Tenshi - George Martin said:

God didn't write Genesis, the bible isn't written by God, it is written by humans. God didn't magically manifest the bible into existence. As Christianity teaches us (as well as Islam AND Judaism), God portrayed his will through prophets, with which he spoke. Those prophets are humans, and humans are inherently flawed. God's language would be above and beyond that of human understanding, and thus errors in translation can occur. There is a reason the books are named after humans, and that is because that is the human they are written by, I'm sure a devout Christian would know at least that much. For example, Matthew is written by Matthew the apostle.

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You have to think more on this.

If God had to literally write all of scripture like He did the ten commandments. What would the repercussions be?

I would imagine no walking by faith needed as the scripture would have landed with us in a miraculous manner and nobody would have any doubt whatsoever that it is the word of God. No atheists. No different religions. IE....it would seriously hamper free will. The very purpose and reason for God creating earth and putting us on it.

You, me and everyone on the planet can be forgiven for thinking like you did in the post above. But does God ever lie? Ever give us something half baked? Have you ever heard of God healing you of half a sickness? If God does something, He does it properly. You have to try see God using and inspiring humans to pen His perfect word. The bible either is the word of God or it is not. If it is, it is perfect. God holds Himself to it. We can hold God to it.

Can you imagine there being a typo / human error with the ten percent tithe. Say it was in fact supposed to be 1%? Or if hell is supposed to be figurative and not literal. The real risk is that if we take a non literal approach, who decides on the truth of what is written? False teachers can have a field day with Christians who do not take the word literally. Some translations today are doing this. Soon every Christian will need to buy the original Greek and Hebrew versions and learn Greek and Hebrew.

Just on Genesis. How do you explain taking creation as non literal and then Abraham sacrificing his son, as literal?

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

there is no reason a beautiful and omni benevolent God wouldn't have created the process of evolution

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Yes there is. A beautiful God would not sanction natural selection.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

or formed the Earth in the way that science describes in order to lead us to the day we live in.

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Science does actually not describe it like this. Someone's dream does. If you or I saw a fossil of a dinosaur. We would say...wow a dinosaur fossil. Not ....wow, evidence of evolution and my family tree. This false science teaches us that we come from flat worms 800 million years ago. Anyone who calls that science or a scientific theory needs to visit a mental institution.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

Why would an infinitely smart and beautiful God not have the skill and efficacy to make something so intricately and beautifully that everything led up to this, the stars, the sun, the moon.

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You think evolution and the big bang requires higher intelligence? I would accuse a god doing such of stupidity.

Lead up to what....? You think God's final goal was '''a nice and pretty earth''...''nice and pretty stars'''.....'''fascinating dna'''. Lol, no. God's starting goal was us. God's end game is us. God's purpose for it all was.... us. You want to see skill, wait for heaven and the things God has planned for us 1 Cor 2:9.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

I would argue that God is capable of science.

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I should hope so.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

Further still, if God created us in his own image 'Genesis 1:27' and we are pursuing the knowledge of God himself (science) would that not be the same as eating from the tree of Knowledge? 'Genesis 3:6'.

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No, it would not be. The tree of knowledge was knowledge of evil.

Now read that verse and let it sink in properly, ''God created us in His image''. Add to that Heb 2:7 'He made us a little lower then the angels'....and now tell me if you can see a monkey as a creation in God's image or one just beneath the angels .

Tenshi - George Martin said:

Perhaps we have not been misinterpreting this entire time, and that, we ourselves are God, warning ourselves not to pursue the Wisdom of Science, God's Wisdom.

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Are you saying we are God. Are you suggesting God is against us using our God given brains?

Tenshi - George Martin said:

Let us not forget the details, God made us in his image, God warned us not to eat from the tree of knowledge, but we did, and disaster has struck has it not? The Earth is dying, our 'garden of Eden', our planet is dying because of our hunger for wisdom.

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The earth is not dying because of our hunger for wisdom. It is dying because of our stupidity, selfishness and love for money.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

The atom bomb which has killed millions, war, every year that we advance in science more and more die at its hands.

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True lol. We advance because we need better weapons. Quite sick.

