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Losing your salvation?

Brother-Paul said:
Greetings

I agree there are a number of verses that state or imply the OSAS.

So the question I ask is, whey is there confusion over this?

Without a full study on the OSAS verses vs the falling away, and similar verses, which refer to people who were Christians and no longer practice the faith or leave it completely I personally am not sure, comments welcome. But what I think could be the case in this situation is:

People thought they were saved but were not, they didn't have the Holy Spirit so belonged to sin, the world and the devil and therefore is wasn't hard for satan to tempt them back to the old worldly sinful ways.

But they were adamant they were saved and fell away, may be they were, but doesn't mean they were saved.

But scripture tells us, we can tell a tree by it's fruit, so true, but if the growing tree hasn't got fruit yet we cannot tell whether the fruit will be good fruit or bad fruit, so they are wolves in sheeps clothing, appearing as angels of light but still belong to, sin, the world and the devil.

If the Holy Spirit abides in a persons heart, they know they are born again, they thirst for the Word, if a person doesn't thirst for The Word, they will thirst for the world and all that belongs to the world. There are many attend places of worship, for a top up of the spirit so to speak, enough to run till next week, once they leave the place of worship they are back to worldly ways, when they return next week they put in sheeps clothing for an hour or so.

OSAS is the Truly Born Again from above believers who take up there cross daily, feed on the Lord and The Word in their hearts with thanksgiving, Praise God every day, they know they are His and He knows they are His sheep.

Shalom
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I am in agreement with most you say but you stated something I think is on one of the root problems with anti- OSAS....you said" we can not tell". If this means what I think it does....it doesn't matter what "we" think, that is pride talking...God does the thinking in this matter.
Two points:!
1. Being saved...there are plenty of verses that confirmed to me what happened, other than that, all I can say, is you just know.
2. OSAS...God is absolute perfection and there is no imperfection in him, more so than we could possibly understand. GOD has a purpose in our salvation and if he saves us, we are saved!
 
Born Again 2004 said:
I am in agreement with most you say but you stated something I think is on one of the root problems with anti- OSAS....you said" we can not tell". If this means what I think it does....it doesn't matter what "we" think, that is pride talking...God does the thinking in this matter.
Two points:!
1. Being saved...there are plenty of verses that confirmed to me what happened, other than that, all I can say, is you just know.
2. OSAS...God is absolute perfection and there is no imperfection in him, more so than we could possibly understand. GOD has a purpose in our salvation and if he saves us, we are saved!
Click to expand...


Scripture tells us we can tell a tree by it's fruit, yes. We both agree.

But a babe in Christ, doesn't know much in The Word, they have to learn, yes. We both agree.

But then this babe, a new tree, cannot show fruit yet, it is just a small tree. If there is no fruit showing yet then we cannot tell by it's fruits.

Now this new babe in Christ, may appear to be a babe in Christ, but may not be, this person may be in sheep's clothing, trying to look good amongst the brethren to be accepted. We need to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Eventually fruit will show, then as scripture says, we will be able to tell the tree by it's fruits, but until there is fruit we cannot be sure.

It doesn't have to be a babe in Christ either, it could be a new member, it could be a slow learner, we just have to wait, give them time, eventually the true fruits always show.

Some may appear to be saved, some may say they are saved souls, then they fall away, to me that shows they were never saved in the first place, so OSAS is sure for those truly born again, but if those who fall away were never saved they never fell away.

Hope I am making sense here my friend.
 
OK. Here's a real-world (true) scenario. I'm sure its content is familiar to many people here.

Sometimes I think we get into a mess because we read the New Testament letters as if they are theological text books rather than pastoral letters written to help churches deal with the problems they encountered. We end up using energy on abstract debates rather than practical wisdom.

One of the people who was fundamental in helping me to mature in my faith no longer follows Jesus. At one time he prayed for me, gave good advice, and spurred me on in my faith. He modelled a good Christian life and I'm convinced that there was nothing insincere about his faith at the time. But he gradually grew cold in his own faith and now says he no longer believes at all.

What wisdom can we pick up from the Bible that will help us understand what has happened to my friend and to others like him?
 
Hekuran said:
Sometimes I think we get into a mess because we read the New Testament letters as if they are theological text books rather than pastoral letters written to help churches deal with the problems they encountered. We end up using energy on abstract debates rather than practical wisdom.
Click to expand...

Even if they are "theological texts", I see nothing that supports OSAS.
 
