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Thoughts on Job

Mr Quantrilll you're simply playing with semantics...If God is responsible for Job's suffering, it simply means God is doing it to Job...Whether He uses his own hand or uses Satan GOD IS RESPONSIBLE for Jobs situation.....That's what you are saying. Its all Gods fault that Job is suffering....And that answer is simply untrue...Job set himself up for Satan to attack him. God did not do that. Job was a delight to God and God held Job up as His trophy man. Not to give to Satan for a toy, not to let Satan torture Job, not for any nefarious reason.....Torturing Job was Satan's idea....There is no place in the entire Book that shows it was God's idea. That's just more religious trash.

You're exactly right. God is doing it to Job. It is God's responsibility, not a fault.

You say Job set himself up. God never said that. You are holding a different opinion of Job than God does. That should concern you.

I have showed you continually where it shows that it was God's idea. (Job 1:8) (Job 42:11)

Nice speech.

Quantrill
 
OK OK. God is a mean nasty killer. For no reason whatsoever he slaughtered Jobs 10 kids. He stole all of Jobs livestock then sat back and told Job how much He loved him. He stole and killed and then sat back to watch Job suffer...for entertainment. Ok. Now explain how LOVE works that way. Explain how LOVE will do that to teach anybody anything and not even have the brains to tell the victim what he is supposed to learn. That's my challenge to you.....I showed you how love works within the laws laid down.
God set everything to work within a set of laws and you think He worked outside those laws.....Teach me how He did that.
Is Mr Quantrilll correct? Does God employ a psychopatic moron like Satan to teach us good things? Or get revenge for God when we sin? Or maybe Satan is not really so bad?
 
You're exactly right. God is doing it to Job. It is God's responsibility, not a fault.

You say Job set himself up. God never said that. You are holding a different opinion of Job than God does. That should concern you.

I have showed you continually where it shows that it was God's idea. (Job 1:8) (Job 42:11)

Nice speech.

Quantrill
Then God makes the rules and breaks His own rules...Great example. Why don't you explain how He can't even follow the same rules He laid out
 
Satan was the only angel God questioned over even being at the meeting. Satan was and still is the Accuser of the brethren. Of all people on earth God could brag on His friend Job, doubtless knowing Satan was there on that account, and not as claimed just roaming earth. No other topic was brought up from Satan. Satan came there knowing exactly what Job was about, was able to discuss him with God. That's a perfect picture of a modern prosecuting attorney having already made available facts of a case to a defense attorney, before taking the case to court. It's like a lawman is permitted to let a suspect talk without counsel, allowing him to say incriminating words, which allows probable cause to search a vehicle for evidence of a confessed crime. There was nothing wrong with the lawman bringing up a conversation matter that he knows might cause the suspect to tip his hand. So what was at all wrong for God to bring up Job? God can't lie or sin.

Since Satan was defeated in the case of Underworld v. Job. Might that have been God's plan, while remaining Righteous, letting Satan hang himself? In the end God was also Just concerning losses not by His hand.

Since we are now speculating some, I'll think God already knew Satan wanted to get to Job because of that hedge of protection, but couldn't, so came there with accusations against God and Job. When someone is falsely accused in a court, it's proper to prove a false accusation is wrong, though the accused is unwise to try being his own defense attorney. God could just make it go away, but chose to prove his approval of Job. He didn't raise a finger against Job, but let the hedge down, allowing Satan to touch Job, there being no general covenant giving a moral right, even for God, to give the one man divine protection.

Satan said in verse 5: Job 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

God said instead:
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Where does it say Job's original children died and "went on to be with God"? What covenant promise made that possible? Perhaps they went to Paradise to await Jesus' preaching the gospel, not having a clue what was happening or to happen. There's also the death of practically all of Job's servants who were not likely among the drinking and eating folks.

As for God managing accusations from Satan His way, you would have to include true accusations in the process of managing that. I have no doubt Satan is still accusing Christians who have hidden sin, and seeks to destroy the upright. It isn't that when those accusations come is when God learns about issues. He already knows. But when the Devil learns it, one's life could get rough while that gets sorted out, instead of confessing to God and repenting, choosing His hand of grace. That brings up quite a list of topics to discuss!

I agree with what you wrote that I didn't challenge.

