graced'). We, Gentiles, who were far of from God, have been brought nigh to God, in Christ Jesus, which is evidential of God's wondrous grace, as His choice of Mary to bear and deliver into the world God's only Begotten Son was for Mary.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave M]

If the new Convenient was only for Juda, how is Gentiles included, is not part of Israel

 

[Sue D.]

@Dave M. --- Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah -- which are Jews. John 3:16 -- New Testament -- "for God so loved the world, that He gave." 'world' includes Everyone -- not a section of people.

When I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior -- I was still a Gentile -- Swedish/ German -- did not become part of Children of Israel as a result.

All born again believers become part of the Universal body of believers / the Bride of Christ. And Then there are all the local groups of believers / the Local church.

 

[Gregoryp]

Why is there animosity towards the chosen few? 9 straight pages of debate over nothing, as some of us here have shared our testimony and told you what we experienced from a young age. We were chosen by God , simple as that. All he had to do was wait for us to confirm that. I experienced it. Now how about a 9 page discussion about the lost sheep in Hillsong, Catholic churches etc?

 

[KingJ]

Why is there animosity towards the chosen few? 9 straight pages of debate over nothing, as some of us here have shared our testimony and told you what we experienced from a young age. We were chosen by God , simple as that. All he had to do was wait for us to confirm that. I experienced it. Now how about a 9 page discussion about the lost sheep in Hillsong, Catholic churches etc?

Chosen

God is impartial Acts 10:34
God is good Psalm 136:1
God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17
God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5

So now, some who cannot read scripture in context cherry pick some verses ''God is omniscient, God hardened Pharoah's heart''....and bang, agents for the devil. All due to a failure at reading.

You undo ''all'' God has gone through to make true free will a reality....with utter reading incompetence. ''Add'' God is righteous in all His ways to ''God is omniscient'' and you will arrive at the truth on the matter of pre-destination and being chosen. God limits His omniscience to uphold being good and impartial. Just as He limits His omnipotence to allow evil, something He utterly hates to take place, as free will is good.

 

[Gregoryp]

All of this arguing is nothing new btw, read scripture and you can see this has been happening since time began. Arguing for days if not months over almost nothing, while in the meantime the enemy is out having people worshipping false idols.

 

[Sue D.]

Chosen

God is impartial Acts 10:34
God is good Psalm 136:1
God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17
God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5

So now, some who cannot read scripture in context cherry pick some verses ''God is omniscient, God hardened Pharoah's heart''....and bang, agents for the devil. All due to a failure at reading.

You undo ''all'' God has gone through to make true free will a reality....with utter reading incompetence. ''Add'' God is righteous in all His ways to ''God is omniscient'' and you will arrive at the truth on the matter of pre-destination and being chosen. God limits His omniscience to uphold being good and impartial. Just as He limits His omnipotence to allow evil, something He utterly hates to take place, as free will is good.

Well -- God IS omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent. All of these 'omni's' = having all knowledge / is present everywhere / all powerful.

Now -- why don't you tell us how you Really feel. 'Some who cannot read Scripture in context' // utter reading incompetence.

Trust you'll have a better day tomorrow.

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch5,

It is important that you look at the address on the Envelope to identify to whom the personal pronouns apply, and in this case Paul, the writer, is identifying himself with the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus, and therefore uses the word, 'we,' 'our' and 'us' in that relation in the opening chapter. You give quite a different interpretation on these words, one which I do not acknowledge to be true.

In Ephesians chapter one we are shown the blessings which are ours in Christ Jesus, our risen Saviour, Lord and Head. The name 'Beloved' is spoken by God in relation to His Beloved Son, in Whom these blessings become ours, for we are placed 'in Him' by God the Father (1 Corinthians 1:30).

