Acts2:38 said:

To clarify, I mean Christians, those who are in a saved state by obedience to the gospel. Thats why I keep putting "" around spiritual kingdom. Since Christ mentioned his "kingdom is not of this world", among other scriptures.

Kingdom was used interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19, with church. The church IS the kingdom. Just this fact alone conflicts with Israel being Gods chosen kingdom now days. Does God have 2 kingdoms at one time? Or did he state one kingdom is to come Daniel 2:44 for example? (I'm assuming for a moment you are not in the "premillennialist belief")

The kingdom is the church, the church is the people who obey the gospel (Christians ie John 3:3 & 5).

Church isnt the building. It is the people. The Greek word for church is ekklēsia. Strongs G1577.

I really honestly dont see where God says there are two kingdoms for us today, one being physical and the other spiritual. I see a OT past physical one, but now a "spiritual" one. A "kingdom not of this world".

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If we're going to get technical the church is a gathering of believers. When those who believers separate they are not a church. Ekklesia is literally a gathering. I think you're conflating things. I didn't say Israel was God's chosen kingdom. They are God's chosen people. The Jews had the Kingdom. Jesus told the Pharisees that it would be taken from them. That was a physical kingdom. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this Kosmos. The word Kosoms means an arranged system and is sometimes translated world. I doesn't mean earth. Jesus' Kingdom is not of this worldly system. That doesn't mean it's not a physical kingdom. The word spiritual is an adjective, it simply gives qualities of the noun it's modifying, in this case kingdom. I would be helpful if you'd explain what you think those qualities are.

Yes, I did say that. Jew is not really a race of people but a religion. Hebrew or "Israelites" is the people, Jew is the religion. Hence when Paul states along the lines of Galatians 3:28.

The Israel now days is clearly Jewish religion. Would you agree?

Jewish religion is suppose to follow the OT laws right? However, Christ blotted out the old, and gave a new one.

Basically, being Jewish, is a slap in the face to Christ. However, being a Christian is obeying the gospel. You are neither Jew nor Greek, but Christian in Christs kingdom.

So who are the chosen?

A group of people who hold to an OT law that is not perfect and has been abolished or....

A group of people who obey the gospel and the new covenant promise?

Only one answer is right, and those are the chosen, the people in Christs kingdom. The other is in disobedience and not in a saved state. Therefore, not a chosen elect people.

Lastly, I did prove the point but you failed to see it.

Abraham was not Jewish. He was not an Israelite. Abraham was told of the gospel promise. The gospel promise is for everyone. It stands to reason that if Abraham was told of the gospel promise to come, long before the 10 commandments was established, then it did indeed prophecy the gentiles to be saved etc.

Genesis 12:1-3 - All the families of the earth includes gentiles wouldn't you say?

Galatians 3:8 - God foresaw, gave the gospel to Abraham, foreseeing that he would justify the "heathen". Gentiles that is. Through faith. And all nations will be blessed.

All nations includes everyone on earth right? Not just Israel?

So you can see that this promise was made LONG before Israel was the "chosen physical kingdom" as Abraham was 500 plus years before Israel became a nation and had the 10 commandments and tabernacle and such.

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No, you've gone outside of the context of the OP to try to make you're case. I said that God had a plan to redeem mankind and that plan included a man named Abraham. That statement shows that I acknowledged that God had predetermined to redeem all of mankind. That's basically the argument you are making. As you see, I acknowledged that in the first post you quoted. However, that's not what my OP is about. In the OP I said that there are two lines of thought regarding Predestination. One, that God chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world and two, that God knew before hand who would believe and choose them. Then I asked if anyone could prove either of these from Scripture. In the first post you addressed I laid out how both of these idea are wrong and said that Predestination in the Bible refers to Israel. You've gone around that Bible showing how the Gentiles were in God's plan before Israel existed to make your case. However, as I said, that was already acknowledged. The post wasn't about whether or not the Gentiles were included from the beginning, it was that in the Bible Predestination is about Israel. The word Predestinate is in the KJV 6 times, four of those refer to people and all four of those occurrences are about Israel. This you haven't refuted.

