B-A-C
Loyal
I didn't realize there was anything else to add. Whoever is behind at the end of the game loses.
Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross
- Thread starter KingJ
- Start date
I didn't realize there was anything else to add. Whoever is behind at the end of the game loses.
KingJ
Loyal
I believe that when David says 'God is good' in Psalm 136:1, what he means is that ''God is good''. As such, if anyone can prove that said belief espouses that He is not good, it is a Christians one job, as an ambassador of God, to explain why said belief is from a good God.
What I have asked here is not unreasonable. It is in fact a must.
I would be ''terrified'' if I espoused anything that painted God as a wicked fool.
I am justified and will continue to call anyone who misrepresents God as defined in scripture, a false teacher. I give my reasons here False teaching, How to know when you are cherry picking scripture.
If anyone does not want to be labelled as such, convince me that what you espouse does not make God out to be, as in the case of non-OSAS, a wicked fool.
KingJ
Loyal
The point I made to which you had no 'comeback' was that Christian A has won 100 games and loses only the last, compared to B, who only won one game.
Does that seem fair?
You need to think on David and his fall. Do you believe David is in hell?
B-A-C
Loyal
Fair has nothing to do with it. But yes, it definitely seems fair to me.
David wasn't "losing" at the end of his life. Solomon on the other hand was.
1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
1Kin 11:8; Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
1Kin 11:9; Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,
Do I think Solomon is in hell? Only God knows for sure. But I'm inclined to say yes.
KingJ
Loyal
Solomon definitely ticked the box of having a right and changed heart with God.
He wrote the below in his last days, after all his sins.
Ecc 1:14 I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
Ecc 12:13-14 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Jonathan_Gale
Active
See, this is why this squabble about OSAS is nonsense, because only God knows for sure. What we do know is that Solomon's sin condemned his household and the entire kingdom. Right after him, Israel was split in two - Ephraim and Judah, and eventually both had gone astray. That is the dire consequence of sin that I talked about. It brings forth hell on earth.
If you wanna know whether you're truly saved or not, just carefully examine your current spiritual state of relationship with God through Yeshua, and you'll know what's to come. It's the trajectory of your life, you know, which goes towards either God or Satan. After death, that trajectory will keep going in that direction you're ALREADY ON forever, and there's zero possibility of turning back. You'll be united with what you worship FOREVER. It can also be put it in this way - today's spiritual life is a PREVIEW of the afterlife, like a movie trailer, a sneak peak of what is to come.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
We are both quoting scripture. I am convinced you are cherry picking. I have already explained the context and debunked many scriptures that appear to be non-OSAS.
I have not seen any here try debunk scripture I have quoted, 1 Cor 5 for example (see post 5) or convince me that with their belief God is still good.
A Christian has ''one'' job. Properly represent God to the lost 2 Cor 5:20. We fail at that one job if we cherry pick scripture that paints God as a wicked fool. Please try understand that.
It is very easy to get lost in scripture and think you are correct. The acid test is to re-visit scriptures that speak to who God is as explained here How to know when you are cherry picking scripture.
As such, I feel it is necessary for you to explain to me how God remains ''righteous in all His ways, light with no darkness'', if He is a wicked fool who would send Christian A in my examples to eternal hell.
Please don't dodge this as Waggles is. BAC took a stab at it, but has not replied to my correction of his example of 'winning a game in the last innings' - see post 10.
I am expecting more from you three. I have respect for all of you. You are all wise Christians.
Greetings brother,
My time is limited due to health and other reasons, I have noted your comments but may not get much time today to reply in details, please do not think I am avoiding replying, far from it.
I also noted the first comment you make... I am convinced you are cherry picking.
That can only be because you appear so affixed in your view that you are missing completely what John 15 says. I an admin cut you out of the forum, are you still in the forum? No.
I have an open mind to scripture brother, that is open to the Holy Spirit revealing to me something I may not have seen before. We must not underestimate him, he is the one who reveals the Truth in the Word. So let us be open at all times to his lead, let us discuss with a completely open mind (not hard for me there is little there) but, and here is the but, we must not disregard one scripture at the expense of another, especially if we are bias to a certain view.