The word translated 'Highly Favoured' is only used once more in Scripture, and that is to Mary, the Lord's Mother, whom the angel Gabriel referred to as being 'highly favoured' or ('much graced'). We, Gentiles, who were far of from God, have been brought nigh to God, in Christ Jesus, which is evidential of God's wondrous grace, as His choice of Mary to bear and deliver into the world God's only Begotten Son was for Mary.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

As I've already shown, Paul tells us who the groups are. He tells us in chapter two that the "You" group is the Gentiles.

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- (Eph. 2:11 NKJ)

That's not an opinion or an interpretation. He states it plainly. He also tell us who the "we" group is.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:12 KJV)

The we group is those who first trusted, or more accurately, before hoped, in the Christ. There's only one group that had previously hoped in the Christ and that was the Jews or Israel. However, Paul contrasts this "we" group with the "you" group. He says,

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Eph. 1:13 KJV)

So, we have one group who, before hoped in the Christ, and another group who also trusted "After" they heard the word of truth. So, again, we have two groups, the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul includes himself in the first group, the Jews, the group that God had already done those things listed in verse 3-11.

Also, "the Beloved" is a term used of Israel in the OT.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Vutch5,

Yes Paul was giving knowledge of the revelation of God regarding the church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth al in all, to believers among the assemblies.

Gentiles were being grafted into Israel's Olive Tree until the hope of Israel was placed in abeyance at their continued rejection of the word of God concerning their Messiah. This is what the quotation made by Paul to the leaders of the Jews in Acts 28: 25+ signified. For this quotation was only used at a time of rejection, twice by our Lord, in the land, and once by Paul in the diaspora. It led to our Lord no longer using direct speech to the multitude, but speaking in parables concerning the mysteries of the Kingdom, revealing their truths only to His disciples, and in the case of Paul, the Jews departed and He was given the knowledge of The Mystery which would make both Jew and Gentile One Body in Christ, to which were given a unique hope, quite different from that which they held as gentiles grafted into Israel's Olive tree, and blessing, which were all spiritual.etc., all made known in the epistles written by Paul following that revelation.

The members of the Body of Christ, are so identified with Him in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension, that in God's estimation they are there at His right hand in Christ Jesus now, in spirit. So that the Hope of the church which is the body of Christ is to appear with Christ, at his appearing in glory (Colossians 3:4), and to enter into their spiritual blessing awaiting them in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (I know that you have another interpretation to give of what 'heavenly places' are, but I will remain with what is written there in Ephesians 1)

You say that there appears to be two gospels here: no, there is only a revelation from God which reveals His will for the church which is His Body, of which His Son is the Head.

Thank you, @Butch5, forgive me if my responses are maybe a little rushed and do not address your points as you would like, but I have been typing for hours, literally, and I am now very tired.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

If you look at your KJV, you'll see that the word "places" is in italics. The reason for that is because the word isn't in the text, it's added by the translators. In the Greek text, the word heavenly is an adjective and it is in the plural number. It laterally is in the heavenlies. An adjective needs modifies a noun, however, Paul didn't give the noun. He simply said, in the heavenlies. So, "heavenly places" isn't written in Ephesians 1.

You said the hope of the Church is to appear with Him when He appears. Firstly, I don't believe that case can be made from Scripture. That statement implies two things, one that they are alive and two that they are in Heaven. We know that no one is in Heaven because Scripture tells us that. Jesus told that Jews and His disciples that where He was going they could not go. We also know from Scripture that when a person dies, they are dead until the Resurrection. So, there is no way they could be in Heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @BUTCH 5,

In your last sentence you asked if I can point to an example in Scripture of Paul preaching 'the unsearchable riches of Christ'. My answer to that would be that as He was arrested and either in prison, or under house arrest then there can be no record of him physically preaching. However the content of the epistles of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians contain these 'unsearchable riches', and that of 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, which were also written during his confinement.

The word, Gospel, means 'good news', and so yes this was further good news from God.

The words, 'The Kingdom of God' is an all covering title encompassing all the callings of the redeemed in Christ Jesus, whether they be, 'far above all', or in the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven to the New Earth, or within the earthly realms of God's choosing.