You suggested that I misunderstood Romans 9, yet when I further explained it , it seems you ignored that and moved on. In Ephesians 1 Paul states that they were predestined to adoption and in Romans 9 says that the adoption belongs to Israel. Thus, they were the ones predestined to adoption. Do the Gentile also have the option to be adopted? Yes, it has been extended to the Gentiles. However, that doesn't change the fact that it belongs to the Israelites.

Again, in Romans 11 Paul lays out how the Gentiles are grafted into the natural olive tree. He says that some of the natural branches have been broken off that the Gentiles as wild branches may be grafted in. It's your contention that Israel is done away with. What then are the Gentiles grafted into?

According to you its not a thing. God lives outside of time. You live in it.

Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure "

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This is just an arbitrary statement. I've already acknowledged that God knows what He will do in the future. What you haven't established is whether or not God knows today what you will think 6 months from now.

Butch5 said:

What you haven't established is whether or not God knows today what you will think 6 months from now.

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Then I guess God is not Omniscient (know everything!)

Psa 139:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
Psa 139:3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

I always have great concern for anyone who thinks God can not do something, If you listen to a lot of the big false teachers out there they put limits on God, I herd one recently say God is charge of everything, but not in control. Very sneaky the way they apply this nonsense to God the almighty.

this is the start of false teaching, and needs to be put in check

, God can do anything. He can not sin other then that God can do anything.

How can you believe in God and not think he can see the future??

Dave M said:

I always have great concern for anyone who thinks God can not do something, If you listen to a lot of the big false teachers out there they put limits on God, I herd one recently say God is charge of everything, but not in control. Very sneaky the way they apply this nonsense to God the almighty.

this is the start of false teaching, and needs to be put in check

, God can do anything. He can not sin other then that God can do anything.

How can you believe in God and not think he can see the future??

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Firstly no one said God couldnt do something. The question was can it proven from Scripture? Then there is the question can God create a rock so large He cannot lift it?

However, you just contradicted yourself. You said,

"I always have great concern for anyone who thinks God can not do something, If you listen to a lot of the big false teachers out there they put limits on God".

Then you put limits on God and said He cannot do something.

There is nothing wrong with questioning everything.

Butch5 said:

There is nothing wrong with questioning everything.

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"Answers" are only the results of "questions"

Butch5 said:

If we're going to get technical the church is a gathering of believers. When those who believers separate they are not a church. Ekklesia is literally a gathering. I think you're conflating things.

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Agreed, but I kindly suggest, by your postings, the point is going over your head.

But as to conflating in a negative sense, I disagree. For example, the bible states in Luke 13:3 if dont repent you will perish. This implies that if I do, I am saved. So in the one single verse it doesnt say anything about believing or confessing or being baptized. Does that mean I dont have to do those things, just repent? No, you look at other scripture and come to the conclusion that ALL are needed to be saved. Because the bible is not contradictory of itself and because you cant just read and cherry pick one verse and ignore others one must read the bible as a whole, and come to conclusion. Cherry picking is dangerous. It ignores scripture elsewhere to support an idea that scripture does not state.

Butch5 said:

Jesus said His kingdom was not of this Kosmos. The word Kosoms means an arranged system and is sometimes translated world. I doesn't mean earth. Jesus' Kingdom is not of this worldly system. That doesn't mean it's not a physical kingdom.

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To conflate scripture, I come to the conclusion it is not physical. Not at all.

Luke 17:21 For example. It is also referred to as the kingdom of God, the Kingdom of heaven also. Heaven is always referred to as a non physical place. And so Paul rightly states 1 Corinthians 15:44.

Butch5 said:

In the first post you addressed I laid out how both of these idea are wrong and said that Predestination in the Bible refers to Israel.

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Your OP is as follows and I quote:
"Some say that God chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world and some say that God, through foreknowledge, knew before hand who would choose to believe and chose these. My question is can anyone prove either of these statements from the Scriptures?"

So in reply I placed post #7 in addition to replying to your post #6. You must have been slightly confused trying to follow post #7 up with your main point because I was also replying to other information you placed in post #6.

However, the information I gave proved that one stance was right. "that God through foreknowledge, knew before hand who would CHOOSE to believe".

The rest of the information I put in post #7 was discussing with you EXTRA information you placed in post #6.