So far this is the only post I have read so will come back tomorrow and see where we go or where we are led.
Brother Paul
Waggles
Loyal
No you have not as scripture does not teach OSAS.
Dear Brother, @Brother-Paul
Praying for your healing brother and complete coverage in your life!
In the name of Jesus!
With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Praying for your healing brother and complete coverage in your life!
In the name of Jesus!
With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Brother-Paul
Loyal
Greetings brother
First we look at the situation Paul was dealing with; He was the one who set up the church in Corinth, and there was trouble from the start, lots of trouble. He was frustrated, he was angry, those in 'the church' included many lost souls, but even saved souls were sinning also, a climax erupts in 2 Corinthians due to the influence of false preaching, so not going to deep at this stage, it was the devils playground.
Now, I feel we have a number of initial considerations,
- there were unsaved souls in the church, that is not possible in the sense that, the church, that is the ekklesia, is only those who are born again from above who have the Spirit in their heart.
- but it is possible for unsaved souls to be in a church if people call the congregation the church, but again I would add, many places of worship make the same mistake today.
Lets first clarify the church.
The Church, the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, is only the believers who adide in Christ (John 15), so that he can abide in them. God is Spirit, the Spirit of Christ is in the truly born again soul, providing they abide in Him (John 15).
When Paul refers to the church at Corinth, which as we stated early he created, it is the souls that are dwelling in the Spirit for our Lord to dwell, in them, they were born again from above.
So what had changed to what Paul was overseeing at the church at Corinth?
Initially it started as what we refer to as a cell church, a small group of born again souls.
But in short place of time, they thought the church was growing because there were more members in the congregation, another common issue today. But some of these additions were saved souls and some were not saved souls. The not saved souls were not really part of the church, they couldn't be, the spirit was not in them. The devil had more than his foot in the door.
Now it is easy to see Paul's growing frustrations, he wasn't there himself, he heard about the issues and wrote to what he calls, the church in Corinth, what we don't know is how long these people had been born again and how much they actually knew. So the devil had an easy job! So what did the group consist os, I cannot use the word church as a whole
- original born again from above souls
- additional born again souls
- additional unsaved souls
- false preacher(s), trouble makers for sure
Who was guilty of sexual sin?
- some saved
- some unsaved
The last is simple, sinners sin and they love to sin, they aim to make even the ugly look beautiful.
So what about the saved souls falling into sexual sin?
There hearts had grown cold, they choose to sin, the devil only tempts, we choose to sin or choose to remain in faith and not be guilty of sinning.
They had chosen to abide in sin, rather than the Saviour, they had started to wither, they were not bearing fruit for God, there is nothing it what you state brother to say, OSAS. Nothing.
All scripture is God breathed.
Having considered the scripture you put forward to say OSAS, I see nothing to contradict John 15, I also do not see anything to make me think there is a conflict between the scriptures.
Firstly, I believe, we have to consider the context of what Paul was dealing with in Corinthians, then be clear in our mind what the church is, they are I believe the foundations, the starting point, without these considerations we may miss the point, hence the reason I convered these above.
If you have anything regarding the above you see differently, please feel free to comment. But please bear in mind all scripture is God breathed. You say others are cherry picking, that is your view, on the basis of that comment I would have to add I, and probably we, cannot help but think you are cherry picking because you are not accepting John 15 as our dear and much Lord tells us, in great detail, I believe so we don't miss the point.
In His Love
Brother Paul
KingJ
Loyal
Rom 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
KingJ
Loyal
Sorry to hear, thanks for still taking time to discuss.
KingJ
Loyal
I have made many points in this thread that nobody has taken a proper stab at. I quoted the entire of 1 Cor 5 as support for OSAS.
I have accused many of cherry picking because all are not dealing with the arguments I am presenting. Not at all. If this were a debate session, it would be going terribly for the pro non-OSAS crowd.
I do like how you make the point that not all in attendance at church are saved. Others here would say they are.
