complete said:

your use of Matthew 4:17 and Luke 13:5 are not suitable verses to quote as proof texts for this, for those words were spoken to Israel as a nation,

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An absolute lie of Satan.

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

There is no different rules or different dispensations for Jews. We all get saved the same way, by the same rules.

complete said:

You are not taking into account the times in which Hebrews was written or the nature of the relationship God had with them. I have not referred to 'Jewish sins' or 'Gentile sins' that is your doing. Please, do not be so quick to dismiss what I have said, for your own sake.

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For my sake? By saying this you are admitting this can happen.

Which is more dangerous...
I believe I can lose my salvation.. but I can't. What's the danger in this?
I believe I can't lose my salvation, but I can.

There are literally dozens of verses (not just in Hebrews, or even that Jesus Himself said) that say we can lose our salvation.

B-A-C said:

An absolute lie of Satan.

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

There is no different rules or different dispensations for Jews. We all get saved the same way, by the same rules.

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@B-A-C said:-
For my sake? By saying this you are admitting this can happen.

Which is more dangerous...
I believe I can lose my salvation.. but I can't. What's the danger in this?
I believe I can't lose my salvation, but I can.

There are literally dozens of verses (not just in Hebrews, or even that Jesus Himself said) that say we can lose our salvation.

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Hello @B-A-C,

How dare you attribute my words to Satan!

You are misapplying my words to suit yourself, I do not play by those rules. So I will bid you 'goodbye'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

complete said:

How dare you attribute my words to Satan!

You are misapplying my words to suit yourself, I do not play by those rules. So I will bid you 'goodbye'.

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Would you rather I said "This is an absolute lie from Chris"?

I've noticed whenever people can't support their view in scripture, they don't want to play anymore.

The simple fact is... EVERYTHING Jesus said in the gospels applies to everyone. Even us Gentiles.

B-A-C said:

It's OK, I'm not offended in the least. Many people call Jesus a legalist.
But no, I not perfect, and I don't believe perfection is required to be saved.

In fact if you go back and read the first two posts in this thread, that's what I'm saying. Stumbling is OK.
Practiced, willful, habitual sin is not.

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Of course, the offended part goes for you too, but it was meant for @Dave M !

To say Jesus is a legalist , is to say God is a Legalist. Maybe before His crucifixion, He was the most Legalist because no one upheld the Old Testament perfectly, no other!

But, the mere fact that He died on the Cross , He ushered in the New Covenant, salvation by Grace alone. At that instant,, the vail was ripped open and God left the temple; to dwell in each Believer's heart.

At, which point, Jesus WAS not a Legalist!

Born Again 2004 said:

@Sue D. Is correct, we are born into sin; what we try to do about it , makes all the difference.

As usual, @B-A-C , always uses verse like the above to prove that God demands perfection, but, as usual, he is wrong: God does not demand perfection, He expects it!

God is the only perfect one and in ways we just can't comprehend, at best, we sin in ways we don't even know!

Sure Jesus says " Go and sin no more"...that is a command and is an expectation , not a demand.
He knows we are not perfect, not yet, and that is why He did what He did.

All of this is for Believers. And, as believers, we " Hate the sin but love the sinner".
And, that is the difference, Believers, always dislike their sin and strive to do better...a Non-believer could care less; he doesn't even recognize sin, much less, strive to do something about it!

I think using Bible verses to support a premise that we are commanded to be sinless is an affront to God! The mere thought that we can be perfect is a sin in itself.

Yes, we are born sinners but , we Believers, understand that God came down to get inside us, correct that problem and eventually glorify us in His presence, someday in the future, when we enter his Kingdom, perfect!

Regarding sin, we believers recognize it and strive to do better but give God and His Grace all the credit and none of us!

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the point is that we should not be living in sin as a lifestyle, yes we are human and may stumble, but will repent and get right

Born Again 2004 said:

In the eyes of the beholder! I believe that @B-A-C , and for a LONG time, is a Legalist. If you feel diferently, that is your business, but He and I have been at this for years. I tried to understand, but come to the same conclusion.

You take a snippet out of context. In your effort to differ and wish to protect him. The real issue is I don't think God means that we MUST be perfect but, rather, He expects it.

From years of discussion with , B-A-C, I have found that he believes that , once saved, you must be flawless, that striving for excellence won't work. If you feel otherwise, that is your opinion.

This has been going on for over 10 years but I will reframe from reffering to him any further!
If I have offended you, please accept my heart felt apology!
Joe

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hey Joe I have also known Ray for years and can say I disagree with you, respectfully.

But do you not think we are changed when we become born again?

DO you not think we are freed from the enslavement of sin that once had control over our life?

Born Again 2004 said:

To say Jesus is a legalist , is to say God is a Legalist.

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I actually agree with that statement.

Born Again 2004 said:

no one upheld the Old Testament perfectly,

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Gen 6:9; These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Job 1:8; The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

Luke 1:5; In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Acts 10:1; Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10:2; a blameless man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Was Jesus a legalist?