Butch5 said:

You've gone around that Bible showing how the Gentiles were in God's plan before Israel existed to make your case. However, as I said, that was already acknowledged.

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Butch5 said:

The post wasn't about whether or not the Gentiles were included from the beginning, it was that in the Bible Predestination is about Israel. The word Predestinate is in the KJV 6 times, four of those refer to people and all four of those occurrences are about Israel. This you haven't refuted.

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Yes, I know. That was the very reason i kept bringing it up. You say you agreed but it was going over your head. I suppose maybe I was not explaining myself very well.

The very meaning of "predestined" is that things are determined in advance. Right?

The verses I kept repeating states such.
Genesis 12:1-3 and Galatians 3:8

God predestined Jew and Gentile. Just because he didnt specifically use the word "predestined" doesnt mean its not so. Genesis 12 and Galatians 3 literally state that God had "determined in advance" for this to happen. Its undeniable.

This goes hand in hand with the OP question and your post #6.

You literally said
So, when you see people debating this, just know that both sides are are wrong. Post #6

I said one side is correct, the one that states "God through foreknowledge knows who will choose to believe or not". In which case lead to verses like Isaiah 46, Psalms, and others. You are under the impression that God only knows what, and I quote, "He will do in the future", contradicting you belief that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

So is he all those or is he not? If he is all those, then he knows what you, me, He, and everyone will do. If you say God doesnt know what you and I will do in 6 months, then God is not all the "omnis". You cant say he is, then say he doesnt know what you and I will do. Its a contradiction to what Omni"""" really is.

Omnipotent - All powerful
Omnipresent - Present, in all places, at all times. He is not bound by time and can be present in the past, present, and future.
Omniscient - All knowing

You cannot possibly say "God only knows what He will do, but not what we will do in 6 months". You are taking away what omni's mean.

Butch5 said:

You suggested that I misunderstood Romans 9, yet when I further explained it , it seems you ignored that and moved on. In Ephesians 1 Paul states that they were predestined to adoption and in Romans 9 says that the adoption belongs to Israel.

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Apologies. I didn't mention it further because I felt as though we wouldn't get anywhere with that. So I tried other avenues. However, you do realize that Ephesus is a Greek settlement and comprised of Gentiles? Paul is speaking to Gentile Christians there. Christians all the same but past gentiles non the less. Furthermore Paul states in Ephesians 1 that God chose them since the foundation of the world. Who is them? Christians. Those who would be saved. Those who would choose salvation.

Butch5 said:

I've already acknowledged that God knows what He will do in the future. What you haven't established is whether or not God knows today what you will think 6 months from now.

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Yes, I know you stated such. However, you contradict the "omnis" very meaning by stating that God doesnt know what you and I will do in 6 months as I previously mentioned here.

Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure "
This verse does NOT rule out knowing ALL things from God himself to you and I.

The Psalmists also support such. If it were not true, then God would not have placed those scriptures there.


All in all, my stance still stands, with evidence, that God has indeed foreknown all who choose to believe or not.

I leave it at that and I thank you for your time with me.

Butch5 said:

However, you just contradicted yourself. You said,

"I always have great concern for anyone who thinks God can not do something, If you listen to a lot of the big false teachers out there they put limits on God".

Then you put limits on God and said He cannot do something.

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I see you heart has been exposed here, you are here to divide, not unite, thanks for making that clear

Dave M said:

I see you heart has been exposed here, you are here to divide, not unite, thanks for making that clear

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Not at all. Your post implied that I was bringing false teaching. I simply pointed out that you were doing the very thing you were complaining about. Pointing out error in ones reasoning is not for division. It's iron sharpening iron.

[URL='https://bible.faithlife.com/bible/nlt/[URL='https://bible.faithlife.com/bible/nlt/Acts2.38']Acts2.38[/URL]'][URL='https://bible.faithlife.com/bible/nlt/Acts2.38']Acts2:38[/URL][/URL] said:

Agreed, but I kindly suggest, by your postings, the point is going over your head.

