Who Is The Old Man?

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

Wired 4 Fishen,

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Believers have the Spirit of God and still have flesh or old nature to deal with.

You are making the choice to reject scripture and cannot say you didn't know. I've posted these scriptures on several occasions. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but why disagree with baseless opinions? If you disagree with scripture and we let God's word confirm itself, there would be no division between believers. If there's no scripture but opinions flying around, Satan is being glorified.

The term "flesh" in the correct context of spiritual warfare is referring to Satan's influence he tempts believers with. Believers "do not" wrestle against flesh (against themselves) "in" the flesh. This is what scripture teaches.

Ephesians 6:12
For we (believers) wrestle "not" against "FLESH" and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (the devil's kingdom).

2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we "walk in" the flesh, we "do not" war after the flesh:

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Unbelievers have not the Spirit of God but the Spirit of man and dwell in the flesh.

I've never said unbelievers have the Spirit of God.

Wired 4 Fishen said:
When a believer gets over in the flesh they still have the Spirit of God in them and are still saved.
Blessings

You have not given me anything but your opinion. Your opinion is not of God according to scripture.

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Brother I do read what you write.

You said you do read what I write. If that is true, which I believe it is, Satan is blinding your mind from what scripture is saying. You still say believers are still in the flesh regardless of what scripture teaches. The flesh is dead and has no intellect of itself. Satan comes to make believers think they fight against themselves. By this lie Satan causes believers to speak against God's word. This is when blindness sets in and is strengthened.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being "DEAD" in your sins "AND" the uncircumcision of "YOUR FLESH", hath God quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

If you keep rejecting what scripture says you are strengthening your position in unbelief and blindness of what God's word says. You are not rejecting me or frustrating me because I didn't write this word and I'm not the Holy Ghost.

Wired 4 Fishen · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
The term "flesh" in the correct context of spiritual warfare is referring to Satan's influence he tempts believers with. Believers "do not" wrestle against flesh (against themselves) "in" the flesh. This is what scripture teaches.

Brother I say this with no disrespect but you really need to calm down and stop judging things or others that don't agree with your understanding of Scripture you use.

Flesh in a believer is the old nature or attitude etc.

We don't wrestle against flesh and blood meaning people or their actions but against the spirit behind it.

regibassman57 said:
You said you do read what I write. If that is true, which I believe it is, Satan is blinding your mind from what scripture is saying. You still say believers are still in the flesh regardless of what scripture teaches.

What I said was Believers can still get in the flesh. Flesh being attitude and actions

regibassman57 said:
I've never said unbelievers have the Spirit of God.

Please pay attention because I never said that you said that.

regibassman57 said:
You have not given me anything but your opinion. Your opinion is not of God according to scripture.

It's like these kind of sad remarks.
You spoke the above to this.
Wired 4 Fishen said:
When a believer gets over in the flesh they still have the Spirit of God in them and are still saved.
Blessings

Brother that is truth and not false anything.

Have a great day

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Wired 4 Fishen,

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Brother I say this with no disrespect but you really need to calm down and stop judging things or others that don't agree with your understanding of Scripture you use.

Flesh in a believer is the old nature or attitude etc.

We don't wrestle against flesh and blood meaning people or their actions but against the spirit behind it.

Brother Wired, as I said in the last post, I don't get frustrated where I need to be foolish and judge any man. If I said something to show you are speaking contrary to scripture and I show you the scriptures, I'm not judging you. If I show you scripture and you don't give me scripture to prove your point, and I say you are blinded for standing your ground without scriptural references, you are not seeing God's truth because you're not quoting God's truth. I don't agree with your opinions. Give me scripture and I will know if it's according to context or not; but your opinion is not according to context.

Wired 4 Fishen said:
What I said was Believers can still get in the flesh. Flesh being attitude and actions

Where in scripture does it teach a believer gets in the flesh?if scripture says believers are not in the flesh; show scriptures that contradict Romans 8:9.

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Wired 4 Fishen,

Wired 4 Fishen said:
When a believer gets over in the flesh they still have the Spirit of God in them and are still saved.
Blessings

Brother that is truth and not false anything.

Have a great day

I wanted to make sure you understand I just need scripture to confirm your opinion that "believers get in the flesh." there is no disrespect in asking this I hope?

