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Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

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Thank you @Butch5 That's a really interesting answer. I can see that it takes the continuity of Old and New covenant seriously. I'm going to look into it further and consider it carefully.

While I do, can I ask where you first came across this interpretation? For my further reading. Thanks.
HI Hekuran,

You're welcome! I first came across it about 10 years ago from a pastor in Florida. There's more to it than just what I posted. That was a stripped down version. I also didn't post a crucial passage at the end. After saying that Jesus was the promised seed Paul goes on to say,

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:26-29 KJV)

Paul says that if you are baptized into Christ then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. The promise was ultimately to the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their seed which is Christ. So, the promise is to Christ and Paul says that if you belong to Christ then you too are the seed of Abraham and an heir to the promise.

It does take the continuity of the Old and New covenants seriously. That is the basis of everything I believe. This is how I've come to understand the Scriptures. The hope of every believer is the promise that God made to Abraham, as we from Paul. I see the Bible as a cohesive whole rather than two separate covenants. God started a process in Genesis and is carrying it through to Revelation. It's there and can be seen, the problem is that we're not taught it and we're taught to proof text the Bible instead of studying it as a whole.

There used to be much more on this on the website but it's gone through changes. Here is a link to a short article on the subject


Here is a longer article that I have written that addresses the subject.


I'll look and see what else I can find, I have a lot of audios that aren't currently on the web.
 
I clicked into the 4winds ministry -- it's a cult. It's an off-shoot of something. Maybe Armstrongism.

Either a person is born Again or they aren't.
 
I clicked into the 4winds ministry -- it's a cult. It's an off-shoot of something. Maybe Armstrongism.

Either a person is born Again or they aren't.
I didn't give a link to Four Winds Ministry.
 
It puts everything in the area of technical or non-technical terms.

Anything that draws a person away From the basics of salvation is a cult. or puts a twist on what Is in Scripture.

Looked it up -- finally found out -- the errors of Chilaism.

That which doesn't 'feel' right usually Isn't. And I'm not referring to emotional 'feel' right. It's that the Holy Spirit is giving a person a warning feeling that something just isn't 'right'.

So -- No Thanks
 
It puts everything in the area of technical or non-technical terms.

Anything that draws a person away From the basics of salvation is a cult. or puts a twist on what Is in Scripture.

Looked it up -- finally found out -- the errors of Chilaism.

That which doesn't 'feel' right usually Isn't. And I'm not referring to emotional 'feel' right. It's that the Holy Spirit is giving a person a warning feeling that something just isn't 'right'.

So -- No Thanks
Well, you haven't even had time to listen to anything so I know your position isn't well founded. There is no "errors of Chilaism". What there are are erroneous modern teachings. Chilaism is the earliest Christian beliefs about the Kingdom of God. It is all through the writings of the first Christians. People claim it's in error because it doesn't fit with today's beliefs in Greek philosophy about going to Heaven. If you'd study it instead of reading some article by someone who doesn't like it, you'd see that it is Biblically sound, unlike the Heavenly Destiny claim, and is what the earliest Christians believed.

Those who seek the truth will investigate those who don't will make excuses.
 
Here is a quote from Irenaeus. Irenaeus was a disciple of a man named Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Here is the Christian hope.

In that flesh in which the saints have suffered so many afflictions, they shall receive the fruits of their labours; especially since all creation waits for this, and God promises it to Abraham and his seed.

1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum ); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.”


2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains stedfast. For thus He said: “Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even for ever.” And again He says, “Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee;” and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: “I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates.” If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”[12]


Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
 
I cannot believe, for almost 2000 people in the institutional church is still arguing about a term called “born again”, it looks like there are over 50 different definitions of what it means. That is sad, sad, sad. I am glad I am “born from above” and a “New Creature” created in Christ Jesus”. And not by my will.
 
I cannot believe, for almost 2000 people in the institutional church is still arguing about a term called “born again”, it looks like there are over 50 different definitions of what it means. That is sad, sad, sad. I am glad I am “born from above” and a “New Creature” created in Christ Jesus”. And not by my will.
Of the 50 or so interpretations, which do you think Jesus had in mind in his conversation with Nicodemus?
 
I've been thinking over your posts @Butch5. I agree with the way you've presented the theme of the 'seed' throughout the old testament, and how Jesus fulfils what the Israelites failed to.

But in not convinced that this is what Jesus was indicating in his conversation with Nicodemus.

And I think that the distinction 'born again for Jews, and 'born of God' for the rest of us is too narrow. My main objection is that Jesus says 'no man' can see the Kingdom of God.... He could have said 'No Israelite...' if that's what he meant.

Anyway, it's given me plenty to think over. Thank you for taking the time to present it so clearly.
 
I've been thinking over your posts @Butch5. I agree with the way you've presented the theme of the 'seed' throughout the old testament, and how Jesus fulfils what the Israelites failed to.

But in not convinced that this is what Jesus was indicating in his conversation with Nicodemus.

And I think that the distinction 'born again for Jews, and 'born of God' for the rest of us is too narrow. My main objection is that Jesus says 'no man' can see the Kingdom of God.... He could have said 'No Israelite...' if that's what he meant.

Anyway, it's given me plenty to think over. Thank you for taking the time to present it so clearly.

Your welcome! Let me give you a few more tidbits to chew on. Let's look at this from the point of Nicodemus, a Jew. The Jews were looking for a Jewish Messiah, not necessarily a world savior. Remember, Jesus had said that He had only come to the Jews. So, the whole context of the conversation was Jewish. If He had only come to the Jews and said that no man can see the kingdom unless he was born again, Nicodemus would understand that as a Jewish kingdom. Not necessarily a world wide kingdom. In that context he would understand any man as any Jewish man. Remember, at this point the Gospel hadn't gone to the Gentiles yet, so the Jews wouldn't have any reason to think that Jesus was including the Gentiles.

Another point is one that I've made before. The phrase born again is only used 3 times in Scripture. Twice to Nicodemus, a Jew, and once by Peter in writing to the Jews. Nowhere in Scripture is it said that Gentiles are born again. Paul never says it of Gentiles. Notice what Peter says,

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Pet. 1:23 KJV)


A second birth after a first birth,

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)


But notice what Peter said prior to this.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,1 (1 Pet. 1:3 KJV)


Remember Peter is writing to the Jews of the Diaspora. He says that God had begotten them again. This is a second birth by God. Remember the first, "Israel is my son, even my firstborn".

One more thing. John is the one who recorded Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, so he was well aware of the born again statement, yet in his epistle which was written to Gentiles he uses the term born of God and not born again.

I think if we're going to say that the phrase born again refers to the Gentiles we need to establish what the first birth is.
 
I think if we're going to say that the phrase born again refers to the Gentiles we need to establish what the first birth is.

Galatians 3:27-29 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
"THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed according to the promise."

"Without the Spirit ye are none of his."

I think I can glean that to be baptized in the Holy Ghost is the necessary part of being born again, from above, of the Spirit etc.. same meaning. First birth is accomplished
by all when they are separated from their mothers womb by God.

1 Tim 1:4 " Neither give heed to fables and ENDLESS GENEALOGIES, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."

Do any of us know whether or not we actually have Hebrew lineage and does it matter? NO!
 
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