But as to conflating in a negative sense, I disagree. For example, the bible states in Luke 13:3 if dont repent you will perish. This implies that if I do, I am saved. So in the one single verse it doesnt say anything about believing or confessing or being baptized. Does that mean I dont have to do those things, just repent? No, you look at other scripture and come to the conclusion that ALL are needed to be saved. Because the bible is not contradictory of itself and because you cant just read and cherry pick one verse and ignore others one must read the bible as a whole, and come to conclusion. Cherry picking is dangerous. It ignores scripture elsewhere to support an idea that scripture does not state.

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I didn't miss your point. I simply didn't address it because it has nothing to do with my post. Again, my post is not whether or not God had included a way for the Gentiles in the beginning. My post is about the Bible's use of predestination. When the Bible speaks of predestination it's not about people being saved as is asserted in the Predestination debates that go on between Christians. The word, when associated with people, in the Scriptures is always associated with the Israelites. In the debates both sides quote Scripture passages that use the word Predestinate to claim that God chooses who will be saved. That is NOT how the Scriptures use the word. That is my argument. Not whether or not God included the Gentiles in His plan from the beginning. That argument is really a Red Herring.

To conflate scripture, I come to the conclusion it is not physical. Not at all.

Luke 17:21 For example. It is also referred to as the kingdom of God, the Kingdom of heaven also. Heaven is always referred to as a non physical place. And so Paul rightly states 1 Corinthians 15:44.

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Yes, It's called the Kingdom of God and of the heavens. Notice the word "of" that's there because the words God and the heavens are in the genitive case in Greek. It literally means the Kingdom belonging to God or the kingdom belonging to the heavens. It doesn't say that kingdom "In" the heavens. When Jesus was on earth He said to the Jews that the kingdom was at hand. He also told them that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a people being the fruits thereof. The Jews had an earthly kingdom. Jesus said it would be taken from them. He didn't say there would another kingdom for the Christians. You even said you didn't see two kingdoms. The kingdom the Jews had was physician and Jesus was giving it, the same one, to someone else.

You say it's a spiritual kingdom. The would spiritual is an adjective, it modifies a noun, in this case kingdom. An adjective describes some qualities of the noun it is modifying. The word spirit in the Bible is translated from the Greek and Hebrew words that mean wind. So, the word spiritual would have the qualities of wind and would be applied to kingdom. Given that, can you explain to me what a spiritual kingdom is? Because if it's not physical then we need to know what it is.

Your OP is as follows and I quote:
"Some say that God chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world and some say that God, through foreknowledge, knew before hand who would choose to believe and chose these. My question is can anyone prove either of these statements from the Scriptures?"

So in reply I placed post #7 in addition to replying to your post #6. You must have been slightly confused trying to follow post #7 up with your main point because I was also replying to other information you placed in post #6.

However, the information I gave proved that one stance was right. "that God through foreknowledge, knew before hand who would CHOOSE to believe".

The rest of the information I put in post #7 was discussing with you EXTRA information you placed in post #6.

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You didn't. I reread the post just to double check and you gave nothing that suggests that God chooses people to be saved. "It stands to reason" isn't evidence, it's an opinion. But again, that whole post missed the point of my original post which was that the Bible doesn't use the word predestinate of God choosing who will be saved.

Yes, I know. That was the very reason i kept bringing it up. You say you agreed but it was going over your head. I suppose maybe I was not explaining myself very well.

The very meaning of "predestined" is that things are determined in advance. Right?

The verses I kept repeating states such.
Genesis 12:1-3 and Galatians 3:8

God predestined Jew and Gentile. Just because he didnt specifically use the word "predestined" doesnt mean its not so. Genesis 12 and Galatians 3 literally state that God had "determined in advance" for this to happen. Its undeniable.

This goes hand in hand with the OP question and your post #6.

You literally said
So, when you see people debating this, just know that both sides are are wrong. Post #6

I said one side is correct, the one that states "God through foreknowledge knows who will choose to believe or not". In which case lead to verses like Isaiah 46, Psalms, and others. You are under the impression that God only knows what, and I quote, "He will do in the future", contradicting you belief that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

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Again, I didn't address it because it doesn't address the post. You say one side is right, but you've not proven that. You claim that because God is all knowing He knows what everyone will choose. Ok, lets grant that. You still haven't proven that He chose anyone based on their choosing to believe. Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where God decided that Johnny will be saved?