I can only speak for myself regarding salvation. It had nothing to do with being taught by another person, I found Jesus in a small new testament thrown across a room to me. In it I met the man Jesus and he's been teaching me, along with the apostle Paul and other apostles ever since. I can't say I am enamoured by any modern day teachers, as they all seem to disagree with one another and have different slants on scripture, but I find that scripture itself, is constant and can be relied upon. I am called to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, this I do. When things don't work for me (computers, my car etc..), I explode with expletives, I have no control over this, it is my nature, I often wonder if a true Christian would use this kind of language and this causes me my fear and trembling. However, I do experience the Spirit of God and that keeps me in hope, but I'm never complacent, God is Almighty and I am not. The only salvation I am concerned with is my own, this I work out with fear and trembling. When I share the gospel, I have no interest in leading people to Jesus, because no one led me and I can never be sure that the person I shared the gospel with's name is written in the book of life, if it isn't then I'd be wasting my time, the best I can hope, is that the seed I planted landed in good soil. The only people I can judge by their fruit, are those who claim to have knowledge, others could be, like me, shedding of the old chrysalis before emerging as the butterfly.
 
Brother-Paul said:
Scripture tells us we can tell a tree by it's fruit, yes. We both agree.

But a babe in Christ, doesn't know much in The Word, they have to learn, yes. We both agree.

But then this babe, a new tree, cannot show fruit yet, it is just a small tree. If there is no fruit showing yet then we cannot tell by it's fruits.

Now this new babe in Christ, may appear to be a babe in Christ, but may not be, this person may be in sheep's clothing, trying to look good amongst the brethren to be accepted. We need to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Eventually fruit will show, then as scripture says, we will be able to tell the tree by it's fruits, but until there is fruit we cannot be sure.

It doesn't have to be a babe in Christ either, it could be a new member, it could be a slow learner, we just have to wait, give them time, eventually the true fruits always show.

Some may appear to be saved, some may say they are saved souls, then they fall away, to me that shows they were never saved in the first place, so OSAS is sure for those truly born again, but if those who fall away were never saved they never fell away.

Hope I am making sense here my friend.
Click to expand...
Again, it does not matter what " they say", that is up to God! Again, it is what He says and if He says you are saved...you are saved. You can only "fall away" from where you have never been!
 
Hekuran said:
OK. Here's a real-world (true) scenario. I'm sure its content is familiar to many people here.

Sometimes I think we get into a mess because we read the New Testament letters as if they are theological text books rather than pastoral letters written to help churches deal with the problems they encountered. We end up using energy on abstract debates rather than practical wisdom.

One of the people who was fundamental in helping me to mature in my faith no longer follows Jesus. At one time he prayed for me, gave good advice, and spurred me on in my faith. He modelled a good Christian life and I'm convinced that there was nothing insincere about his faith at the time. But he gradually grew cold in his own faith and now says he no longer believes at all.

What wisdom can we pick up from the Bible that will help us understand what has happened to my friend and to others like him?
Click to expand...
It's a hard one Hekuran, my son is the same, he was our music minister, he called us to write our own personal worship choruses then he put them to music and his own are wonderful, but he eventually drew away. While he was with us he moved strongly in the Spirit, but still he drew away. I've kept in my heart the scriptures ' teach your children how they should live and they will remember it all their life.' Proverbs. And Hebrews 'I will never leave you or forsake you.' That was nineteen years ago, most of that time he has lived abroad. He phoned us recently asking for prayer for his wife, the Lord answered it within a couple of days and she was clear, I believe and pray things might be changing. If your friend was moving in the Spirit, the Lord won't leave him.
 
Hekuran said:
OK. Here's a real-world (true) scenario. I'm sure its content is familiar to many people here.

Sometimes I think we get into a mess because we read the New Testament letters as if they are theological text books rather than pastoral letters written to help churches deal with the problems they encountered. We end up using energy on abstract debates rather than practical wisdom.

One of the people who was fundamental in helping me to mature in my faith no longer follows Jesus. At one time he prayed for me, gave good advice, and spurred me on in my faith. He modelled a good Christian life and I'm convinced that there was nothing insincere about his faith at the time. But he gradually grew cold in his own faith and now says he no longer believes at all.

What wisdom can we pick up from the Bible that will help us understand what has happened to my friend and to others like him?
Click to expand...


He was knowledgeable in the world, meant to believe, thought he did, the Bible has more moral values than anything else, scripture says pray so we pray, but if it is not from a regenerated heart it is no different to any pastor, doing the job because they are a caring people, but if not born again they are not saved.

I cannot say this is the case with this person, neither of can be sure, but we know someone who does know.

Maybe the clue is in the statement 'He modelled a good Christian life', we don't know we can only pray for him and his salvation brother.
 
Brother-Paul said:
He was knowledgeable in the world, meant to believe, thought he did, the Bible has more moral values than anything else, scripture says pray so we pray, but if it is not from a regenerated heart it is no different to any pastor, doing the job because they are a caring people, but if not born again they are not saved.

I cannot say this is the case with this person, neither of can be sure, but we know someone who does know.

Maybe the clue is in the statement 'He modelled a good Christian life', we don't know we can only pray for him and his salvation brother.
Click to expand...
What I was after was any insight from the Bible on a typical situation like this
 
Hekuran said:
OK. Here's a real-world (true) scenario. I'm sure its content is familiar to many people here.

Sometimes I think we get into a mess because we read the New Testament letters as if they are theological text books rather than pastoral letters written to help churches deal with the problems they encountered. We end up using energy on abstract debates rather than practical wisdom.

