English Standard Version John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

BAC I would say I agree with that 100% and really don't see how anyone could not.

B-A-C said:

I somewhat agree with this... yet, on the other hand. No one gets to heaven without Jesus.
Abraham may not have known Jesus' name. But he knew God, and trusted Him. He was obedient to God
in many things. Many people believe Abraham went to Paradise (Abraham's bosom) but he didn't go
to heaven until the time of Jesus.

Click to expand...

Probably we do agree. But there two questions I have. First: Who and what is Jesus?

How well do each of know the answer? We don't know Jesus because some man introduced us to him, any more than I knew my wife after some man introduced me to her. I know her better now than I did when we were married 43 years ago, but we still don't each other completely. We are still learning and growing.

Is that not also so with Jesus... or shouldn't it be?

The second question is: What does it mean to have Jesus? That question may be more difficult to answer to any man's satisfaction. What we have that is real is the Spirit of God. Without that Spirit, we have nothing that is good in the end of the matter...

B-A-C said:

I somewhat agree with this... yet, on the other hand. No one gets to heaven without Jesus.
Abraham may not have known Jesus' name. But he knew God, and trusted Him. He was obedient to God
in many things. Many people believe Abraham went to Paradise (Abraham's bosom) but he didn't go
to heaven until the time of Jesus.

Click to expand...

My point is the word, Jesus, is not what we are seeking. What we are seeking is to get into the name, which is much more than a word in any human language. Was it tougher for Abraham to believe God than it is for us? Was it impossible for him to get into the "Name" without being able to speak the name with his human mouth?

To be in the name of Jesus means to be in the same Spirit as Jesus. Any unbeliever can speak the name, Jesus, without being in that Spirit, without ever approaching the throne of God.

When we are in the name of Jesus, we are in a heaven rather than the hell which is the normal abode of the unbelieving sinner. But, I see three heavens as there were three levels in the ark built by Noah. All of the beasts in the ark were saved, but the ones that were beasts remained beasts. Ultimately what hope do we have if we remain beasts, even clean beasts?

By the power of the Holy Spirit we can move out of our hell into heaven. Jesus made that a possibility, but we have to be in the Name or in the Spirit to do so. The problem is that when people too often quench the Holy Spirit and move backward rather than forward. They slide down rather than climb up.

amadeus2 said:

we are in a heaven rather than the hell which is the normal abode of the unbelieving sinner.

Click to expand...

An interesting way to phrase that. I know some people (both saved and unsaved) who think their life is hell.
Surely it seems they are going through some difficult times. But the hell they are enduring now, is nothing like
the literal hell some will endure after the judgment.

I also know some people (both saved and unsaved) who think this life is a paradise. They are happy, things are good.
But this paradise is nothing like the paradise/heaven some will receive after the resurrection.

B-A-C said:

I somewhat agree with this... yet, on the other hand. No one gets to heaven without Jesus.
Abraham may not have known Jesus' name. But he knew God, and trusted Him. He was obedient to God in many things. Many people believe Abraham went to Paradise (Abraham's bosom) but he didn't go to heaven until the time of Jesus.

Click to expand...

You're right, no one gets to Heaven without Jesus. Jesus Christ who is GOD the Son. He was there before Abraham or the earth ever existed. John 8:58 Jesus my King, our King, IS GOD. Just to be clear.

You can be IN Christ and not know His name as Jesus Christ. When you speak of YHWH... or.. The Holy Spirit... who are you speaking of but The Almighty who is Jesus Christ?

When Abraham stood before the burning bush, who was he standing before? Whose voice did he hear? Is the voice of God not the voice of Christ?

How about at Mt. Sinai?

Exodus 24:10
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.


God can show Himself to any man that seeks Him... regardless of location or what language he speaks. The heart teaches us about God (Romans 1:20) and the Bible is a gift. But it isn't needed to know that there is a God.. to realize we are flawed and need help.. and to ask in our hearts for God to help us.

This is the essence of God's salvation. HE is the key, and HE is Universal... not limited by anything. The ONE True Living God.

If they put their trust in God then they are putting their trust in Jesus Christ.. for there is only one God.

While this is the case for those who have not heard the name Christ, I'm not implying it applies to those who have heard of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins... so don't go jumping off the deep end and take what I say and run. Those who have heard the Gospel and reject it, have rejected that same One True Living God's help.

Ceptor said:

When Abraham stood before the burning bush, who was he standing before?

Click to expand...

Was it Abraham? Or Moses?

Been there... done that.

Indeed. Multi-tasking

Danke

B-A-C said:

An interesting way to phrase that. I know some people (both saved and unsaved) who think their life is hell.
Surely it seems they are going through some difficult times. But the hell they are enduring now, is nothing like
the literal hell some will endure after the judgment.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you find it it interesting. Some people have been a bit more unkind in their disagreement with my viewpoint.