Tenshi - George Martin said:

Perhaps we are Adam and Eve and we are still taking our first bite of that apple, slowly. If we were to stretch out the timescale from 6 days to the scientific 13.7 billion years that led to this point (thats what science suggests, I'm not saying that it IS true). Then on that scale, the amount of time we've spent pursuing science (about 3000 years) if we divide that by the supposed age of the universe (by carbon dating) 13.7 billion / 3000 = 4.56 million we then take that and divive 6 days by that to give us the amount of time we have been eating the apple for according to the bible which come out at 1.32x10^-6 days which if you convert it to seconds comes out at 0.114048 Seconds. If you were to take the bible's idea of the creation of the Earth and stretch it to the length of the scientific explanation of the Earth, we have been eating that apple for 0.1 seconds. Our teeth are just starting to dig in. Something to think about. Again this is just some maths and a hypothesis. Let that sink in though, perhaps we've been thinking about it all wrong this whole time. I came up with all of this on the spot, didn't steal it from anywhere. Just some simple maths and comparison.

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Math???? That is not math. You are working off of some guys dream. 13.7 billion was a date given to kind of justify the dating of fossils. Any further date would make that seem really stupid.

You want math.... try work out your odds of getting 6-7 winning numbers for the lotto. Then, instead of a population of 45 numbers, use trillions. Instead of six winning numbers (as we know no body part is merely 6 parts) try up-sizing it to 1 000. So, if the lotto odds of 6 winning numbers from a selection of 45 numbers is X. What are the odds of 1 000 winning numbers from a selection of trillions? Evolution needs to go back to the drawing board. Random mutation to what we are now is a joke. Even evolution in a population / genetic hitchhiking is a joke. It just makes rubbish sound more believable.

Now TE's come in and say.. 'well we know that, that is why we believe God has a guiding hand'. Uhm, except that you jump and side with the ridiculous claims made by atheistic evolutionists no matter how much they mock God.

Evolution mocks the 1. cross, 2. God and the 3.Bible.

1. Jesus died for mankind because mankind is accountable for sin. If mankind's accountability (which is purely from intelligence) was evolving, it makes the cross a joke. When Adam fell... did he get wise counsel from his ape father? Was his ape father smart enough to raise him... but not smart enough to be judged for his sins? We are accountable for our sins because we have working brains that know the difference between good and evil. We had them from day one. That is why Jesus needed to die for all of mankind.

2. Natural selection implies God is evil. All evil must be able to be traced to us. Evil only exists because it is a necessity for a good God to accommodate it for the greater good of free will. Ie it is our doing, not God's. God foresaw it (made lions with big teeth), but God did not enforce it (lions lay with lambs, with their big teeth'n all). If you don't see natural selection as evil, please ask the guy getting eaten alive what he thinks of it.

3. If intelligent man existed before Adam, where is the missing scripture from God to mankind? It makes the 6 000 year old bible look like recent fairytale dogma. The bible only records mankind's genealogy back to 6k -7.5k years ago. The debate is not over the age of the earth.

dh charles said:

Many parts of the Bible are indeed above human understanding. So much that if you understand you don't understand.

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I've read words in the recent past of Bible skeptics that ridicule believers of the Bible as being instructed by ignorant goat herders. So now we know less about the Bible than they did?
For people that are not readers of the Bible, indeed much of it is above their understanding. It isn't God's message to man that's above understanding. It's a problem due to lack of study of it and applying those words as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Dovegiven said:

I've read words in the recent past of Bible skeptics that ridicule believers of the Bible as being instructed by ignorant goat herders. So now we know less about the Bible than they did?
For people that are not readers of the Bible, indeed much of it is above their understanding. It isn't God's message to man that's above understanding. It's a problem due to lack of study of it and applying those words as directed by the Holy Spirit.

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That is exactly was I was saying...you got it . Maybe I wasn't clear what I was saying. It is always good to be understood. Looking forward to more conversations from people like you.

dh charles said:

not really

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So...you believe that Holy Spirit is unable to reveal truth to you in a manner that you will comprehend it, is that correct?

think darwins theory of evolution has been throughly debunked but a lot of people still try and hold to it.

genetic research has found out all sorts of things that correspond to Gods word.
While we can't go back in time and find out exactly HOW God created every single living thing, the evidence is all around us that things happened as God said it did. So it's a matter of just trusting Him.

We can't know everything, and if we think we know everything, half the time it turns out we are mistaken.

Dovegiven said:

A companion thought to ponder is whether creation science is supportable with scriptures and science facts, and is the biblical and scientific answer to both your questions.
Another is whether creation science is true science, which if we find it is, then evolution is in greater danger than proponents realize.

Made in His Image: Baby's First Breath
Human Body | The Institute for Creation Research
All mothers, mothers to be, and dads ought to take a look. It blessed us, and is being found very amazing to nurses we know who were not so aware of these amazing facts about a fetus. The whole of it speaks strongly of special creation of man by God, with a heart warming conclusion.

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Thank you for sharing this article!