Dave M said:

the point is that we should not be living in sin as a lifestyle, yes we are human and may stumble, but will repent and get right


hey Joe I have also known Ray for years and can say I disagree with you, respectfully.

But do you not think we are changed when we become born again?

DO you not think we are freed from the enslavement of sin that once had control over our life?

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Yes we are changed but that is for God to determine, not man!

Yes, we are, more importantly, freed from the consequences of sin ,which is Spiritual Death . The most agregest sin ( according to man) we don't wanteninly do any more after salvation but I would think we need to be cautious here, because God sees all sin, even the ones we don't see!

We are changed of course , our attitude towards God, but Jesus died to satisfy God for all the sins, even the ones we don't acknowledge to Him!

Born Again 2004 said:

Yes we are changed but that is for God to determine, not man!

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Is this predestination?

Born Again 2004 said:

Yes, we are, more importantly, freed from the consequences of sin ,which is Spiritual Death

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But doesn't the Bible also say we are freed of the slavery of sin, we are freed of sins bidding?
Does it say if we keep sinning we are slaves of sin? How is that freedom to sin? Slavery isn't freedom.

Born Again 2004 said:

because God sees all sin, even the ones we don't see!

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So does that mean, because I see that I have sin in my life, I should just keep on doing it?

Born Again 2004 said:

but Jesus died to satisfy God for all the sins, even the ones we don't acknowledge to Him!

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Do you have scripture for this?

I can give you some scriptures that say if we choose to keep practicing sin after being saved, Jesus's sacrifice no longer covers us.
I can give you scriptures that say after we are washed by the blood we can get dirty again.
I can give you scriptures that say it's possible to fall short of the grace of God.
I can give you scriptures that say "IF" we confess ours sin He will forgive us.

Let us see which side has more scriptural support?

Born Again 2004 said:

Yes we are changed but that is for God to determine, not man!

Yes, we are, more importantly, freed from the consequences of sin ,which is Spiritual Death . The most agregest sin ( according to man) we don't wanteninly do any more after salvation but I would think we need to be cautious here, because God sees all sin, even the ones we don't see!

We are changed of course , our attitude towards God, but Jesus died to satisfy God for all the sins, even the ones we don't acknowledge to Him!

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it seems to me what you are saying is that is legalistic is actually obedience,

so I really think we can get to the the heart of the matter with a simple question, do you think we are to be as obedient to Gods word as possible?? or does it matter??

B-A-C said:

Is this predestination?



But doesn't the Bible also say we are freed of the slavery of sin, we are freed of sins bidding?
Does it say if we keep sinning we are slaves of sin? How is that freedom to sin? Slavery isn't freedom.



So does that mean, because I see that I have sin in my life, I should just keep on doing it?



Do you have scripture for this?

I can give you some scriptures that say if we choose to keep practicing sin after being saved, Jesus's sacrifice no longer covers us.
I can give you scriptures that say after we are washed by the blood we can get dirty again.
I can give you scriptures that say it's possible to fall short of the grace of God.
I can give you scriptures that say "IF" we confess ours sin He will forgive us.

Let us see which side has more scriptural support?

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That is all good and w

Dave M said:

it seems to me what you are saying is that is legalistic is actually obedience,

so I really think we can get to the the heart of the matter with a simple question, do you think we are to be as obedient to Gods word as possible?? or does it matter??

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Why of course!!!! SURE it matters and to the one with whom it counts most, God...not any man.

BUT , as long as I can remember , I have
always contended that we, as Born Agian Christians...acknowledge sin and non- believers do not.

BUT, we Christians, as long as we are physically alive, will not be perfect like God, therefore sin in ways that we can not comprehend.

But, Jesus died so we can be justified by His righteousness while human and live...that carries is into eternity .
I have always felt this way and some agree and there are those who take fault with this concept; they are the ones I seem to irritate and get into trouble with!

B-A-C said:

Would you rather I said "This is an absolute lie from Chris"?

I've noticed whenever people can't support their view in scripture, they don't want to play anymore.

The simple fact is... EVERYTHING Jesus said in the gospels applies to everyone. Even us Gentiles.

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I am not taking sides in this issue, its been argued for a long long long long time, I have my own belief that will remain so until the Lord tells me otherwise, I "know" we are to be HOLY, not only because of the blood of Christ, but because our actions should cry out to a fallen world that "Look, this works, I am not a hypocrite"

But that being said, sometimes I dont play anymore, not based on scriptural support or lack of, but simply because scripture tells us so. Not to argue about things that are less important. The need to be right and the need for others to always see us as right is a trap that I prefer not to fall in. Topics that have some support in scripture from "opposing" real christian people, means to me, "get off your high horse and accept that with some things, the Holy Spirit must teach us, for we are not complete in knowing all."

B-A-C said:

Can we be set free of sin? Does sin have to be our master after we are saved?
Can we be "born again" without the propensity to sin?

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Am getting caught up with some posts -- because we're human -- we'll Always have that propensity For sinning. Being born again won't change that.