Don't let the subject of the Olive Tree be a stumbling block, for it is a figure only, used by Paul in Romans 11 for explanatory purposes.

The content of the later prison epistles contain all that is needful for the continued fellowship of believers in Christ Jesus, following the destruction and scattering of Israel.
In 2 Timothy 1:15, Paul tells Timothy that all that were in Asia had turned away from him, so it would seem that they had rejected this further revelation of God that he had made known. Timothy was urged by Paul to study to show himself approved unto God 'a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth' (2 Timothy 2:15). For all around him, in Ephesus, was the strife of tongues, as believers argued and debated among themselves to their own detriment. Things have not changed have they?

Only God can reveal to you the truth of what I have said, I can do no more than I have done. Forgive me for the inadequacy of my ability to convey this truth in a manner that would help you to see and understand what I am saying. I will continue to seek to apply the words of Paul in 2 Timothy 2:15 in my own life, that I too may have no reason to be ashamed .

May God be glorified.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

HI Chris,

This seems to me to be an answer to avoid answering my question. Don't worry, I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. I don't agree with Dispensationalism. I don't believe a case can be made for it in Scripture. This conversation began when you challenged my statement that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. You claimed that Paul had further revelation that was only given to Paul. When I asked what it was you said it was the "unsearchable rich of Christ". I asked for an example of Paul preaching this. You said there can be no example of him actually preaching it. However, he did have visitors when under house arrest, so there was opportunity to preach it. But, you gave a list of 7epistles in which you claim this further revelation is contained. How is it then that you can't provide an example? Aren't there seven epistles from which to take an example?

I just find what you said to be disjointed. How is it that Paul got this further revelation but it doesn't go into effect until Israel is scattered as a nation. That was in AD 70. Paul was already gone at that point. If it didn't go into effect until after they were scattered, then the Gentiles who believed prior to that were still being grafted into the Olive Tree. So, if Gentiles are still being grafted into the Olive Tree during Paul's lifetime why is he preaching something that would indicate that they weren't, but that it wouldn't begun until after AD 70. That doesn't seem to makes sense to me.

You also said that this further revelation about the church wasn't made know to the apostles and the prophets of the Old Testament. Yet Paul said,

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(Eph. 2:19-20 KJV)

Here Paul is saying that they the Gentiles, are built on the prophets and apostles.

I don't believe you've disproved my original statement that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. I don't know of anyone who would argue that the Gentiles aren't saved under the New Covenant. I think pretty much all Christians would agree that it is the New Covenant by which the Gentiles are saved. The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It wasn't made with the Gentiles. Therefore, if one is going to be saved under the New Covenant, they must be part of the house of Israel or the house of Judah.

Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that says God made a covenant with the Gentiles?

I see where you're coming from and disagree. I don't think my original statement has been refuted. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Butch5]

He died for the Elect - the Bride is whom He loves. He doesn't love the others, and they will be destroyed.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

In context, who were the vessels fitted for destruction and why were they fitted for destruction?

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Re. 'personal pronouns': I found this link which you may find interesting:- The manner of address is conversational in style, and a little bit strange, but at least the subject is being considered.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

The link isn't working.

 

[KingJ]

All of this arguing is nothing new btw, read scripture and you can see this has been happening since time began. Arguing for days if not months over almost nothing, while in the meantime the enemy is out having people worshipping false idols.

Calvinism ranks among the top three laziest and shocking interpretations of scripture.

'''see this has been happening since time began'' The devil deceiving man has happened since time began.

''Arguing for days if not months over almost nothing'' A brother proposing God is wicked, it is not nothing. Everyone of us ought to be ''TERRIFIED'' of miss-representing God to the lost. He loves them all and died for them all.

'''while in the meantime the enemy is out having people worshipping false idols'' Having a brother teach a message that God is wicked is worse then the enemy getting people to worship false gods.