There is nothing to indicate that the conversation between God and satan was all that was said. That is all we are told. It was not a meeting of equals. The angels came presenting themselves before God. It was giving an account of their actions.

satan gave no accusation until God directed his attention to him. It was God all the way. There was nothing wrong with God bringing satan's attention to Job. There was nothing wrong with God being responsible for the sufferings Job incurred as a result.

As far as God's plan, when God moves, He never is doing just 'one thing'. He is doing many things. He increased Job's faith. satan was defeated in that Job never cursed God. Additional revelation is added that will eventually be recorded as Scripture.

Well, of course satan wanted to get to Job. he wants to get to all of God's people. Again, satan didn't bring up Job. God did. (Job 1:8) And God brought it up because He wanted to bring these sufferings upon Job.

I don't know why you say, 'but God said instead'. satan didn't ask to kill Job, though I'm sure he would have like to. he asked God to put forth His hand and afflict Job and he will curse you. God said, go ahead, but don't kill him. (Job 2:5-6)

At the very beginning of the book we see Job was concerned over his children. He worried over their relationship with God. (Job 1:2-5) Part of the sufferings God inflicted upon Job was that He had all his children killed. (Job 1:18-19) That was 7 sons and three daughters. (Job 1:2) When the afflictions were over, God restored Job twice as much as he had before. (Job 42:10) Check out the numbering of his livestock. (Job 1:3) Compare it to the restoration. (Job 42:12) Exactly doubled. But, (Job 42:13) says, "He had also seven sons and three daughters". But wait, that is exactly as many as he started with. How is that doubled? Because they live. God is showing Job his children live and are with him and He doubled Jobs children by giving him ten more. The very thing Job was worried over in chapter one, God has assured him it is alright.

I have no doubt God is managing and Jesus Christ is managing satan's attacks on us.

Quantrill
 
OK OK. God is a mean nasty killer. For no reason whatsoever he slaughtered Jobs 10 kids. He stole all of Jobs livestock then sat back and told Job how much He loved him. He stole and killed and then sat back to watch Job suffer...for entertainment. Ok. Now explain how LOVE works that way. Explain how LOVE will do that to teach anybody anything and not even have the brains to tell the victim what he is supposed to learn. That's my challenge to you.....I showed you how love works within the laws laid down.
God set everything to work within a set of laws and you think He worked outside those laws.....Teach me how He did that.
Is Mr Quantrilll correct? Does God employ a psychopatic moron like Satan to teach us good things? Or get revenge for God when we sin? Or maybe Satan is not really so bad?

Yes, those are exactly the kind of questions that the Book of Job makes us confront. Why do bad things happen to good people? why do good things happen to bad people? Is all our suffering deserved? Is is punishment from God? Is there a point at which we should stop asking questions of God?
 
Yes, those are exactly the kind of questions that the Book of Job makes us confront. Why do bad things happen to good people? why do good things happen to bad people? Is all our suffering deserved? Is is punishment from God? Is there a point at which we should stop asking questions of God?
Yes, those are exactly the kind of questions that the Book of Job makes us confront. Why do bad things happen to good people? why do good things happen to bad people? Is all our suffering deserved? Is is punishment from God? Is there a point at which we should stop asking questions of God?
You are joking! Right?!
 
OK OK. God is a mean nasty killer. For no reason whatsoever he slaughtered Jobs 10 kids. He stole all of Jobs livestock then sat back and told Job how much He loved him. He stole and killed and then sat back to watch Job suffer...for entertainment. Ok. Now explain how LOVE works that way. Explain how LOVE will do that to teach anybody anything and not even have the brains to tell the victim what he is supposed to learn. That's my challenge to you.....I showed you how love works within the laws laid down.
God set everything to work within a set of laws and you think He worked outside those laws.....Teach me how He did that.
Is Mr Quantrilll correct? Does God employ a psychopatic moron like Satan to teach us good things? Or get revenge for God when we sin? Or maybe Satan is not really so bad?

Stop extrapolating towards the negative Brother Bendito!! :-)

Is it really killing when the Creator can make from children unto Abraham from rocks (Matthew 3:9)? In our mortal mind, and human concepts it may very well appear that way and how the world sees it, but with the renewing of our minds, Holy Spirit guidance we see past such limiting concepts. I mean think about this brother, or not too long anyway, because it truly blows me away when I spend much time on it.....Eternal Life!!! Even before that, one can look at the reality that is totally unacceptable to the World which is "God in the body of Jesus Christ crucified on the Cross, for a humanity that doesn't love Him in order to be reconciled to Him, God the Father."!!!!

