God's Truth to Give Gospel Presentation

[GodB4Us]

What is a "reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ" if not discipleship?

( I think the answer is - "dead." )
.

One cannot confuse the same thing with itself. This strange doctrine of trying to sever "salvation" from "discipleship" is a capricious distinction that first, doesn't exist, and second shall lead many into a deadly sense of false salvation without αξια της μετανοιας εργα πρασσοντας

Rhema

Since discipleship is ongoing, how long will it be before you get the Holy Ghost and be saved then?

Cart before the horse is not running that race at all and also for why the horse cannot be the cart. Salvation first before discipleship then the horse empowered by Christ in that believer, can pull the cart of discipleship as His yoke is easy & His burden is light because Jesus is the One finishing His work in us to His glory.

 

[GodB4Us]

There is a rather bizarre dichotomy in American English whereby "knowing" / "believing" something can be severed from the ability to do a thing.

Americans will stipulate that a person can "know" medicine without being able to practice (or do) doctoring. They recognize a difference between a kind of academic or "head" knowledge and practical experience. This is not true in French, nor is it true in Koine Greek. In these two languages, if one cannot do a thing, then one literally cannot state that one knows or believes a thing. The concept of "knowing about" cannot be severed from the "ability to do" - as a matter of language.

In Koine Greek, there is no difference between "believing" a thing, and "doing" a thing. Were one even able to explain such a difference to Hellenistic Jew 2,000 years ago (as I said, it is linguistically impossible) it would surely be viewed as absurd.

Now it's almost impossible to explain to an American that one cannot sever believing from doing - that they are one in the same thing - since words exist to express such a concept. But to many people around the globe, Americans are insane. This may be one reason why.

Rhema

I doubt Americans are the only ones having this problem you are perceiving.

How are we drawn to Jesus Christ to reveal His Son to us to give us to the Son so we can believe in Him to be saved? The Father. That means our believing in Jesus Christ is the work of the Father. Note the will of the Father below.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

See a professing believer living in sin? Then disciple them because they would never have believed in Jesus Christ in the first place unless the Father had drawn them unto the Son to be saved. Discipleship follows salvation.

 

[GodB4Us]

(Acts 2:42 KJV) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.​

Whether written or oral, did they not continue steadfastly in the Apostles' Doctrine? And is that something different than what you would call the Bible?

But in truth, just what is so hard to figure out?

They got saved first, water baptized in His name, and then they were being discipled.

Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Matthew 5:43-44 KJV) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;​

GB4U, that's not hard to figure out. It might be hard to do (using human willpower)... but not "figure out."

Where in any gospel, presentation is a sinner called to go first and love your enemies before you are saved? How can any one love their enemies when it is not in our flesh to do it but an eye for an eye? So they have to be saved first to have His love in the for others so they can love their enemies in the hopes that one day, they will believe in Him & be saved too.

And neither is this:

(Matthew 6:9-15 KJV) PRAY !! Our Father which art in heaven, ... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.... Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

Sinners cannot pray to God as their Father unless they were saved first in having that seal of adoption so they can call God Father in prayer.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..... 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

That's not hard to figure out either. But does one have faith in that? Or does one have faith that a sacrifice must be given to God (as taught by Moses) to pay for sin?

(Acts 13:38-39 KJV) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

"Through this man... not Moses..." (and remember, to believe means to do... it's one in the same concept).

Ain't hard to figure out at all.

Rhema

How does one receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost at our salvation born again of the Spirit moment?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The cause and effect of salvation on the Gentiles can be clearly seen here in Acts.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

 

[GodB4Us]

The Textus Receptus actually says "the just shall live by THE faith."

As specifying the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as well as for living as His after salvation.

Most of the time when Paul says "the flesh" he means Judaism, as in the flesh of the foreskin. You say that one's faith should be in "believing" unto salvation, but the Jew has his faith in Circumcision for his salvation.

So yes, Judaism is weak. I recall the phrase "beggarly elements," a reliance upon the circumcision of the flesh, rather than the circumcision of the heart.

That aside, does not negate how one has the power to become the sons of God by even believing in His name thus and hence , believing in Him is how one is born again of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now I can accept not of blood as if by being a Jew by bloodline, and not of the flesh, as being a Jew by Judaism, but the will of man refers to any religious effort of man in getting himself born of God.

Again, not what Paul meant by "flesh," although I can appreciate the extrapolation since Judaism does indeed depend upon human willpower. But are you sure you're not confusing "discipleship" with salvation?

Now when our believing in Him is a work of the Father.