Lanolin said:

think darwins theory of evolution has been throughly debunked but a lot of people still try and hold to it.

genetic research has found out all sorts of things that correspond to Gods word.
While we can't go back in time and find out exactly HOW God created every single living thing, the evidence is all around us that things happened as God said it did. So it's a matter of just trusting Him.

We can't know everything, and if we think we know everything, half the time it turns out we are mistaken.

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Smart lady.
Not to mention Diabetes, allergies etc. and people who have gone backwards in evolution. It never ceases to amaze me how people try to think they know the mindset of God...........outside of the Bible. They spin it to suit themselves and their agenda while ignoring common sense and honesty. They try to change history to make themselves right in their own interpretation......little by little. If this keeps up the Bible will one day be reworded to the extent that the meaning(s) are changed.

Curtis said:

Brother I don't think you will be able say this was not God speaking here, and what he was talking about.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The word "vain" is the exact same word used in Genesis 1:2 but using the word, "without form". Theses two words word mean.....

to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

This is exactly what the earth was in Genesis 1:2, but God did not originally create it this way.

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A potter will create a vase. He starts with a formless, void, featureless lump of clay that will take on a future shape and function according to what he determines.
God didn't form the earth without a purpose. The purpose was for it to become inhabited.

Isaiah 45:12-13 (KJV) 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

That's linked to verse 18, the whole chapter dealing with a prophesy of the conqueror Cyrus, that God would disable kingdoms to allow him success, empowering him to release captive Israel. I like to keep each verse firmly within the context.
So I'll add two verses that should be used together, still, keeping the entire context in view:
Isaiah 45:18-19 (KJV)
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

The Heb. for vain in that context is the same for the tohu in Gen 1:2. The Bible tells me God did in fact originate the planet earth as told in Genesis, not holding it over from some former world scenario of life habitat, for the earth was in the beginning (Genesis 1) found featureless and empty of life. What seems illogical to some, that God would create something lifeless and formless, shapeless, useless, should become apparent as to possible purpose when examining molten lava. What begins as dangerous builds land, so even flowing lava has a grand purpose.

Nowhere does the Bible even hint at the world of Genesis 1 was formerly inhabited. Some people speculate about that in an effort to support evolution while not dividing the scriptures correctly.

There are scriptures, in context, certifying that the world of Genesis 1 was made, then inhabited, then catastrophically flooded in Gen 8, then dry land reappeared and the world was re-inhabited, man and air breathing animals restocked from the ark.

Jesus linked "in the beginning" to the last day of creation, to Adam and Eve. He never mentioned a previous beginning of the world. He spoke what the Father told him, so Jesus affirmed the word to declare a whole new beginning of planet earth starting in Gen 1:1 Evolution was invented and promoted by godless people, much of the things of it still believed based on blatant lies. I find it very alarming that modern science never apologizes for such grand tragedies, but seeks smarter excuses, not restoring truth. The whole thing is like a tornado striking a pillow factory, feathers covering a county, impossible to put back where they belong. Many scholarly papers, books, and other media like Jurassic Park are too widely distributed bearing lies revealed in the news many times. I had a lake contract with a retired university professor who has several books in print, most out of print now, that he regrets having published many of his former beliefs which carried on the evolution lie. He made his fortune from those, like many more like him who are chasing the money, unwilling to denounce the 'goose that lays the golden eggs'.

dh charles said:

Smart lady.
Not to mention Diabetes, allergies etc. and people who have gone backwards in evolution. It never ceases to amaze me how people try to think they know the mindset of God...........outside of the Bible. They spin it to suit themselves and their agenda while ignoring common sense and honesty. They try to change history to make themselves right in their own interpretation......little by little. If this keeps up the Bible will one day be reworded to the extent that the meaning(s) are changed.

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Science is producing abundant facts about life, which demonstrate very clearly how a living cell is a lot more complex than thought 10 years ago. We now know the lack of a single part of a cell results in cellular failure. We know certain enzymes are necessary for life, the organism not possibly living formerly without a certain protein, for instance. Geneticists are increasingly realizing evolution from simple organisms to complex organisms would have required all necessary molecules to be present in an original "in the beginning" organism. No organism could have spontaneously developed an eye then try to develop all the elements necessary to provide sight. Long before enough chemicals could appear by chance, the beginning of an eye would have had to cease, found useless, a pointless use of cells.

So there is no reversing of evolution. That's speculation based on observation of some animals losing certain characteristics, which happens as a normal course of nature. DNA regulates adaptation, sometimes over centuries as a climate changes, and sometimes within months during drought, like on a remote island, birds having to adjust to eating formerly ignored foods. They are programmed to change back and forth, often with a very wide range of potential corrections.