Now don't be getting into the Laws and how God is constrained by them. Until we have all knowledge and know the limits of those same laws how can we in truth say that God is still not working within them? To do otherwise is to join those with similar notions like Member Ivar who states that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus!

However, Brother Hekuran has it right in his last post. Many questions to contemplate, and ultimately one that requires that we trust God to know what He's doing and that it's to our good.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Hello Brother,
In a matter of speaking Satan was saying to God that it was only the hedge of protection that was surrounding Job and not his free will that had him righteous and faithful to Him. We see what happens to Job as a test of his faithfulness to God as conditional to circumstances, while in a way it was Satan testing God on how much He actually knew of His own Creation. Testing God's knowledge base, or why would he believe he could defeat Him and take His position in the first place?

Sometimes I wonder if we fully trust God that He knows what He is doing, or unknowingly question like Satan, that He really doesn't know us? Which then tells me in thought concerning this story of Job if we believe that God not only has the knowledge and power to do as He wills, but does he have the right to do so, as it pertains to His Creation?

Your thoughts brother?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Hello, pleased to meet you.

It is hard to say what goes on in that malignant mind of satan. I know he wanted to be 'like' God and not 'greater' than God. Which means he knew there was no greater than God. But he is so opposed to God, that there is forever the constant antagonism until God destroys him.

Indeed, God has the right to do with us as he wills. Which is what He was teaching Job. Just like with Hudson Taylor who survived the massacre of many missionaries during the Boxer Rebellion I believe. Why did he live and others die? It is God's decision to do as He wills. Some believers live a life of blessing and wealth from God but others live lives of horrendous suffering. Why? It is God's will and He does with us as He wills.

Quantrill
 
Stop extrapolating towards the negative Brother Bendito!! :smile:

Is it really killing when the Creator can make from children unto Abraham from rocks (Matthew 3:9)? In our mortal mind, and human concepts it may very well appear that way and how the world sees it, but with the renewing of our minds, Holy Spirit guidance we see past such limiting concepts. I mean think about this brother, or not too long anyway, because it truly blows me away when I spend much time on it.....Eternal Life!!! Even before that, one can look at the reality that is totally unacceptable to the World which is "God in the body of Jesus Christ crucified on the Cross, for a humanity that doesn't love Him in order to be reconciled to Him, God the Father."!!!!

Now don't be getting into the Laws and how God is constrained by them. Until we have all knowledge and know the limits of those same laws how can we in truth say that God is still not working within them? To do otherwise is to join those with similar notions like Member Ivar who states that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus!

However, Brother Hekuran has it right in his last post. Many questions to contemplate, and ultimately one that requires that we trust God to know what He's doing and that it's to our good.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
Is it really killing when the Creator can make from children unto Abraham from rocks (Matthew 3:9) Notice Nick? It says He can...not that He does. As to the rest....Oh Brother You're spouting religion
 
Is it really killing when the Creator can make from children unto Abraham from rocks (Matthew 3:9) Notice Nick? It says He can...not that He does. As to the rest....Oh Brother You're spouting religion

You do know how to make me smile brother!!!
Tienes me amor por eternidad mi hermano en Cristo.
 
There is nothing to indicate that the conversation between God and satan was all that was said. That is all we are told. It was not a meeting of equals. The angels came presenting themselves before God. It was giving an account of their actions.

satan gave no accusation until God directed his attention to him. It was God all the way. There was nothing wrong with God bringing satan's attention to Job. There was nothing wrong with God being responsible for the sufferings Job incurred as a result.

As far as God's plan, when God moves, He never is doing just 'one thing'. He is doing many things. He increased Job's faith. satan was defeated in that Job never cursed God. Additional revelation is added that will eventually be recorded as Scripture.

Well, of course satan wanted to get to Job. he wants to get to all of God's people. Again, satan didn't bring up Job. God did. (Job 1:8) And God brought it up because He wanted to bring these sufferings upon Job.