 

[KingJ]

Well -- God IS omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent. All of these 'omni's' = having all knowledge / is present everywhere / all powerful.

Now -- why don't you tell us how you Really feel. 'Some who cannot read Scripture in context' // utter reading incompetence.

Trust you'll have a better day tomorrow.

Sue, last time we discussed this who stood on both sides of the fence. Have you made up your mind on this matter?

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

As I've already shown, Paul tells us who the groups are. He tells us in chapter two that the "You" group is the Gentiles.

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- (Eph. 2:11 NKJ)

That's not an opinion or an interpretation. He states it plainly. He also tell us who the "we" group is.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:12 KJV)

The we group is those who first trusted, or more accurately, before hoped, in the Christ. There's only one group that had previously hoped in the Christ and that was the Jews or Israel. However, Paul contrasts this "we" group with the "you" group. He says,

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Eph. 1:13 KJV)

So, we have one group who, before hoped in the Christ, and another group who also trusted "After" they heard the word of truth. So, again, we have two groups, the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul includes himself in the first group, the Jews, the group that God had already done those things listed in verse 3-11.

Also, "the Beloved" is a term used of Israel in the OT.

Hello @Butch5,

What you have already shown is your understanding of the use of the personal pronouns in chapter one of Ephesians, but that is justifiably open to dispute, especially as it flies in the face of the exposition of every other expositor I have heard on this chapter. If Paul refers to his hearers ethnicity at all at any time, specifically, as in verses 12 & 13, it is for a purpose, and is an aside; it does not influence the fact that the 'whole' is related to the company being addressed in his salutation in verse 1. To confine the we 'group' as you call it, of verses 1-11 to the Jews who first trusted is not correct, for the blessings itemized there are for all the company to whom the letter is addressed.

By interpreting the words 'the Beloved' which refers to our risen and glorified Lord, in relation to Israel, ;you are depriving yourself of the wondrous knowledge of oneness with Him.

There is no more that I can say to you on this, for we are obviously very different in our understanding. May God, in His mercy and grace, give enlightenment to each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

If you look at your KJV, you'll see that the word "places" is in italics. The reason for that is because the word isn't in the text, it's added by the translators. In the Greek text, the word heavenly is an adjective and it is in the plural number. It laterally is in the heavenlies. An adjective needs modifies a noun, however, Paul didn't give the noun. He simply said, in the heavenlies. So, "heavenly places" isn't written in Ephesians 1.

You said the hope of the Church is to appear with Him when He appears. Firstly, I don't believe that case can be made from Scripture. That statement implies two things, one that they are alive and two that they are in Heaven. We know that no one is in Heaven because Scripture tells us that. Jesus told that Jews and His disciples that where He was going they could not go. We also know from Scripture that when a person dies, they are dead until the Resurrection. So, there is no way they could be in Heaven.

Hello Butch5,

The Greek interlinear provides the english word, 'heavenlies', in translating the Greek word translated 'heavenly places', with the word (places) in brackets. I quite understand that the word 'places' in the KJV is added by the translators, but that does not take from the obvious fact that a location is intended.

The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is so identified with Christ, by God's reckoning, that they have died with Him, were buried, quickened and raised with Him, and are now seated with Him, far above all heavens, at God's own right hand. (in spirit) awaiting that day when Christ 'appears' in glory; when they will also appear with Him there, not only 'in spirit' but clothed upon by life, having been raised from the dead.

I agree that no one in is Heaven now, for all await the resurrection from the dead.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

HI Chris,

This seems to me to be an answer to avoid answering my question. Don't worry, I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. I don't agree with Dispensationalism. I don't believe a case can be made for it in Scripture. This conversation began when you challenged my statement that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. You claimed that Paul had further revelation that was only given to Paul. When I asked what it was you said it was the "unsearchable rich of Christ". I asked for an example of Paul preaching this. You said there can be no example of him actually preaching it. However, he did have visitors when under house arrest, so there was opportunity to preach it. But, you gave a list of 7epistles in which you claim this further revelation is contained. How is it then that you can't provide an example? Aren't there seven epistles from which to take an example?