Yet isn't that calling upon the name of the Lord? And who is doing that if not you? And if you (finally) are doing that, is it not obedience to that which you were commanded to do?

since our believing in Him is a work of the Father is how any one would call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

One might just as well say "So that is Jesus Christ working in or lives as the Good Shepherd He is and not just as our Saviour for obeying Him to be saved."

One does not "let go and let God." Rather, one lets God help to grab hold.

Rhema

If one has to surrender to the truth that they cannot save themselves for why they need Jesus Christ as God their Saviour, then one should also recognize that we cannot follow Him unless we surrender to Jesus Christ as God our Good Shepherd. Both requires believing in Him to do this. Trust is the basis for all relationships. Either we recognize that mankind had their chance under the Old Covenant to obtain salvation by and make themselves good in following God, and failed, or we continue to look to ourselves rather than place all our hopes, confidence and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to fulfill the New Covenant to us of what He said He will do and all He asks from us is to believe Him.

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes.

But I could also say that you seem to be presenting a nice shiny free gift to a beggar or street person without there being any need (or want) for that person to get cleaned up, as if all that was necessary was for them to stand still and POOF, magically the person becomes clean. If I hand the beggar new clean robes, wouldn't he have to change himself? Or do angels suddenly appear?

I'm not trying to be combative, but from my perspective, you've whitewashed all need for and reference to obedience. Yet as I read your post, it wasn't until you started to OBEY the command of Jesus to rely upon him, that things started to improve.

There is indeed a great difference between obeying Christ and obeying the Law - else Jesus would not have said this:

(Matthew 11:28-30 KJV) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

He did not say that there is no yoke, nor burden.

Rhema

The reason His yoke is easy & His burden is light by learning of Him to find rest for our souls is because He will clean you up and all He asks from us is to believe Him..

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

If the yoke you have is not easy nor the burden light, then do consider asking Jesus to do it whatever it is that you find hard or heavy to do. Trust Him to do it. Believe that He can and He will. Then you will have more praise & thanksgiving to God for in Jesus's name when you see yourself following Him a whole lot better than you were before.

 

[GodB4Us]

You have no idea what that means.

The just shall live by faith.

The old law had the purification works of the law for the people to do to be just (justified) before God.

The people in the old law had to work at cleaning/purifying/justifying themselves.

They lived by those works.

The works of the law are these:


The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

The people had to live every day by keeping to those cleanliness works.

However, now through our faith in Jesus' blood cleaning/purifying/justifying us...that is how we live---that we are clean and purified by his blood.

It doesn't mean we don't have to obey God anymore, or to obey God now only means have faith/believe in Him, it MEANS WE DON'T have to get circumcised in the flesh and sacrifice animals and observe specials days and adhere to a special diet anymore.

We still have to obey God and repent of our sins, we just don't have to do the works of the law to clean our own flesh. Jesus cleans us now, inside and out, just by our faith that his blood does this.

You are still confusing disciples with obtaining salvation.

 

[God's Truth]

You are still confusing disciples with obtaining salvation.

You can't be saved to be a disciple if you have faith alone. That is the Word of God.

 

[God's Truth]

@GodB4Us

You think Paul was saved on the road to Damascus when he believed?

 

[God's Truth]

The reason His yoke is easy & His burden is light by learning of Him to find rest for our souls is because He will clean you up and all He asks from us is to believe Him..

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

If the yoke you have is not easy nor the burden light, then do consider asking Jesus to do it whatever it is that you find hard or heavy to do. Trust Him to do it. Believe that He can and He will. Then you will have more praise & thanksgiving to God for in Jesus's name when you see yourself following Him a whole lot better than you were before.

Only those who obey Jesus can ask anything in his name.

 

[God's Truth]

As specifying the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as well as for living as His after salvation.

That aside, does not negate how one has the power to become the sons of God by even believing in His name thus and hence , believing in Him is how one is born again of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now I can accept not of blood as if by being a Jew by bloodline, and not of the flesh, as being a Jew by Judaism, but the will of man refers to any religious effort of man in getting himself born of God.

Now when our believing in Him is a work of the Father.

since our believing in Him is a work of the Father is how any one would call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

If one has to surrender to the truth that they cannot save themselves for why they need Jesus Christ as God their Saviour, then one should also recognize that we cannot follow Him unless we surrender to Jesus Christ as God our Good Shepherd. Both requires believing in Him to do this. Trust is the basis for all relationships. Either we recognize that mankind had their chance under the Old Covenant to obtain salvation by and make themselves good in following God, and failed, or we continue to look to ourselves rather than place all our hopes, confidence and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to fulfill the New Covenant to us of what He said He will do and all He asks from us is to believe Him.