I don't know why you say, 'but God said instead'. satan didn't ask to kill Job, though I'm sure he would have like to. he asked God to put forth His hand and afflict Job and he will curse you. God said, go ahead, but don't kill him. (Job 2:5-6)

At the very beginning of the book we see Job was concerned over his children. He worried over their relationship with God. (Job 1:2-5) Part of the sufferings God inflicted upon Job was that He had all his children killed. (Job 1:18-19) That was 7 sons and three daughters. (Job 1:2) When the afflictions were over, God restored Job twice as much as he had before. (Job 42:10) Check out the numbering of his livestock. (Job 1:3) Compare it to the restoration. (Job 42:12) Exactly doubled. But, (Job 42:13) says, "He had also seven sons and three daughters". But wait, that is exactly as many as he started with. How is that doubled? Because they live. God is showing Job his children live and are with him and He doubled Jobs children by giving him ten more. The very thing Job was worried over in chapter one, God has assured him it is alright.

I have no doubt God is managing and Jesus Christ is managing satan's attacks on us.

Quantrill

It isn't God's job to manage the Devil for us. It is ours.
James 4:6-10 (KJV)
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


Where in Genesis, the time slot for Job, did God teach Job or even Abraham such a principle? That is peculiar to the Church. There is no discussion in Genesis of matters of faith, what to do about fear for Job to learn by way of a patriarch to know the role of faith concerning fear. We have fear of man by animals, fear of God, men fearing men, and individual encounters with God saying not to fear. Where does God say fear is a sin?

Job knew 'the boys' were partying, which in itself was not described as sinful, but maybe you are thinking Job was concerned mostly over the boys having the girls over eating and drinking? That combination might have been of concern given they were not constrained by the Law of Moses. At no point did God indicate Job was in sinful fear for his children. He performed similar sacrifices as by Jewish priests centuries later who did those because people sinned and needed intercession, whether a particular individual was a friend of God and clean or failed. They did that by commandment from God. The priests didn't sacrifice out of fear that someone sinned.

So why would it be a sin for Job to do that, not willing to just let it go hoping they turned out in good standing with God? We as parents have spent the last 35+ years praying for our children from before they were born, our reasonable sacrifice. For that matter, I don't recall Abel's sacrifice being of fear, but was well accepted of God. The concept of obedience was the rule in Genesis, that of Abraham accounted as godly faith, well explained in the New Testament, but not the Hebrew Bible. It took the NT to explain adequately what that faith of Abraham was about, and is for us. But who else contemporary with Abraham had to do with faith? What I do find is fear and sacrifice. Abraham gave up Sarah in Egypt to the king out of recognition those people had no fear of God. It took a dream for that ruler to release her to Abraham untouched, God regarding the integrity of his heart in the matter.

Abraham's proved willingness to sacrifice Isaac while there was no lamb they hoped for was counted as "fearing God", not called faith then. We could at best define the old concept of faith as fearing God. Even after Israel had witnessed the miracles of their deliverance, God found them later in Deuteronomy as faithless, but were fearing God.

I'm thinking over your "I don't know why you say, 'but God said instead'. satan didn't ask to kill Job, though I'm sure he would have like to. he asked God to put forth His hand and afflict Job and he will curse you. God said, go ahead, but don't kill him. (Job 2:5-6".) Satan wanted God to do the deed, while God said it was in Satan's hand, only not to kill Job. Looking at the Hebrew there is no command from God to touch Job. He let Satan do it. God lets people and angels do lots of horrible things, not often having a hand directly in them except to write with His finger twice. When His hand was involved He commanded angels and men to do things like commanding Joshua to kill every human in Ai, keep the spoils, then burn it down.

God simply ignored Satan's request, issuing His own command to let Satan do the deed. I believe He could do that fairly without darkness, knowing the outcome before it happened.
 
My problem with that is what you said is definitely New Covenant talk for us, but not for them, then. The only character assassination was from the Liar in Chief. When God commended Job, he was commended, not accused by God.

Now, when we enter into fear, that is sin to Christians, so fear is not acceptable to God, for it displays unbelief. Jesus frequently admonished not to fear.

Again, there was no reference to "fear" in Job, for God said he was innocent.



Sorry that 'this' is out of context to the rest of the thread, but I really want to respond to this.

Fear is Not 'sin' to a Christian or anyone else. The context Of 'fear'. A healthy 'fear' of fire, for instance. Fearing fire Can save a life. We're usually taught as kids to 'not get too close to a fire, we Might get burned'. Getting burned is Painful.

Fear can Also end up being a 'phobia' of 'whatever' and that's usually not healthy. A fear of heights is going to keep us closer to the ground. Therefore less likely to fall and maybe break a bone.