So is he all those or is he not? If he is all those, then he knows what you, me, He, and everyone will do. If you say God doesnt know what you and I will do in 6 months, then God is not all the "omnis". You cant say he is, then say he doesnt know what you and I will do. Its a contradiction to what Omni"""" really is.

Omnipotent - All powerful
Omnipresent - Present, in all places, at all times. He is not bound by time and can be present in the past, present, and future.
Omniscient - All knowing

You cannot possibly say "God only knows what He will do, but not what we will do in 6 months". You are taking away what omni's mean.

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I didn't say it. Maybe reread the post? I said, I don't think you can prove that from Scripture. I said that I wasn't saying you're wrong, just that I don't think you can prove that from Scripture. So again, can you prove from Scripture that God knows what you will deiced 6 months from now?

I'm not taking anything away. Your thoughts 6 months from now don't exist. They are not thing. When you say God knows everything, I think what you really mean is God knows all and every possibility that could every happen. That's not what omniscient means. It means to know everything, The key word here is thing, not possible things. If I said I know everything about my truck, would that mean I know that a tire will go flat 3 months from now? So, for clarification, is your claim that God know all things, or all possible things. If it's all possible things could you please prove that from Scripture.

Apologies. I didn't mention it further because I felt as though we wouldn't get anywhere with that. So I tried other avenues. However, you do realize that Ephesus is a Greek settlement and comprised of Gentiles? Paul is speaking to Gentile Christians there. Christians all the same but past gentiles non the less. Furthermore Paul states in Ephesians 1 that God chose them since the foundation of the world. Who is them? Christians. Those who would be saved. Those who would choose salvation.

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No apologies necessary. I would submit that In Ephesians Paul makes a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. In the first two chapters he is telling them what God has done for the Jews and how the Gentiles are included in that. When Paul says God chose them before the foundation of the world he is speaking of the Jews, not Christians. We can see this from his use of first and second person plural pronouns, us/we/our and you/your. And unless there is any confuse he makes it clear in chapter 1 verse 12 and in the end of chapter 2. This was my whole point in post number 7. This post is long so I won't explain all of it this post. However, I've explained in this commentary Ephesian 1

Yes, I know you stated such. However, you contradict the "omnis" very meaning by stating that God doesnt know what you and I will do in 6 months as I previously mentioned here.

Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure "
This verse does NOT rule out knowing ALL things from God himself to you and I.

The Psalmists also support such. If it were not true, then God would not have placed those scriptures there.


All in all, my stance still stands, with evidence, that God has indeed foreknown all who choose to believe or not.

I leave it at that and I thank you for your time with me.

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No, I didn't contradict myself. As I stated above, omniscient means to know all things. possibilities are not things. This passage too, speaks of Gods council. Of course God knows everything He will do. You said,

"If it were not true, then God would not have placed those scriptures there."

This is an argument from silence.

You may believe your stance is valid, but I still don't see where you've proven that God knew who would believe and chose them on that basis. As I pointed out above, even granting you that God knows all possibilities, which He may, I don't know, you still didn't prove that God chose people on that basis. God said that whosoever believes may have aionios life. He left it open to all. Where does it say He chose this one or didn't choose that one?

Curtis said:

Then I guess God is not Omniscient (know everything!)

Psa 139:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
Psa 139:3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

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I thought you might have something here with verse 4. If that is a good translation of the text it would seem to be good evidence to show that God does know future decisions. However, when I looked at it, it seems only few modern translations use it. I looked at the Greek and Hebrew texts and neither has the words "even" or "before"

Butch5 said:

I thought you might have something here with verse 4. If that is a good translation of the text it would seem to be good evidence to show that God does know future decisions. However, when I looked at it, it seems only few modern translations use it. I looked at the Greek and Hebrew texts and neither has the words "even" or "before"

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Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Curtis said:

Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

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Odd you have to defend God to a person claiming to be a believer, you got some sharp Iron @Curtis that is for sure brother !!

Dave M said:

Odd you have to defend God to a person claiming to be a believer, you got some sharp Iron @Curtis that is for sure brother !!

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Dave,

How is he defending God? You said I came here to divide and yet your posts have these little innuendos in them. I want to believe their just inadvertent, but I'm starting to wonder.