Dovegiven · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
@Wired 4 Fishen,

I agree the old man is the old nature... Because this is a factual statement, does scripture teach a believer "is dead" to the old nature? If so what does that mean?

Dovegiven · Feb 7, 2019

The Old Man is the former mind we must be renewed from, to the mind of Christ. It is a process, like a potter desiring a certain outcome of a lump of clay, but not happy with the first attempt. He collapses the lump, wets it, and works it again. Whatever remains in a person of the old that is rejected of God must be reshaped, removed of imperfection. In practice, I know a potter sometimes reworks a lump until it contains little hardened lumps that just don't respond to efforts to conform it. It is then the whole lump is abandoned, replaced by a new lump. As long as the lump can be shaped, it is used. An Old Man can resist attempts of reform to it's destruction, or to submit to the glory of the potter.

Jesus used the example of a branch that doesn't produce fruit well. It is pruned, encouraged, then if not responding, usually through a growing season, it is cut off and burned up. The "sucker" branches are easily identified early on, given less consideration, the first to be removed and destroyed.

Dovegiven · Feb 7, 2019

It should mean that our new man agrees with the Spirit that the old man mind needs to be gone, needing to be replaced by the new man's mind that conforms to the mind of Christ. That agreement sets up a war of two worlds that didn't exist before the spiritual new man was birthed in the same physical body. The new man's spirit will then seek to cooperate to bring the old man's ideas to naught. It's like the remote Indian tribe that murdered any uninvited visitor to their island. It took time for them to reform, becoming Christians, and living the way of Christ.

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Dovegiven,

Dovegiven said:
The Old Man is the former mind we must be renewed from, to the mind of Christ.

I agree the "old man" is the former mind we must renew - "old "spiritual" mind" (Eph. 4:22-25). One of my favorite scriptures.

Dovegiven said:
It is a process, like a potter desiring a certain outcome of a lump of clay, but not happy with the first attempt. He collapses the lump, wets it, and works it again. Whatever remains in a person of the old that is rejected of God must be reshaped, removed of imperfection. In practice, I know a potter sometimes reworks a lump until it contains little hardened lumps that just don't respond to efforts to conform it. It is then the whole lump is abandoned, replaced by a new lump. As long as the lump can be shaped, it is used. An Old Man can resist attempts of reform to it's destruction, or to submit to the glory of the potter.

As always you come up with some beautiful ways of looking at a subject and I respect that. You "make" a person think outside the box. I enjoyed the analogy used and really liked that you made a point to warn of the destruction for those that resist the potter.

Dovegiven said:
Jesus used the example of a branch that doesn't produce fruit well. It is pruned, encouraged, then if not responding, usually through a growing season, it is cut off and burned up. The "sucker" branches are easily identified early on, given less consideration, the first to be removed and destroyed.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Dovegiven said:
The Old Man is...

I know I could agree with "Wired4Fishen" on many of his points, they are good points, but when the thought of the old man being dead came up, I only see things through the eyes of faith. If scripture says a believer is "dead to the flesh" or "old man"and it's spoken against without scriptural references, I'm not going to agree. I can look at things after the flesh and agree, but I choose not to justify a fleshly answer if the truth of scripture is not accepted first. You and I have disagreed, but if I could write like you, I wouldn't go through the changes I do on this forum. But I use it to practice in character and in conveying my message. Enjoyed how you expressed this post.

Wired 4 Fishen · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
Where in scripture does it teach a believer gets in the flesh?if scripture says believers are not in the flesh; show scriptures that contradict Romans 8:9.

Romans 9:8
But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God Living in you.

Big point here is you are not controlled by, that is if you have learned to walk in the Spirit.

As to the rest....it is easy to understand. If a believer needs to repent and ask some one to forgive them.....its because they got in the flesh first.

Wired 4 Fishen · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
"Wired4Fishen" on many of his points, they are good points, but when the thought of the old man being dead came up, I only see things through the eyes of faith.

If you were looking at the old nature being dead through faith then you would be looking to something that has not yet happened.

Wired 4 Fishen · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
If scripture says a believer is "dead to the flesh" or "old man"and it's spoken against without scriptural references, I'm not going to agree.