DHC said:

Hello Curtis.

You caught my attention with your post, though I am not sure about the translation of the tenth line from this first chapter of Genesis.

Genesis 1:10 (KJV)
And God called the dry land Earth...

In the first section of this line, the Hebrew has been translated as 'the dry land Earth'. The Hebrew does not seem to have
the Hebrew word for 'earth' in the text. For some unknown reason, some translations seem to have inserted two words
'land' and 'earth' into their translations. The Hebrew text only has the one word, Strongs H776, which means 'land' and does
not have an additional word for 'earth'.

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Looking at the Hebrew, we could present it in English as Elohim (God) qara "called" yabbasha (dry) eres (Earth)......

The KJV inserts land in italics to better define "Earth", so eres is presented as land-earth that is dry. The Earth word is a proper noun that fits with
the Hebrew transliteration of "yam" with the English proper noun "Seas".

Ophel said:

I can play your game, too. Yes, really.

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You started It when I said I was just being honest and using common sense and just wanted to show appreciation where appreciation was due.......You just answered NOT really.

Dovegiven said:

Looking at the Hebrew, we could present it in English as Elohim (God) qara "called" yabbasha (dry) eres (Earth)......

The KJV inserts land in italics to better define "Earth", so eres is presented as land-earth that is dry. The Earth word is a proper noun that fits with
the Hebrew transliteration of "yam" with the English proper noun "Seas".

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No offense, of course sir, I am just not into that kind of thing. But, It is an interesting spin. It's just that I used to go through that kind of mind masturbation when I was young. Now I am just a simple man, LOL

dh charles said:

No offense, of course sir, I am just not into that kind of thing. But, It is an interesting spin. It's just that I used to go through that kind of mind masturbation when I was young. Now I am just a simple man, LOL

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Never offense taken. I've simply made my living by living up to every word of contracts with clients. Fortunately I never entered into a one-sided covenant with any mortal, not knowing how much I'd slow down decades later. I regard the word of God as being much higher than any contract between men, a covenant being a far higher and more powerful agreement that puts immense responsibility upon the grantor. My contracts all have expiration dates. God's word to man is eternal, and is administered by him alone, man having no power to make any eternal promise that can be executed by that man.

So it is that when I study the scriptures, I digest every word, eat it. The power of covenant promises is embedded in the very honor of one's name forever, so I take every word of every verse very seriously so that I have done all possible to know the practical extent of every promise. God is faithful to his word, willing to tell me when I know what to believe and receive of him.

A flippant regard for the word of God assures that a person never receives anything good from God that isn't already poured out on everyone, righteous or wicked, like rain and sunlight falls on all where those are available.

Dovegiven said:

Never offense taken. I've simply made my living by living up to every word of contracts with clients. Fortunately I never entered into a one-sided covenant with any mortal, not knowing how much I'd slow down decades later. I regard the word of God as being much higher than any contract between men, a covenant being a far higher and more powerful agreement that puts immense responsibility upon the grantor. My contracts all have expiration dates. God's word to man is eternal, and is administered by him alone, man having no power to make any eternal promise that can be executed by that man.

So it is that when I study the scriptures, I digest every word, eat it. The power of covenant promises is embedded in the very honor of one's name forever, so I take every word of every verse very seriously so that I have done all possible to know the practical extent of every promise. God is faithful to his word, willing to tell me when I know what to believe and receive of him.

A flippant regard for the word of God assures that a person never receives anything good from God that isn't already poured out on everyone, righteous or wicked, like rain and sunlight falls on all where those are available.

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I have a feeling that we are a lot alike; a searcher for the truth and one who is after the heart of God.

Dovegiven said:

The whole thing is like a tornado striking a pillow factory, feathers covering a county, impossible to put back where they belong.

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Lol :laugh:

KingJ said:

Lol :laugh:

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Yes, once the features are out it's hard or impossible to put them back. And once in they change positions and colors and some feathers are heavier than others. Where now to you lay the pillows?

Tenshi - George Martin said:

God didn't write Genesis, the bible isn't written by God, it is written by humans. God didn't magically manifest the bible into existence. As Christianity teaches us (as well as Islam AND Judaism), God portrayed his will through prophets, with which he spoke. Those prophets are humans, and humans are inherently flawed. God's language would be above and beyond that of human understanding, and thus errors in translation can occur. There is a reason the books are named after humans, and that is because that is the human they are written by, I'm sure a devout Christian would know at least that much. For example, Matthew is written by Matthew the apostle.