I will give John 15 a read and revert shortly. I agree with considering all scripture.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
@KingJ
THERE had been hideous immorality in the Corinthian Church. Paul had struck at it with heat and force, sternly commanding the exclusion of the sinner. He did so on the ground of the diabolical power of infection possessed by evil, and illustrated that by the very obvious metaphor of leaven, a morsel of which, as he says, ‘will leaven the whole lump,’ or, as we say, ‘batch.’ But the word ‘leaven’ drew up from the depths of his memory a host of sacred associations connected with the Jewish Passover. He remembered the sedulous hunting in every Jewish house for every scrap of leavened matter; the slaying of the Paschal Lamb, and the following feast. Carried away by these associations, he forgets the sin in the Corinthian Church for a moment, and turns to set forth, in the words of the text, a very deep and penetrating view of what the Christian life is, how it is sustained, and what it demands. ‘Wherefore,’ says he, ‘let us keep the feast … with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.’
That ‘wherefore’ takes us back to the words before it. And what are these?
‘Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us’; therefore—because of that sacrifice, to us is granted the power, and on us is laid imperatively the obligation, to make life a festival and to purge ourselves.
Now, in the notion of a feast, there are two things included, joy and plentiful sustenance.
So there are three points here, which I have already indicated—what the Christian life is,
1 - a festival; on what it is sustained,
2 - the Paschal Sacrifice; what it demands,
3 - scrupulous purging out of the old leaven.
Alexander MacLaren, Expositions of Holy Scripture
I read this after writing the last post to you, Alexander MacLaren is spot on as to what Christian life?
1 - it is a festival, on what is sustained; and what is sustained is by abiding in Christ, so He can abide in us.
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
John 15:4
God grafts us into the vine, we can do nothing, why? To bear fruit, if we do not bear fruit for the vine we will wither, we are only sustained by the sap, the Holy Spirit, through Faith. Hence we can be 'cut out'
2 - the Paschal Sacrifice; what it demands
The Christian Life Is A 'Continual Feeding' On A Sacrifice. A continual abiding!
‘Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. Therefore let us 'keep the feast.’
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
John 15:5-8
Can you see brother the need for us to 'abide in Jesus', he sustains us, keeps us safe, gives us life,
Verse 6 warns us clear 'If anyone does not abide in me.....
Verse 8 the Father is Glorified, that we bear much fruit... so YOU WILL be My disciples,
So again if we do not abide in Jesus, we will not be sustained, we will not bear fruit for God,... so YOU WILL NOT be My disciples.
Jesus himself gives us the picture, He gives us the message, He gives us the warnings.
How do we stay safe, that is up to us brother.
That ‘wherefore’ takes us back to the words before it. And what are these?
‘Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us’; therefore—because of that sacrifice, to us is granted the power, and on us is laid imperatively the obligation, to make life a festival and to purge ourselves.
How, in the notion of a feast, there are two things included, joy and plentiful sustenance.
3 - scrupulous purging out of the old leaven. We are to check our Faith, we are to make sure we are on the narrow road,
How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him
Hebrews 2:3
1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking,
2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,
3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)
It is how we are sustained, by constantly abiding in Christ, take away the spiritual milk, is taking away the Holy Spirit within us, we wither and we die. But, not if we abide, we are sustained, we will grow in Faith and grow up to salvation
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation (NIV)
2 Like new-born babies all your longing should be for milk—the unadulterated spiritual milk—which will help you to grow up to salvation (NJB)
2 and be like newborn babies, thirsty for the pure milk of the Word; so that by it, you may grow up into deliverance. (CJB)
So many scriptures refer to us maintaining our abiding in Christ, being sustained by, unadulterated spiritual milk, and growing to Salvation.
If that food source is cut, we wither and die. If previously born again, lose it by being 'cut out' of the vine.
How terrible it will be for those who do not heed our Lord's words
We are to, feed on him in our heart with thanksgiving
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:6-7
Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name.
Psalm 100:4
All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
2 Corinthians 4:15
If we are not doing these things, from our heart, we are not abiding in Christ Jesus.
As the song goes, Jesus put this song into my heart...