Dave M said:

Odd you have to defend God to a person claiming to be a believer, you got some sharp Iron @Curtis that is for sure brother !!

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Brother, I learned a long time ago that if I want answers, then I will have to ask God for the answers to my questions. If we ask not we will have not.
You like all of us here should try and give answers to those who are looking for the "right" answers. It is really called spiritual warfare in casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

I think it all depends on the one who is seeking, that will find it.

Curtis said:

Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

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Some of these could be evidence that God knows future thoughts. It's a little fuzzy though. Like Mark 9:4. The word translated "knowing" is the Greek word eido or oida. They mean to see or to know by perceiving something. It could mean that Jesus perceived their thoughts.

Likewise Psalm 94:11 God knowing the thoughts of men could be a general statement. God knows that the heart of man is evil. If it's evil his thoughts would be evil.

I don't think the others really address the issue. But those two could be evidence. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Another reason I wonder is because of statements that God has made. For instance, God told Abraham to take Isaac and give him as an offering. God stopped Abraham, but He said,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen. 22:12 KJV)

God says, "for now I know". The implication there is that He didn't know before. Now, I'm not saying this seals the deal. I'm just wondering. When we look at the passages you posted and them passages like this we have to somehow reconcile them. This is why I have this question.

Butch5 said:

Some of these could be evidence that God knows future thoughts. It's a little fuzzy though. Like Mark 9:4. The word translated "knowing" is the Greek word eido or oida. They mean to see or to know by perceiving something. It could mean that Jesus perceived their thoughts.

Likewise Psalm 94:11 God knowing the thoughts of men could be a general statement. God knows that the heart of man is evil. If it's evil his thoughts would be evil.

I don't think the others really address the issue. But those two could be evidence. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Another reason I wonder is because of statements that God has made. For instance, God told Abraham to take Isaac and give him as an offering. God stopped Abraham, but He said,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen. 22:12 KJV)

God says, "for now I know". The implication there is that He didn't know before. Now, I'm not saying this seals the deal. I'm just wondering. When we look at the passages you posted and them passages like this we have to somehow reconcile them. This is why I have this question.

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If man really knew that the Lord God they have fellowship with knows what you are going to say and do before you say it, or do it why say, or do anything at all if he already knows? God talks to man as if he is one of us. The Lord God moves upon man to either cause him to say, or do certain things so he can work on thier behalf.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I know this because Jesus said.......

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Abraham believing in the Word of God he could do nothing!

Butch5 said:

They mean to see or to know by perceiving something. It could mean that Jesus perceived their thoughts.

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We have to always remember Jesus in his human nature grew in wisdom, but in his divine nature, he knew all things. There were some things Jesus did not know which he did not need to know if he was not going to share it or use it to benefit others.

Butch5 said:

Some of these could be evidence that God knows future thoughts. It's a little fuzzy though. Like Mark 9:4. The word translated "knowing" is the Greek word eido or oida. They mean to see or to know by perceiving something. It could mean that Jesus perceived their thoughts.

Likewise Psalm 94:11 God knowing the thoughts of men could be a general statement. God knows that the heart of man is evil. If it's evil his thoughts would be evil.

I don't think the others really address the issue. But those two could be evidence. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Another reason I wonder is because of statements that God has made. For instance, God told Abraham to take Isaac and give him as an offering. God stopped Abraham, but He said,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen. 22:12 KJV)

God says, "for now I know". The implication there is that He didn't know before. Now, I'm not saying this seals the deal. I'm just wondering. When we look at the passages you posted and them passages like this we have to somehow reconcile them. This is why I have this question.

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Abrahams' actions were showing his inner faith. God was allowing Abraham to show his faith in God. Abraham was showing God that he was willing to give his son, Isaac back to God even though he was the child of promise. Abraham was not being defiant . And Isaac was allowing his father to sacrifice him. Isaac was old enough to know what that custom was. So it was an example to Isaac that his father was willing to obey God no matter What it meant personally.

Curtis said:

We have to always remember Jesus in his human nature grew in wisdom, but in his divine nature, he knew all things. There were some things Jesus did not know which he did not need to know if he was not going to share it or use it to benefit others.

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I don't believe in hypoststic union.

The hypostatic union means that Jesus is both God and man in nature. And, yes.