One of the people who was fundamental in helping me to mature in my faith no longer follows Jesus. At one time he prayed for me, gave good advice, and spurred me on in my faith. He modelled a good Christian life and I'm convinced that there was nothing insincere about his faith at the time. But he gradually grew cold in his own faith and now says he no longer believes at all.

What wisdom can we pick up from the Bible that will help us understand what has happened to my friend and to others like him?
Click to expand...
Whose to say he was really saved to start with; only God truly knows! I would like to think we all know that there are Head Christian's and Heart Christian's and we all know the difference. I would safely say that some Head Christian's know much about Christianity than I do but only a Heart Christian is truly saved. Philippians 1:6.....I believe that a Born Again Christian can never fall away to apostasy.
 
Hekuran said:
Why does this question about salvation tend to bring out the nastiest side of Christians?
Click to expand...

It is the subject that has caused to most arguments here on TJ by a long ways. Several threads on this subject have been shut-down over the years.

Still, I like your question... what about the Jimmy Swaggert's Jim Baker's, Ray Boltz's, Ted Haggard's, Jonathan Steingard's and many many others of the world?
I've known a number of people that used to be in ministry.. missionaries, preachers, pastors that have quit the faith. Some of these people I knew quite well.
They didn't believe anything differently from what I believe.

What about the Saul's (OT), Solomon's, Judas's and Ananias's of the Bible?
 
Hekuran said:
Why does this question about salvation tend to bring out the nastiest side of Christians?
Click to expand...
Nasty?
Pretty simple to me, if you don't believe God and his word....what else do you believe in but self and your own works. Why is that Nasty? Since when is expressing yourself with a person who you have debated this issue for years and using no profanity is Nasty? You either believe in salvation by Grace or Works, why is that Nasty, because you disagree with me?
 
Last edited:
B-A-C said:
It is the subject that has caused to most arguments here on TJ by a long ways. Several threads on this subject have been shut-down over the years.

Still, I like your question... what about the Jimmy Swaggert's Jim Baker's, Ray Boltz's, Ted Haggard's, Jonathan Steingard's and many many others of the world?
I've known a number of people that used to be in ministry.. missionaries, preachers, pastors that have quit the faith. Some of these people I knew quite well.
They didn't believe anything differently from what I believe.

What about the Saul's (OT), Solomon's, Judas's and Ananias's of the Bible?
Click to expand...
Why is OSAS so distasteful to you?
 
Born Again 2004 said:
Whose to say he was really saved to start with; only God truly knows! I would like to think we all know that there are Head Christian's and Heart Christian's and we all know the difference. I would safely say that some Head Christian's know much about Christianity than I do but only a Heart Christian is truly saved. Philippians 1:6.....I believe that a Born Again Christian can never fall away to apostasy.
Click to expand...
When it gets down to dealing with the messiness of real life situations, the whole debate doesn't offer much that's of use. People do fall away from the faith. I'm sure we've all seen it. Jesus was aware of it - see the parable of the sower.

Those who believe that salvation can't be lost - that once Jesus has you in his grip, he'll never let go - will conclude that someone who falls away never really belonged to Jesus in the first place.

It's simpler to explain for those who don't take the I was view.

But both sides are left with a great element of uncertainty. Paul even seems to hedge his bets with Timothy. See 2 Timothy 1:5.

5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also.
 
Hekuran said:
When it gets down to dealing with the messiness of real life situations, the whole debate doesn't offer much that's of use. People do fall away from the faith. I'm sure we've all seen it. Jesus was aware of it - see the parable of the sower.

Those who believe that salvation can't be lost - that once Jesus has you in his grip, he'll never let go - will conclude that someone who falls away never really belonged to Jesus in the first place.

It's simpler to explain for those who don't take the I was view.

But both sides are left with a great element of uncertainty. Paul even seems to hedge his bets with Timothy. See 2 Timothy 1:5.
Click to expand...
I have said it just recently, to not believe in OSAS is to not understand how perfect God is! There is no uncertainty as far as I am concerned, if God says you are saved, you are saved. If you were to fall away, where can you go where God isn't?
 
Hekuran said:
OK. Here's a real-world (true) scenario. I'm sure its content is familiar to many people here.

Sometimes I think we get into a mess because we read the New Testament letters as if they are theological text books rather than pastoral letters written to help churches deal with the problems they encountered. We end up using energy on abstract debates rather than practical wisdom.

One of the people who was fundamental in helping me to mature in my faith no longer follows Jesus. At one time he prayed for me, gave good advice, and spurred me on in my faith. He modelled a good Christian life and I'm convinced that there was nothing insincere about his faith at the time. But he gradually grew cold in his own faith and now says he no longer believes at all.

What wisdom can we pick up from the Bible that will help us understand what has happened to my friend and to others like him?
Click to expand...


Was the person you mention 'Saved' Born again from above truly saved???

1 John 2:18-19 (NKJV)
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 
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