Claustrophobia -- fear of closed in places. Like an elevator or a closet, etc.

But fear Can be a protection for a person. And, maybe a person would rather think of that as a strong dislike of something.

And Scripture says to 'fear God'. A better translation would be having a great deal of 'awe' for God. A feeling of 'awesomeness' towards God.

We are to be anxious for nothing. We Are to take everything to God in prayer.

No one will ever find me on a ledge of a window -- at least not on purpose. Or the edge of a cliff. And I won't be in the middle of a group of people. On the edge of the row and preferably in back.
 
OK OK. God is a mean nasty killer. For no reason whatsoever he slaughtered Jobs 10 kids. He stole all of Jobs livestock then sat back and told Job how much He loved him. He stole and killed and then sat back to watch Job suffer...for entertainment. Ok. Now explain how LOVE works that way. Explain how LOVE will do that to teach anybody anything and not even have the brains to tell the victim what he is supposed to learn. That's my challenge to you.....I showed you how love works within the laws laid down.
God set everything to work within a set of laws and you think He worked outside those laws.....Teach me how He did that.
Is Mr Quantrilll correct? Does God employ a psychopatic moron like Satan to teach us good things? Or get revenge for God when we sin? Or maybe Satan is not really so bad?


Do we know the spiritual condition of Job's sons? Maybe they were believers and he'd see them again in heaven. And animals are animals. They reproduce and can be replaced.

That which we're 'observing' is that even in the loss he experienced, he didn't get mad at God. Didn't he say something to the effect that 'God gives and God takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord'? And in the end, didn't he and his wife go on to have more kids and regained the lost livestock. We and those around him didn't see him getting mad at / blaming God for his losses. His wife, on the other hand, wanted him to 'lay down and die' didn't she.

Satan isn't really a psychopathic moron -- far from it. He's a liar ,though. He knows that his eternal destination is in hell and it won't be pretty for him. And he wants all the company possible. He wants people to think that once all of us dull, boring Christians are Gone that the 'rest of the world' is going to have a big party. No negative affects of all that 'fun'. And when 'they' find out the Real Truth -- he will laugh at them -- in the midst of his own pain and eternal suffering. The utter darkness of his world without God.

Satan has been doing everything possible to thwart God's plan for mankind and this world. From evolution to same-sex relationships and marriage and abortion.

@Dovegiven -- you'd brought up the horrible things that are happening to kids on the way up to this country. That God should be stopping all of that. Why does God permit horrible things to happen to innocent children. Well -- the holocost Also happened. There are those who wanted to pretend that That never happened to the Jews by the Germans. There Were a lot of people who Did survive. We have a hard time realizing that human beings can really act That way to fellow human beings. We are capable of treating others even worse than animals.

Maybe God is letting us observe that people Can and Do help each other in times of great distress. That the human spirit Can withstand a Lot.

God's original plan was to give Adam and Eve one 'law' to follow. There was a beautiful garden all set for them to enjoy and propogate. Everything was for them, except for the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. Then that serpent got in the picture. Were they going to obey God's Word or fall prey to satan. Well -- as they say -- the rest is 'history'.

With the knowledge of Good Comes Evil. People have the capacity of doing great, wonderful things for each other and then again -- doing great horrific things to each other.

But -- eternity Is in everyone's future. Believers have the New Jerusalem to look forward to.
 
Job 1:1; There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
Job 1:2; Seven sons and three daughters were born to him.

It seems Job was one of the few "blameless" people in the Bible. Who was fearing God and turning from evil.

Job 1:5; When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.

Job 1:6; Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7; The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
Job 1:8; The LORD said to Satan, Have you" considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
Job 1:9; Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:10; "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
Job 1:11; "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
Job 1:12; Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

I do have to say, reading this passage as is, it does appear that God is the one encouraging Satan to test Job.
Unlike some of the comments made here, I don't think God is trying to prove a point Job, nearly as much as He proves a point to Satan.

Job 1:22; Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Chapter two is much the same, it almost appears as if God Himself is egging Satan on to do these things.

Job 2:2; The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
Job 2:3; The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
 
It isn't God's job to manage the Devil for us. It is ours.
James 4:6-10 (KJV)
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


Where in Genesis, the time slot for Job, did God teach Job or even Abraham such a principle? That is peculiar to the Church. There is no discussion in Genesis of matters of faith, what to do about fear for Job to learn by way of a patriarch to know the role of faith concerning fear. We have fear of man by animals, fear of God, men fearing men, and individual encounters with God saying not to fear. Where does God say fear is a sin?