Why? He fills us with Joy.
How? By abiding in Him so He can abide in us.
Those who are in Him and Him on their heart how no worries about their salvation.
Those who are tempted back into the wicked and sinful world and don't abide in Christ need to really search their hearts.
Yes you can lose your salvation, but it is not God's fault it is your own, our own. Abide or wither and die, be cut out and burned.
In His Love
Brother Paul
THERE had been hideous immorality in the Corinthian Church. Paul had struck at it with heat and force, sternly commanding the exclusion of the sinner. He did so on the ground of the diabolical power of infection possessed by evil, and illustrated that by the very obvious metaphor of leaven, a morsel of which, as he says, ‘will leaven the whole lump,’ or, as we say, ‘batch.’ But the word ‘leaven’ drew up from the depths of his memory a host of sacred associations connected with the Jewish Passover. He remembered the sedulous hunting in every Jewish house for every scrap of leavened matter; the slaying of the Paschal Lamb, and the following feast. Carried away by these associations, he forgets the sin in the Corinthian Church for a moment, and turns to set forth, in the words of the text, a very deep and penetrating view of what the Christian life is, how it is sustained, and what it demands. ‘Wherefore,’ says he, ‘let us keep the feast … with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.’
That ‘wherefore’ takes us back to the words before it. And what are these?
‘Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us’; therefore—because of that sacrifice, to us is granted the power, and on us is laid imperatively the obligation, to make life a festival and to purge ourselves.
Now, in the notion of a feast, there are two things included, joy and plentiful sustenance.
So there are three points here, which I have already indicated—what the Christian life is,
1 - a festival; on what it is sustained,
2 - the Paschal Sacrifice; what it demands,
3 - scrupulous purging out of the old leaven.
Alexander MacLaren, Expositions of Holy Scripture
I read this after writing the last post to you, Alexander MacLaren is spot on as to what Christian life?
1 - it is a festival, on what is sustained; and what is sustained is by abiding in Christ, so He can abide in us.
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
John 15:4
God grafts us into the vine, we can do nothing, why? To bear fruit, if we do not bear fruit for the vine we will wither, we are only sustained by the sap, the Holy Spirit, through Faith. Hence we can be 'cut out'
2 - the Paschal Sacrifice; what it demands
The Christian Life Is A 'Continual Feeding' On A Sacrifice. A continual abiding!
‘Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. Therefore let us 'keep the feast.’
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
John 15:5-8
Can you see brother the need for us to 'abide in Jesus', he sustains us, keeps us safe, gives us life,
Verse 6 warns us clear 'If anyone does not abide in me.....
Verse 8 the Father is Glorified, that we bear much fruit... so YOU WILL be My disciples,
So again if we do not abide in Jesus, we will not be sustained, we will not bear fruit for God,... so YOU WILL NOT be My disciples.
Jesus himself gives us the picture, He gives us the message, He gives us the warnings.
How do we stay safe, that is up to us brother.
That ‘wherefore’ takes us back to the words before it. And what are these?
‘Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us’; therefore—because of that sacrifice, to us is granted the power, and on us is laid imperatively the obligation, to make life a festival and to purge ourselves.
How, in the notion of a feast, there are two things included, joy and plentiful sustenance.
3 - scrupulous purging out of the old leaven. We are to check our Faith, we are to make sure we are on the narrow road,
How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him
Hebrews 2:3
1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking,
2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,
3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)
It is how we are sustained, by constantly abiding in Christ, take away the spiritual milk, is taking away the Holy Spirit within us, we wither and we die. But, not if we abide, we are sustained, we will grow in Faith and grow up to salvation
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation (NIV)
2 Like new-born babies all your longing should be for milk—the unadulterated spiritual milk—which will help you to grow up to salvation (NJB)
2 and be like newborn babies, thirsty for the pure milk of the Word; so that by it, you may grow up into deliverance. (CJB)
So many scriptures refer to us maintaining our abiding in Christ, being sustained by, unadulterated spiritual milk, and growing to Salvation.