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@Tenshi - George Martin

If you believe in a flawed god then your reasoning would be correct. However, if God is so above in all ways. Would He not have chosen the individual to provide the exact context He meant to be communicated? Now translations can/may take away from the original text, but the harmony/thread of scripture from start to finish is amazing when one considers the number of writers and years separating the writings thereof.

So, to state because the original writings are flawed one must conclude that you are thus dealing with a flawed god, which is not a premise I know to be true and definitely must be some other god then the One I believe in. Only allows you to dispute certain issues/believability within the mindset of say "science" which is fine for you, but when "spiritual" mindset is needed for comprehension. Relying solely on science will insure that the truth contained within the Bible will forever allude you and accepting less then what is available to know.

Just keep in mind that I am not saying that one must exclude science in trying to understand the Bible. What I am saying is don't be limited by the narrow knowledge of Science to the exclusion of other possibilities that science is unable to define, because of the unwillingness to accept the alternative mechanisms needed to do so. Some of these intangibles can only be found through God i.e. faith, belief, spiritually etc.

Sadly one must believe that He exists before one can seek Him and be rewarded.
Only with the Love of Christ Jesus.
C4E
<><

Christ4Ever said:

@Tenshi - George Martin

If you believe in a flawed god then your reasoning would be correct. However, if God is so above in all ways. Would He not have chosen the individual to provide the exact context He meant to be communicated? Now translations can/may take away from the original text, but the harmony/thread of scripture from start to finish is amazing when one considers the number of writers and years separating the writings thereof.

So, to state because the original writings are flawed one must conclude that you are thus dealing with a flawed god, which is not a premise I know to be true and definitely must be some other god then the One I believe in. Only allows you to dispute certain issues/believability within the mindset of say "science" which is fine for you, but when "spiritual" mindset is needed for comprehension. Relying solely on science will insure that the truth contained within the Bible will forever allude you and accepting less then what is available to know.

Just keep in mind that I am not saying that one must exclude science in trying to understand the Bible. What I am saying is don't be limited by the narrow knowledge of Science to the exclusion of other possibilities that science is unable to define, because of the unwillingness to accept the alternative mechanisms needed to do so. Some of these intangibles can only be found through God i.e. faith, belief, spiritually etc.

Sadly one must believe that He exists before one can seek Him and be rewarded.
Only with the Love of Christ Jesus.
C4E
<><

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George, with all due respect intended, you seem awful pumped up with human knowledge. If a man thinks like a human finite frame of reference he will be disappointed many many times in life. I was myself frustrated many times until I finally let the Holy Spirit in. Not only does a man have to believe that God exist before that man can seek Him...he must submit to the folly and potential foolishness of human knowledge, Only then can you understand the Bible and its knowledge. And your understanding here will not depend on intellect. It is from the spirit of the Bible. Submitting to the infiniteness of God is indeed the beginning of true knowledge. Think of the mess that humans have made. All the hypocrisy. All the lack of common sense. All the lives that are defined by lonely lives full of desperation. All the lies and spin. It remains hard for me to believe that so many humans define themselves by sex, crime, thievery etc. There are even "religions" that cut peoples heads off. Really........do you really place your hope in that? You believe in that?
Again, one must be lead by this acceptance of God BEFORE he understands the Bible. If submission is not obtained then the head continues to be filled and contaminated with human faulty "intelligence". George, don't you get tired of thinking our poop don't stink?
Do you know what inspiration is? If your inspiration ends and begins with your own worldly knowledge then that would be not only boring and a losers existence but also fraught with a vicious conundrum. I am inspired otherwise. It was an easy decision I would..........., I hate to use the word here but I will.......... think. One does have to think Jjust don't get carried away with oneself..
Where do I learn more about this amazing way of living. Let me guess....lets see; I know; Darwin's survival of the fittest. Better yet I will read philosophy and history books.....well now that was confusing and much has been proven wrong anyway. You know; I think I will stick with the Bible. It is a decision after all. MMMMMMMMMMM it sure does not seem like it is limited by the knowledge of men. In fact, one could say,if they believe in that sort of thing, that it is inspirational..

dh charles said:

George, with all due respect intended,.

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Your post was a bit confusing in that you quoted C4E, but in your defense you clearly said George .

I just want to add. Creating a creation that you love so much that you are going to die for them.....then waiting billions of years through cruel natural selection for a measly 6-7.5k years of the billions to interact with them as they are finally on a level capable of interaction....implies the Creator is dumb and evil. We can do 4d printing today. We can completely understand someone speaking something into existence.