You believe it just is but scripture does not say that.
Its the power or dominion from the old nature that is dead. One still has to learn how to keep it dead and this is as long as they are in this earth suit called a body.

Dave M · Feb 7, 2019

Galatians 5:17
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Before we were saved were were slaves to the flesh, now that we are saved we are set free, but we have to fight the battle over the flesh Jesus gives us the power for victory now, , and as we mature it becomes easier to win the battle, be honest with yourself have you lost your temper since you were saved that is the flesh the old you popping up you lost that battle thats ok we win the war. You grow in the spirit it takes time. We are in a maturing process now, and it takes practice and discipline to become full time walkers in the spirit. Serve others put there needs in front of yours, study the bible all these are practices that help us mature and grow in the spirit.

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Wired4Fishen,

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Romans 9:8

But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God Living in you.

Big point here is you are not controlled by, that is if you have learned to walk in the Spirit.

As to the rest....it is easy to understand. If a believer needs to repent and ask some one to forgive them.....its because they got in the flesh first.

I looked through about 14 different commentaries and three agreed with this verse you posted. I don’t blame you, you are just reading what you believe to be truth; but this is why there is so much confusion and division with believers.

(ISV) You, however, are not of the flesh but under the control of the Spirit, since God's Spirit lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

(GW) But if God's Spirit lives in you, you are under the control of your spiritual nature, not your corrupt nature. Whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to him.

(CEV) You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him.

Below I posted the Greek definition for the word “IN” based on the context we’re discussing. I don’t see anything that even hint the word could mean “control” as in the other interpretations.

G1722 (IN)
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Wired4Fishen,

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Romans 9:8

But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God Living in you.

Big point here is you are not controlled by, that is if you have learned to walk in the Spirit.

As to the rest....it is easy to understand. If a believer needs to repent and ask some one to forgive them.....its because they got in the flesh first.

I believe the only way to confirm what the truth is, is to continue to let scripture speak for itself.

Rom 7:5 For when “we were in the flesh,” the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

(ISV) For while “we were living in the flesh,” sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies to bear fruit for death.

(GW) While “we were living under the influence of our corrupt nature,” sinful passions were at work throughout our bodies. Stirred up by Moses' laws, our sinful passions did things that result in death.

(CEV) When “we thought only of ourselves,” the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die.

The key word is “WERE” in the flesh or corrupt nature. King James is consistent in it’s interpretation of this study we’re having. ISV doesn’t seem to be.

These scriptures infer what Romans 7:5 teaches. They are past tense references just as the KJV plainly states.

Wired 4 Fishen · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
@Wired4Fishen,

I believe the only way to confirm what the truth is, is to continue to let scripture speak for itself.

Rom 7:5 For when “we were in the flesh,” the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

(ISV) For while “we were living in the flesh,” sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies to bear fruit for death.

(GW) While “we were living under the influence of our corrupt nature,” sinful passions were at work throughout our bodies. Stirred up by Moses' laws, our sinful passions did things that result in death.

(CEV) When “we thought only of ourselves,” the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die.

The key word is “WERE” in the flesh or corrupt nature. King James is consistent in it’s interpretation of this study we’re having. ISV doesn’t seem to be.

These scriptures infer what Romans 7:5 teaches. They are past tense references just as the KJV plainly states.

Scripture is very important but then understanding scripture is far better.

However many scriptures that are provided , when they are used with little to no understanding they do no one any good.

Dave M · Feb 7, 2019

@regibassman57 you have openly admitted you do wrong, whear do you think those wrong things come from???? they come from the flesh brother, certainly not the spirit. This applies to me and everyone on earth. so please dont think this is a personal attack nothing but love for people in the body of Christ,.

peace

Wired 4 Fishen · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
I looked through about 14 different commentaries and three agreed with this verse you posted. I don’t blame you, you are just reading what you believe to be truth; but this is why there is so much confusion and division with believers.

Brother your getting in the flesh. You believe your view is correct so you accuse me of not having good understanding.

This means you place your view above which is a fleshly act in itself.

Blessings

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Dave,

Dave M said:
Galatians 5:17
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

This is true… Who does scripture teach tempts a believer in the flesh? The believer doesn’t desire to do what the devil is tempting him or her to do. Paul said, it’s not more I that does it, but Satan/sin that dwells in me. The believer does not desire being forced to feel lust, anger, grief and fear which is all of the devil.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the “fiery darts of the wicked.”