I also know some people (both saved and unsaved) who think this life is a paradise. They are happy, things are good.
But this paradise is nothing like the paradise/heaven some will receive after the resurrection.

Click to expand...

How would those who for the moment think it to be paradise if they lived in a heavily Islamic or a communist country instead of superficial Christian capitalistic one? Perhaps we will soon not be able speak of having such a better of life in the USA or other in supposedly civilized and Christian countries.

The lesson I've learned from God time and time again throughout life...

You don't know what you have until you've lost it.

Ceptor said:

The lesson I've learned from God time and time again throughout life...

You don't know what you have until you've lost it.

Click to expand...

Much has already been lost. I can remember when we had so much more in the secular world.

People did not realize then that they were losing what they had by seeking what they wanted instead of thanking God for what they already had. Now blindly they walk as even more is being lost presuming that they [men] are leading themselves to a place of a glorious world by their own efforts.

Dave M said:

I here a lot of today's preachers saying we are in end times, this is the possibly the last generation. To me this is a red flag this simple yet revealing verse tells me we far from end times .

King James 2000 Bible Mark 13 -10
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There are plenty of places all over the world that have never herd the name Jesus, so until all these people are reached we are not close to end times.

What are your thoughts on this?

Click to expand...

The gospel IS being preached in every corner of the planet now...1.5 billion people just came online with short wave radios to listen to the gospel in the last month....Anywhere the gospel in not being preached by people Jesus Himself is reaching out to save all who will receive Muslims are being saved directly by Jesus in droves...Now read the news and look up

B-A-C said:

The United States used to be a Christian nation... but has going in the wrong direction for the last 50 years or so.

Most of the countries that do not allow Christian evangelism ( the so-called 10/40 window) have all been evangelized
at some point in the past. There was Christianity in Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Ethiopia, Palestine, and even parts of
Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Iran. As you say... they have never really been predominately Christian... but the gospel
has been preached in these countries.

Click to expand...

Actually the United States never was a Christian nation...
1 America's name derives from the Incan AMARUCA meaning; the Land of the Serpent Gods.
2 Unrecognized by the vast majority of peoples around the world is the greatest conspiracy of all time, sitting right out in the open in Washington DC and at the Vatican. It is an ancient, magical, talismanic diagram—the Lost Symbol—based on the history and cult of Isis, Osiris, Horus, and the prophecy of the deity’s return.
3 According to the world’s foremost authorities—including Robert Hieronimus, United States official records, and even Freemason scholars—Washington DC was designed as a symbol of the Rosicrucian dream shared by its builders: that America would become the New Atlantis and eventually lead the world into a restored Golden Age of Osiris.
4 This mostly unfamiliar fact is what legendary Freemason, Manly P. Hall, called "the secret destiny of America." It is a vision mirrored in the design of the streets, government buildings, and other artifacts important to the founding of the United States, including the Great Seal, where the phrase Novus Ordo Seclorum is prominent. In his second inaugural address, George W. Bush said of this phrase that when the founders of America placed it on the Great Seal, "They were acting on an ancient hope that is meant to be fulfilled." As an example; Did you know that Washington DC is laid out in the shape of a pentagram?

Need I go on?
Understand here...I love the United States...In the way she should be...I have only the best desires for this wonderful country and her people....But it does hurt to know the truth and to know how we have been lied to by those we trusted

Before you fight with me on this....Do some deep research.

This country is Babylon the great harlot revived and cloaked as a Christian nation. Works great doesn't it? Hitler loved that little trick. People eat it up without looking beneath the surface.

Stuff a shovel in the dirt and goodness.. where'd all these skeletons come from? They filled the closet and had no more room. Gotta stuff'em somewhere. Couple inches of dirt, and poof. Christian suckers here we come..

Ceptor said:

This country is Babylon the great harlot revived and cloaked as a Christian nation. Works great doesn't it? Hitler loved that little trick. People eat it up without looking beneath the surface.

Stuff a shovel in the dirt and goodness.. where'd all these skeletons come from? They filled the closet and had no more room. Gotta stuff'em somewhere. Couple inches of dirt, and poof. Christian suckers here we come..

Click to expand...

It's really bugsome that all the history we learned in school was a pack of lies.... Here's our Capitol Building...

“The Most Approved Plan:
The Competition for the Capitol’s Design,” on the Library of
Congress’ website, tells how, after advertising a competition for the design of Government Center in DC, “Washington, Jefferson, and the Commissioners of the District of Colombia” were disappointed by the entries, and a design based on “The Roman Pantheon—the circular domed rotunda dedicated to all pagan gods—was suggested by Jefferson, who later shepherded it through several transformations [emphasis added].” Freemason David Ovason adds that when the cornerstone of the U.S. Capitol building was laid, it was done through Masonic ritual meant to procure approval o f the
pagan gods. As recorded in two bronze panels on the Senate doors of the Capitol, George Washington is seen standing in front of a Mason who holds two versions of the Masonic square, while he himself uses a Masonic trowel on the cornerstone.