A person who believes they can reach / achieve sinless perfection here on earth is probably going to be guilty of a bit of pride in the process. They will have an evil thought creep into their brain and well on it.

There Are those who believe that there are sins of ommission. That which a person doesn't do -- not in a sinfull way -- sitting home instead of Out doing something.

Gotta run.

Sue D. said:

Am getting caught up with some posts -- because we're human -- we'll Always have that propensity For sinning. Being born again won't change that.

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The entire purpose of being born again, is to lose the sinful nature, die to the old self and become a new creation in Jesus.

Sue D. said:

A person who believes they can reach / achieve sinless perfection here on earth is probably going to be guilty of a bit of pride in the process. They will have an evil thought creep into their brain and well on it.

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You're missing the whole point of the post here. "Pre-meditated sin". Go back and read the first 2 posts.
No one mentions sinless perfection.

Sue D. said:

A person who believes they can reach / achieve sinless perfection here on earth is probably going to be guilty of a bit of pride in the process.

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I think the secret here is realizing we can't do it on our own. It's only through Jesus and the cross.
Paul said he didn't want to boast in himself, but he was perfectly willing to boast in the cross.

If we are able to reach that state, we wouldn't boast in ourselves, we would boast in the cross.
And if we never do stop sinning... what can we boast in the cross about?

@ B-A-C -- was Paul boasting about his ability to be free from sinning? and yes he was very willing to boast in the cross.

B-A-C said:

The entire purpose of being born again, is to lose the sinful nature, die to the old self and become a new creation in Jesus.



You're missing the whole point of the post here. "Pre-meditated sin". Go back and read the first 2 posts.
No one mentions sinless perfection.

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The entire purpose of being born again?! The end result will be heaven rather than hell. And growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wanting to live for Christ rather than only thinking about ourselves. The Holy Spirit coming to indwell a person gives them a New 'center'.

Pre-planned compared to non-planned but 'it' happened.

The insinuation seems to be that it's possible to live a sinlesly perfect life. Which I don't happen to believe Is possible. Coming close but entirely there.

Sue D. said:

The insinuation seems to be that it's possible to live a sinlesly perfect life. Which I don't happen to believe Is possible. Coming close but entirely there.

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..and yet the Bible says some people did this.

Luke 1:5; In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Gen 6:9; These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Job 1:8; The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

Act 10:1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Act 10:2 a righteous and blameless man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was righteous and pleasing to God.

I don't believe people can walk on water... but at least a couple did.
I don't believe the sea can part the waters and make dry land between them, but the Bible says it happened.
I don't believe two loaves of bread and a fish can feed 15,000 people, but the Bible says it happened.
Can these things still happen today? Or is God dead?

Gen 17:1; Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.

Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why would Jesus tell people to do this, if they couldn't do it?

===================================================

This thread has gotten pretty side-tracked here.

1. I am not perfect.
2. We may not have to be perfect to enter the kingdom of God.

But even so... I think it's unbiblical to say we can't live sinlessly after receiving Jesus.

2Cor 10:5; We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,


There is a difference between "stumbling" and planned sins.
There is a difference between stumbling and living in sin.
Neither of those statements have anything to do with being perfectly sinless.

@B-A-C -- One thing that caught my attention as far as living sinlessly is concerned -- "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" A person's thought-life is the one thing that no one else can see -- only God can.

Getting frustrated with the COVID thing and now the vaccine 'thing'. That's a sin, too?

You'd commented that you're married -- are you a perfect husband? Maybe you Are. Is your wife a perfect wife? Maybe in your eyes' she is.

When you stub your toe on something and it Hurts -- do you 'God bless this 'whatever'" and 'God bless my hurting toe' ? Probably sounds silly, but.......

Lots to think about, to be sure. Being perfectly sinless -- good to aim For

Sue D. said:

You'd commented that you're married -- are you a perfect husband? Maybe you Are. Is your wife a perfect wife? Maybe in your eyes' she is.

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Have I ever sinned since I became a Christian.. yes.
Has my wife ever sinned after being a Christian? surely.

There is a secular song by a country western group - It's called "Close enough to perfect". I would say it describes how I see my wife.
I saw a bumper sticker years ago - it said "Your spouse is the person who sees you, the way you think you still look". A lot of truth in that.
My wife may not be perfect, but she's as close to a Proverbs 31 woman as I have ever seen.
I am a very blessed man. I get a lot of compliments about my wife. The ways she looks, sure. But more so the example she sets.

Again, I have never claimed to be sinless and perfect.
But I can tell you, neither of us walk in willful sin. Neither of us do those "pet sins" that used to control us. You can believe this or not... but we truly truly have overcome those things that used to make us slaves to sin.
There is a particular sin (actually more than one) that I used to do almost everyday. Even after I was a Christian I did it for years. God told me I couldn't keep doing it.
I took a lot of time, prayers, effort, tears, and a few failures. But I can stand here and tell you with God as my witness, I haven't done those particular sins in almost 2 decades.
We can overcome.