G4448 (fiery)
puroō
From G4442; to kindle, that is, (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): - burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

The “wicked” one is the devil and the tempter that comes to us in anger, grief, lust and fear.

2Ti 1:7 For “God hath not given us the spirit of fear;” but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Anything contrary to a sound mind is from the devil.

Dave M said:
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

The spirit is willing… But my main point is believer do not fight against themselves. We fight against the devil and his kingdom.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, “we do not war after the flesh:”

Eph 6:12 For “we wrestle not” against “FLESH” and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Dave M said:
“but we have to fight the battle over the flesh” “have you lost your temper since you were saved that is the flesh the old you popping up you lost that battle thats ok we win the war.

We fight the battle against the devil as Ephesians 6:12 teaches.

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. “Resist the devil,” and he will flee from you.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to “stand against the wiles of the devil.”

We do not fight, stand against or resist against ourselves. We watch inside of ourselves and protect our peace. God told us not to let our hearts be troubled. This is the tempter job – to trouble our hearts.

regibassman57 · Feb 7, 2019

@Wired 4 Fishen,

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Scripture is very important but then understanding scripture is far better.

If you have the understanding, you should be able to tell me why the defintions in the Greek contradicts what you believe to be true? It says nothing about "control"... Refute the definitions. as well as Roman 7:5?

The understanding is in what the scripture says... Your understanding of the scripture (we are dwelling on) is, "we are still alive to the old nature." If a man is born again, he dies to the Adamic nature and comes alive to the nature of Christ. We know we have been "delivered" from the darkness of sin.

Col 1:13 Christ hath "delivered us" from the "power of darkness," and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

G4506 (delivered)
rhuomai
Middle voice of an obsolete verb, akin to G4482 (through the idea of a current; compare G4511); to rush or draw (for oneself), that is, rescue: - deliver (-er).

Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Wired 4 Fishen said:
However many scriptures that are provided , when they are used with little to no understanding they do no one any good.

You used a scripture that was not proven truthful and could stand up to other scriptural interpretations by the commentaries. When you tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, you are telling many other the same. I use scripture to confirm my point and disprove your use of scripture. Then you continue to give your opinion and not scripture after being proven wrong. Use scripture to debate, not your opinion. There's plenty of scripture to use. You’ve shown you reject 2Corinthians 5:17. But you’re telling me I use it with no to little understanding?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

G2937 (creature)
ktisis
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

Believers are a new creation because we have never lived in the context of our new life in Christ. We have been “born again” a second time and have never existed before because we were dead in sin.

By faith we understanding this, not by sight or intellect. Only by God's word.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:smile:

Dovegiven · Feb 7, 2019

regibassman57 said:
@Dovegiven,

I agree the "old man" is the former mind we must renew - "old "spiritual" mind" (Eph. 4:22-25). One of my favorite scriptures.

As always you come up with some beautiful ways of looking at a subject and I respect that. You "make" a person think outside the box. I enjoyed the analogy used and really liked that you made a point to warn of the destruction for those that resist the potter.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I know I could agree with "Wired4Fishen" on many of his points, they are good points, but when the thought of the old man being dead came up, I only see things through the eyes of faith. If scripture says a believer is "dead to the flesh" or "old man"and it's spoken against without scriptural references, I'm not going to agree. I can look at things after the flesh and agree, but I choose not to justify a fleshly answer if the truth of scripture is not accepted first. You and I have disagreed, but if I could write like you, I wouldn't go through the changes I do on this forum. But I use it to practice in character and in conveying my message. Enjoyed how you expressed this post.

Thank you brother for kindness of agreement concerning our scriptures.

I'm appreciative of the Lord's patience with me. It wasn't a happy day for Peter when Paul had to confront him for hypocrisy (Gal 2:11) , but when a brother sins the brethren have a duty to correct. Just when I think I have it all together it seems someone comes along to clip a feather occasionally. Anyway, let's stay being wise as serpents, harmless as doves with the world. Also, I try to keep in mind among the brethren
Philippians 2:14-16 (KJV)
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

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