Luke 3:7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

John knew they believed.

He also knew they weren't really going to repent of their sins.

So they weren't going to be saved.

8 Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

 

[God's Truth]

They got saved first, water baptized in His name, and then they were being discipled.

Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Where in any gospel, presentation is a sinner called to go first and love your enemies before you are saved? How can any one love their enemies when it is not in our flesh to do it but an eye for an eye? So they have to be saved first to have His love in the for others so they can love their enemies in the hopes that one day, they will believe in Him & be saved too.

Sinners cannot pray to God as their Father unless they were saved first in having that seal of adoption so they can call God Father in prayer.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..... 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


How does one receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost at our salvation born again of the Spirit moment?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The cause and effect of salvation on the Gentiles can be clearly seen here in Acts.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

No one can be born again until they obey and repent of their sins.

Being born again means you have to die first.

A person dies by repenting of their sins and crucifying themselves to sin with Christ on the cross.

Belief alone is dead and does nothing.

 

[God's Truth]

Since discipleship is ongoing, how long will it be before you get the Holy Ghost and be saved then?

Cart before the horse is not running that race at all and also for why the horse cannot be the cart. Salvation first before discipleship then the horse empowered by Christ in that believer, can pull the cart of discipleship as His yoke is easy & His burden is light because Jesus is the One finishing His work in us to His glory.

Can't be born again and saved to a new life in the Lord if you don't crucify yourself and die to the sins of the world with Jesus on that cross.

 

[God's Truth]

@GodB4Us

Jesus has to accept the person before he saves the person.


Jesus saves those he accepts, see Acts 15:8.

Jesus accepts those who fear God and do what is right, see Acts 10:35.

Those who get his teachings and obeys them, see John 14:23.

Jesus saves those who are on the side of truth see John 18:37.

Jesus saves those who do right and come to the light, see John 3:21.

Jesus saves those who obey, see Acts 5:32.

Jesus saves those who do what he says to do, see Luke 8:21.

Jesus saves those who love him, and those who love him are those who obey, see John 14:21.

Jesus saves those who seek him with all their heart and soul, Jeremiah 29:13, and Matthew 7:7; who love Him with all their heart and soul and mind, Matthew 22:37.

Those people who obey God are those who seek Him with their all their heart and soul. See Deuteronomy 6:5, 10:12, 11:13,26:16, 30:2, 30:10; Joshua 22:5; 1 Kings 8:48; NASB Psalm 119:2; Psalm 34:4.

Those who change and become like little children, see Matthew 18:3.

 

[God's Truth]

@GodB4Us

God chooses those who chose to obey, those who submit themselves to Him, those who submit to obeying everything that comes out of His mouth.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

2 John 1:13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.

Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

[Rhema]

Thye problem here is.. does Jesus believe sinners are capable to repent from all sins when sin has dominion over their lives? No.

So then Jesus preached a lie, or an incomplete gospel (same thing). As I understand your statement above, you believe that Jesus preached a Gospel message that commanded a "specific performance" that He knew to be unattainable (i.e. "Repent").

You have created a cruel Jesus.

The true answer would be YES, not no, since that's exactly what Jesus taught - that sinners should repent and ask for forgiveness, believing the Gospel that HE taught. Instead, you would have us believe that Jesus purposefully misled both the people and the disciples by telling them to do something he knew they couldn't. How cruel. How misleading. How horrible to tell a lie by presenting an incomplete truth. Would you tell your children in all honesty and truth to do something you knew they could not?

(Matthew 4:23 KJV) And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.​

​

(Matthew 5:1-2 KJV) And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,​

(Mark 1:14-15 KJV) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.​

​

(Luke 13:3-5 KJV) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.​

​

(Matthew 4:17 KJV) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

Where did JESUS ever say "but"? Where did JESUS ever say, "REPENT !! But I know you can't." There is nothing in the entirety of Jesus' teachings to indicated that JESUS (as you claim) "believed sinners are incapable to repent."

Your position invalidates the entirety of the teachings of Christ. You have created a different Gospel.

Now I know you just skipped over all the scripture verses I just posted. But I put them there for a reason. Go back and actually read them. PLEASE. I beg you. And having done that, the only thing I would ask is that you post a scripture verse where Jesus (that guy, HIM - JESUS) ever said that He "believed sinners are incapable to repent."

Just do that. Right now. Please post a scripture verse where Jesus said that He "believed sinners are incapable to repent." Don't go spinning off into some other excuse or dissembling. For you to do so would be for you to continue to delude yourself in this instance.