If that food source is cut, we wither and die. If previously born again, lose it by being 'cut out' of the vine.
How terrible it will be for those who do not heed our Lord's words
We are to, feed on him in our heart with thanksgiving
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:6-7
Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name.
Psalm 100:4
All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
2 Corinthians 4:15
If we are not doing these things, from our heart, we are not abiding in Christ Jesus.
As the song goes, Jesus put this song into my heart...
Why? He fills us with Joy.
How? By abiding in Him so He can abide in us.
Those who are in Him and Him on their heart how no worries about their salvation.
Those who are tempted back into the wicked and sinful world and don't abide in Christ need to really search their hearts.
Yes you can lose your salvation, but it is not God's fault it is your own, our own. Abide or wither and die, be cut out and burned.
In His Love
Brother Paul
Brother-Paul
Loyal
Regarding the church, it is simple yet many don't seem to get it.
- God is Spirit
- We are to worship in Spirit and Truth
- When we are born again the Spirit Of Christ 'abides' in us, because we 'abide' in him.
The church is Spiritual.
The building is the kuriakkon, a word introduced by the RCC, that is NOT in scripture
The congregation is only the church, the e kklesia, if ALL souls in the congregation are Born Again. If they are not they have not been born again, the Spirit is not in them.
How many congregations should call themselves the church, probably none as it is likely not all souls are saved, some have more, some have less, as we see with the frustrations Paul had over the issues in the church at Corinth.
The Holy Spirit is our helper, comforter, guider, revealer of The Truth in The Word.
When this gels things start to make more sense, they certainly did for me, thanks be to God.
I feel it is so sad, places of worship want people to become member of their church, more errors
- We don't go to church, we go to be with the church, the church as described above from the scriptures
We are not a member of the 'church', the 'ekklesia' by being members of a local denominational group. You become a member of a denominational group, you are not a member of the ekklesia until you abide in Christ and He in you.
If only preachers would grasp and preach the Truth, many think they are saved because they got to church (to what), they are part of a church (part of what).
Preach the Truth, it is good to be a member of this group, but you must be born again from above (including all the necessities), to be part of the church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. Until you are born again from above you belong to sin, the world and the devil.
Preach with conviction, without fear, preach the unadulterated Word and people will want to belong to the ekklesia.
That is my bit for this subject, I have been places where a preacher calls all the congregation Saints! Total total unTruths, but the congregation believe what the preacher says, so sad.
Sorry for braking from the topic, this subject really fires my spirit for the Lord and His Church.
Bless you
In His Love
Brother Paul
Brother-Paul
Loyal
Greetings Nick
You are aware of some of my issues, everything is a struggle and I get very tired, partly due to the issues, partly due to constant pain, partly because I try do to much, my enthusiasm takes control, all Glory to God in Jesus Name
Sandra is also struggling much more with her rheumatoid and osteo-arthritis, I do what she can't and she does what I can't, again you push yourself for your loved ones brother, as you know.
God woke us up this morning, again, thanks be to God. As long as he keeps waking us there is work to do, but we have no worries if we abicde in Him and let Him abide in us, we are provided with all we need, according to is riches and Glory in heaven.
I learnt a very important lesson when I was 17, I had been crushed in a concrete tunnel incinerator when it all collapse onto me. A day or so later in a hospital bed I saw a young guy, with ropes and pulleys everywhere, plastered body parts and arm and leg in the air. I learned that day, there is always someone worse than you, if not you don't know it.
It doesn't take away the pain and issues in life, it just puts things into prospective, and no matter what you are going through you don't say why me, because there is another lesson, by saying why me I am in effect sayong why not someone else.
So we Trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding brother, abicde in Christ and allow Him to abide in you, He will sustain you all the days of our life. Then one day, we will see properly, hear properly, walk properly, have no more pain, no more suffering, we will be with the Lord forever.
Thanks be to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen
Bless you Nick, you and all your family.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
@Waggles
Sorry for replying to the message to you, but I just felt I have to reply following my discussions with our brother @KingJ today
- Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved (True - but this is one statement)
ALL scripture is God breathed!