Job knew 'the boys' were partying, which in itself was not described as sinful, but maybe you are thinking Job was concerned mostly over the boys having the girls over eating and drinking? That combination might have been of concern given they were not constrained by the Law of Moses. At no point did God indicate Job was in sinful fear for his children. He performed similar sacrifices as by Jewish priests centuries later who did those because people sinned and needed intercession, whether a particular individual was a friend of God and clean or failed. They did that by commandment from God. The priests didn't sacrifice out of fear that someone sinned.

So why would it be a sin for Job to do that, not willing to just let it go hoping they turned out in good standing with God? We as parents have spent the last 35+ years praying for our children from before they were born, our reasonable sacrifice. For that matter, I don't recall Abel's sacrifice being of fear, but was well accepted of God. The concept of obedience was the rule in Genesis, that of Abraham accounted as godly faith, well explained in the New Testament, but not the Hebrew Bible. It took the NT to explain adequately what that faith of Abraham was about, and is for us. But who else contemporary with Abraham had to do with faith? What I do find is fear and sacrifice. Abraham gave up Sarah in Egypt to the king out of recognition those people had no fear of God. It took a dream for that ruler to release her to Abraham untouched, God regarding the integrity of his heart in the matter.

Abraham's proved willingness to sacrifice Isaac while there was no lamb they hoped for was counted as "fearing God", not called faith then. We could at best define the old concept of faith as fearing God. Even after Israel had witnessed the miracles of their deliverance, God found them later in Deuteronomy as faithless, but were fearing God.

I'm thinking over your "I don't know why you say, 'but God said instead'. satan didn't ask to kill Job, though I'm sure he would have like to. he asked God to put forth His hand and afflict Job and he will curse you. God said, go ahead, but don't kill him. (Job 2:5-6".) Satan wanted God to do the deed, while God said it was in Satan's hand, only not to kill Job. Looking at the Hebrew there is no command from God to touch Job. He let Satan do it. God lets people and angels do lots of horrible things, not often having a hand directly in them except to write with His finger twice. When His hand was involved He commanded angels and men to do things like commanding Joshua to kill every human in Ai, keep the spoils, then burn it down.

God simply ignored Satan's request, issuing His own command to let Satan do the deed. I believe He could do that fairly without darkness, knowing the outcome before it happened.

Well, yes, we have a role to play in our walk of salvation which involves resisting the devil at times. But we are in no position to manage the devil. The devil goes throughout the earth and in the heavens. How are you going to manage him? You resist him when he or his angels bring something in your lives. But even then it may not be the 'devil' himself. Probably just one of his angels or a demon. The devil cannot be everywhere at once as God is. It is God who manages the devil. He says, this far and no farther.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'fear'. I never said Job was guilty of fear or concern over his children. Others did, but not me.

Though there is no command to satan to afflict Job, God is the One who brought Job to satan's attention for the purpose of the affliction. (Job 1:8) He turned Job over to satan, knowing satan would afflict him. At first it was just that which Job had. (Job 1:12) Next it was Job himself, except his life. (Job 2:6) Yes, the evil angels do many horrible things we are not aware of. But God is. And in the book of Job the curtain is rolled back and we are given a view of the correspondence between God and satan concerning these events in Job's life. satan is not doing it to be obedient to God. he is doing it because he hates God and His people. God is not doing it because there is any evil in God. But He uses the evil to accomplish His purpose. Just as (Job 42:11) says. "...and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:..." Just as I pointed out earlier with (Is. 10:5-7).

I don't see how you say God ignored satan's request. He gave him exactly what he asked for, except Job's life. And satan did what God wanted, though not for the same reason. The afflictions were from God.

Quantrill
 
It's obvious that we are not talking about the same God though. Mine wouldn't do such things to His kids.

Sometimes dear brother it's not really about the kids but about God's will and purpose.
Example: John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Read this Dear Brother in a devotional by our Sister in Christ Lady Loves Jesus this morning and the verse reminded me of your post. Sometimes difficult to accept, even for me when I look at my wife and what she is going through. However, ultimately I look to it to be to the Glory of God! Alleluia!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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