I would say more, but to continue beyond this specific point would truly damage any possibility of us reaching any kind of agreement.

Please, post a scripture verse where Jesus ever said that He "believed sinners are incapable to repent." (That needs to happen first.) Maybe you can show me something I've missed. Or maybe you can realize that Jesus did not believe that which you think He did.

Rhema

From our Statement of First Principles:

2) We believe that since the Father sent Jesus Christ His Son to preach the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached, and Him alone. (Acts 13:38,39)​

 

[GodB4Us]

Luke 3:7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

John knew they believed.

He also knew they weren't really going to repent of their sins.

So they weren't going to be saved.

8 Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Actually, they could not have believed as they were only doing his water baptism as an outward appearance of doing good without repenting which is what his water baptism was called.

Sinners that believe in Jesus Christ would never have believed in Him if God the Father knew they prefer the evil than come to Him to have their evil deeds reproved.

And since saved believers are not perfect at salvation, but saved is where discipleship comes in as moving on to perfection as they are now able to by faith in Jesus Christ to help them to do this since they are saved..

 

[GodB4Us]

No one can be born again until they obey and repent of their sins.

Being born again means you have to die first.

A person dies by repenting of their sins and crucifying themselves to sin with Christ on the cross.

Belief alone is dead and does nothing.

How is that not of the will of man but born of God when the sinner is able to repent from all sins before he got saved?

When we acknowledge how our believing in Him is a work of the Father, where can man boast of his will power & his own work in repenting from all sins before being saved by Jesus Christ?

 

[GodB4Us]

Can't be born again and saved to a new life in the Lord if you don't crucify yourself and die to the sins of the world with Jesus on that cross.

The crucifying of oneself is a daily walk with the Lord as His disciple and to be able to do that, you need to be born again of the spirit by believing in Jesus Christ to have eternal life.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If man can justify himself by repenting from all sins before being saved, .......................

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Are you done running that race before you got saved or what?

 

[GodB4Us]

@GodB4Us

God chooses those who chose to obey, those who submit themselves to Him, those who submit to obeying everything that comes out of His mouth.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

2 John 1:13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.

Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

None of those verses cites God chooses those who "choose" to obey.

 

[GodB4Us]

So then Jesus preached a lie, or an incomplete gospel (same thing). As I understand your statement above, you believe that Jesus preached a Gospel message that commanded a "specific performance" that He knew to be unattainable (i.e. "Repent").

You have created a cruel Jesus.

The true answer would be YES, not no, since that's exactly what Jesus taught - that sinners should repent and ask for forgiveness, believing the Gospel that HE taught. Instead, you would have us believe that Jesus purposefully misled both the people and the disciples by telling them to do something he knew they couldn't. How cruel. How misleading. How horrible to tell a lie by presenting an incomplete truth. Would you tell your children in all honesty and truth to do something you knew they could not?

(Matthew 4:23 KJV) And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.​

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(Matthew 5:1-2 KJV) And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,​

(Mark 1:14-15 KJV) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.​

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(Luke 13:3-5 KJV) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.​

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(Matthew 4:17 KJV) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

Where did JESUS ever say "but"? Where did JESUS ever say, "REPENT !! But I know you can't." There is nothing in the entirety of Jesus' teachings to indicated that JESUS (as you claim) "believed sinners are incapable to repent."

Your position invalidates the entirety of the teachings of Christ. You have created a different Gospel.

Now I know you just skipped over all the scripture verses I just posted. But I put them there for a reason. Go back and actually read them. PLEASE. I beg you. And having done that, the only thing I would ask is that you post a scripture verse where Jesus (that guy, HIM - JESUS) ever said that He "believed sinners are incapable to repent."

Just do that. Right now. Please post a scripture verse where Jesus said that He "believed sinners are incapable to repent." Don't go spinning off into some other excuse or dissembling. For you to do so would be for you to continue to delude yourself in this instance.

I would say more, but to continue beyond this specific point would truly damage any possibility of us reaching any kind of agreement.

Please, post a scripture verse where Jesus ever said that He "believed sinners are incapable to repent." (That needs to happen first.) Maybe you can show me something I've missed. Or maybe you can realize that Jesus did not believe that which you think He did.

Rhema

From our Statement of First Principles:

2) We believe that since the Father sent Jesus Christ His Son to preach the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached, and Him alone. (Acts 13:38,39)​

Jesus is not cruel when the hope of being delivered from their sins is on Jesus rather than on themselves.

Sin addicts have tried to quit on their own and they know they are unable to. When Christians testify of their hope in Christ to deliver them from their sins and keep them from their sins daily, then sinners will hope & believe in Him too.