- We are to abide in Christ for Him to abide in us, but if we do not abide we will be 'cut out' of the vine. Jesus' own words of warning to us
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
2 Corinthians 13:5 (NKJV)
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
2 Cor 13:5 (NIV)
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test?
2 Cor 13:5 (BSB)
Test and evaluate yourselves to see whether you are in the faith and living your lives as [committed] believers. Examine yourselves [not me]! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves [by an ongoing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test and are rejected as counterfeit?
2 Cor 13:5 (AB)
KingJ
Loyal
@Brother-Paul
Regarding John 15, I assume you are referring to these verses:
John 15:1-8“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
This does not come close to disproving OSAS. If anyone thinks it does it tells me they do not know what a Christian is. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
In this story, the Christian ''is'' the fertile soil Matt 8:23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!
Christian can't but bear good fruit because of its seed. Matt 17:7 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Jesus is making the point in John 15:1-8 that no bad trees / vines will be in heaven. We know this, a classic example is the fallen angels removed or those who call on His name ''being evildoers'' Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Note how it says ''I never knew you''. God will never say this of a true Christian.
As such John 15:1-8 is not stating that Christians will be removed. It is stating that unless we are true Christians, we will be removed.
Regarding John 15, I assume you are referring to these verses:
John 15:1-8“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
This does not come close to disproving OSAS. If anyone thinks it does it tells me they do not know what a Christian is. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
In this story, the Christian ''is'' the fertile soil Matt 8:23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!
Christian can't but bear good fruit because of its seed. Matt 17:7 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Jesus is making the point in John 15:1-8 that no bad trees / vines will be in heaven. We know this, a classic example is the fallen angels removed or those who call on His name ''being evildoers'' Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Note how it says ''I never knew you''. God will never say this of a true Christian.
As such John 15:1-8 is not stating that Christians will be removed. It is stating that unless we are true Christians, we will be removed.
KingJ
Loyal
Rom 10:13 was a trap to show we can both cherry pick.
Rom 10:13 tells us that all who call on His name will be saved. Matt 7:21-23 tells us that not all who call on His name will be saved.
Christian discernment of both and all scripture on the topic is required. You, Waggles and BAC are cherry picking those scriptures that speak to non-OSAS and not accpeting contextual correction, as I have done with your cherry picking of John 15.
As for 2 Cor 13:5, this verse enforces OSAS, Paul is making the point that we need to ensure we are Christians. Failing the test would be us not being Christians. As He explains in 1 Cor 5 a ''brethren so called''. I explain this in my post 5, did you not read it?
As I have said before, I have an argument against you three that none of you seem to care about. You ARE insinuating to all the lost that God is a wicked fool. Explain how He is not with your cherry picked belief, before you blindly quote scriptures that seem to state and support the assertion of Him being a wicked fool.
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KingJ
Loyal
I am shocked by your replies guys @B-A-C , @Brother-Paul and @Waggles
I have stated and explained that your belief insinuates God is a wicked fool as explained from post 1. A belief system that opposes scriptures definitions of God.
An ambassador of God would reply with a:
''No, I disagree, God is not a wicked fool with non-OSAS because of reasons X, Y and Z''.
You seem to not care much for defending your belief from the accusation of God it insinuates as explained in post 43.
Please, I only want to hear you explain to me, how a non-OSAS belief is not the definition of idiocy and a perversion of justice that paints God as a wicked fool.
The bible I read says God is good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and that it is unthinkable to think that He would pervert justice Job 34:12.
I have stated and explained that your belief insinuates God is a wicked fool as explained from post 1. A belief system that opposes scriptures definitions of God.
An ambassador of God would reply with a:
''No, I disagree, God is not a wicked fool with non-OSAS because of reasons X, Y and Z''.
You seem to not care much for defending your belief from the accusation of God it insinuates as explained in post 43.
Please, I only want to hear you explain to me, how a non-OSAS belief is not the definition of idiocy and a perversion of justice that paints God as a wicked fool.
The bible I read says God is good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and that it is unthinkable to think that He would pervert justice Job 34:12.
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