I just find what you said to be disjointed. How is it that Paul got this further revelation but it doesn't go into effect until Israel is scattered as a nation. That was in AD 70. Paul was already gone at that point. If it didn't go into effect until after they were scattered, then the Gentiles who believed prior to that were still being grafted into the Olive Tree. So, if Gentiles are still being grafted into the Olive Tree during Paul's lifetime why is he preaching something that would indicate that they weren't, but that it wouldn't begun until after AD 70. That doesn't seem to makes sense to me.

You also said that this further revelation about the church wasn't made know to the apostles and the prophets of the Old Testament. Yet Paul said,

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(Eph. 2:19-20 KJV)

Here Paul is saying that they the Gentiles, are built on the prophets and apostles.

I don't believe you've disproved my original statement that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. I don't know of anyone who would argue that the Gentiles aren't saved under the New Covenant. I think pretty much all Christians would agree that it is the New Covenant by which the Gentiles are saved. The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It wasn't made with the Gentiles. Therefore, if one is going to be saved under the New Covenant, they must be part of the house of Israel or the house of Judah.

Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that says God made a covenant with the Gentiles?

I see where you're coming from and disagree. I don't think my original statement has been refuted. Thanks for the discussion.

Hello Butch5,

No avoidance is intended, I simply replied in reverse order, from the last sentence upward.

My manner of delivery,, which you have criticised, is of no matter. What matters is the content, which could quite well have been 'disjointed' as you say, for by the time I typed that my mind was tired. The fact that you do not agree with me is of no concern, you stand before God, in Christ, as I do; and we answer to Him, and not to each other.

The members of the Church which is His Body, are not under the new covenant, for that is now in abeyance, and awaits the redemption of Israel to come into force, for as the old covenant was made with Israel, so will the new covenant. They are one in Christ, and one Body in Him, and are brought nigh unto God in Him, Israel as a nation has no part in that.

I thank you too, for your continued responses, but to continue in the light of this polarization of understanding would be futile.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

If the new Convenient was only for Juda, how is Gentiles included, is not part of Israel

'And if some of the branches be broken off,
and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them,
and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(Rom 11:17)

Hello @Dave M,

You have not addressed this post to anyone directly, so I hope you will not mind my responding to it.

During the Acts period Gentiles were included in the new covenant blessings which were being evidenced among the redeemed in that day, they 'partook' of the root and fatness of the olive tree of Israel, and the covenant (millennial) blessings were enjoyed by them, as a foretaste of what was to come. When Israel failed to come to repentance, and remained in unbelief, the new covenant with it's (millennial) blessings ceased, and is now in abeyance, awaiting the coming day when Israel will be brought to repentance.

* 'Israel' referring to all the tribes of Israel, north and south (Judah and Israel), as they will be when the new covenant is made with them.

'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be My People.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother,
saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.'
(Jeremiah 31:31-34)

'And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions:
but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them:
so shall they be My People, and I will be their God.
And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever:
and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:
and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My People.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.'
(Eze 37:21 - 28)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[complete]

@Dave M. --- Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah -- which are Jews. John 3:16 -- New Testament -- "for God so loved the world, that He gave." 'world' includes Everyone -- not a section of people.

When I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior -- I was still a Gentile -- Swedish/ German -- did not become part of Children of Israel as a result.

All born again believers become part of the Universal body of believers / the Bride of Christ. And Then there are all the local groups of believers / the Local church.

Hello @Sue D,

I so wanted to click the 'like' button in regard to this post, because I agree with what you say, however, I could not because of your reference to 'The Bride'. For as a member of the church which is Christ's Body, which is referred to as 'a perfect man' (Ephesians 4:13), I am not a member of that company.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris