Beetow said:

Restored to life as it was, or restored to life as it is now?
_

Click to expand...

When Jesus was raised from the dead, He still had the same body that died...Remember when He met Mary and she wanted to hug Him? He said "Don't touch me because I have not ascended to the Father yet" A short time later He did ascend and when He came to the disciples in the room, He had His glorified body, and could pass right through a wall....and other things....

.

Admon Mikha'el said:

when He came to the disciples in the room, He had His glorified body

Click to expand...

The apostle John was with Jesus the duration of forty days after his corpse was
restored to life. At no time did John see Jesus' glorified body; and if he didn't see it,
then neither did anybody else.

• 1John 3:2-3 . . What we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that
when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Admon Mikha'el said:

pass right through a wall....and other things....

Click to expand...

Christ was virgin-conceived, walked on water, restored withered limbs, put the
lame up on their feet, cured the blind, the deaf, and the mute, healed leprosy,
multiplied loaves and fishes, converted water into wine, controlled the weather,
instantly reattached a severed ear, revived the dead, dried up a fig tree, etc.

What's one more miracle, more or less? Passing through stone? Walking through
doors and walls? Disappearing? Reappearing? How hard could any of that really be
for a man like Jesus with the powers of God at his disposal?

NOTE: Of all the miracles that Jesus performed; in my opinion the most remarkable
of all was his own resurrection. (John 2:19-22)
_

Beetow said:

.


The apostle John was with Jesus the duration of forty days after his corpse was
restored to life. At no time did John see Jesus' glorified body; and if he didn't see it,
then neither did anybody else.

• 1John 3:2-3 . . What we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that
when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


Christ was virgin-conceived, walked on water, restored withered limbs, put the
lame up on their feet, cured the blind, the deaf, and the mute, healed leprosy,
multiplied loaves and fishes, converted water into wine, controlled the weather,
instantly reattached a severed ear, revived the dead, dried up a fig tree, etc.

What's one more miracle, more or less? Passing through stone? Walking through
doors and walls? Disappearing? Reappearing? How hard could any of that really be
for a man like Jesus with the powers of God at his disposal?

NOTE: Of all the miracles that Jesus performed; in my opinion the most remarkable
of all was his own resurrection. (John 2:19-22)
_

Click to expand...

John 20...where was John? It seems you are basing your thesis on only a part of the information....

Admon Mikha'el said:

John 20...where was John? It seems you are basing your thesis on only a part of the information....

Click to expand...

What would Jesus' glorified body look like compared to the old one?

Admon Mikha'el said:

What would Jesus' glorified body look like compared to the old one?

Click to expand...

I don't know.

• 1John 3:2-3 . . What we will be has not yet been made known.
_

Beetow said:

I don't know.

• 1John 3:2-3 . . What we will be has not yet been made known.
_

Click to expand...

You have to look at ALL the verses that deal with the resurection. You cannot build a doctrine on a single verse.....I wonder how many times we need to be told this....

Admon Mikha'el said:

What would Jesus' glorified body look like compared to the old one?

Click to expand...

Peter, James, and John saw Jesus transfigured on the mount, and John saw Jesus in HIS glorified body on Patmos. What a glorirfied sight indeed.

JerryfromMass said:

Peter, James, and John saw Jesus transfigured on the mount

Click to expand...

Were you to look at the Sun without a special solar filter, you would be unable to
see any of its physical characteristics due to the overwhelming brilliance blinding your
eyes.

• Matt 17:2 . . His face shone like the Sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

JerryfromMass said:

John saw Jesus in HIS glorified body on Patmos.

Click to expand...

Rev 1:10-16 is highly figurative language, and to top it off, John was again unable
to ascertain any of Jesus' physical characteristics due to the overwhelming brilliance
of the vision.

• Rev 1:16 . . His face was like the Sun shining in all its brilliance.

The quantity of light emanating from Jesus is bright enough to light up the holy
city.

• Rev 21:23 . .The city does not need the Sun or the Moon to shine on it, for the
glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
_

JerryfromMass said:

Peter, James, and John saw Jesus transfigured on the mount, and John saw Jesus in HIS glorified body on Patmos. What a glorirfied sight indeed.

Click to expand...

If this is the case. It didn't stay glorified long.

The mount of transfiguration incident was in Matt 17, ten chapters before Jesus was crucified in Matt 27. The Resurrection is in Matt 28.

In John 20:17; - Jesus told Mary Magdelene to quit clinging to Him because He wasn't glorified yet. (This was after the resurrection).

Yet after some "unknown" period of time. Jesus invited the disciples to touch His body in Luke 24:39;

He still had holes and scars at this time.

I would also challenge the way the statement above is worded. John was on Patmos when he had the vision of Revelation, Jesus Himself was not on Patmos.

B-A-C said:

If this is the case. It didn't stay glorified long.

The mount of transfiguration incident was in Matt 17, ten chapters before Jesus was crucified in Matt 27. The Resurrection is in Matt 28.

In John 20:17; - Jesus told Mary Magdelene to quit clinging to Him because He wasn't glorified yet. (This was after the resurrection).

Yet after some "unknown" period of time. Jesus invited the disciples to touch His body in Luke 24:39;

He still had holes and scars at this time.

I would also challenge the way the statement above is worded. John was on Patmos when he had the vision of Revelation, Jesus Himself was not on Patmos.

Click to expand...

The book Revelation is the written revelation Jesus Christ gave to John on the island Patmos. Jesus did in fact appear to John on Patmos, as clearly indicated by John in the first chapter of Revelation.

Beetow said:

Were you to look at the Sun without a special solar filter, you would be unable to
see any of its physical characteristics due to the overwhelming brilliance blinding your
eyes.

• Matt 17:2 . . His face shone like the Sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Rev 1:10-16 is highly figurative language, and to top it off, John was again unable
to ascertain any of Jesus' physical characteristics due to the overwhelming brilliance
of the vision.

• Rev 1:16 . . His face was like the Sun shining in all its brilliance.

The quantity of light emanating from Jesus is bright enough to light up the holy
city.

• Rev 21:23 . .The city does not need the Sun or the Moon to shine on it, for the
glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
_

Click to expand...

It remains written that Jesus appeared to John on Patmos in HIS glorified body. You may take it figuratively, indeed much of what is written in scripture are metaphors describing realities. But on Patmos, Jesus literally appeared to John.

JerryfromMass said:

But on Patmos, Jesus literally appeared to John.

Click to expand...

Probably the nearest that anybody has ever come to seeing the actual Jesus after
his ascension was Stephen.

• Acts 7:54-56 . . When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at
him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of
God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Look! he said. I see heaven open
and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.

Well; I don't really know which was written first: Acts or 1John, but John attests
that what we will be has not yet been made known (1John 3:2-3) and on top of
that, Matt 17:2 describes the glorified Jesus as radiating a brilliance above the
brightness of the Sun, so Stephen would not have been able to see past that to any
of the actual Jesus' physical features.

So I think it's safe to conclude that Stephen saw a vision rather than the real
McCoy; a vision similar to the one that John saw on the so-called mount of
transfiguration. (Matt 17:9)

As for Patmos, John saw not the actual Jesus, rather, an angel speaking and acting
for Jesus (Rev 22:16) but even the angel is described in figurative language rather
than literal language; so in my estimation it's not a good idea to use Rev 1:10-16
as a photograph of the actual Jesus, nor to attest that the angel was a physical
replication of the actual Jesus.
_

Beetow said:

Probably the nearest that anybody has ever come to seeing the actual Jesus after
his ascension was Stephen.

Click to expand...

I agree

Rev 1:10;
(AMPC) I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a war trumpet,
(ASV) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
(BBE) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and a great voice at my back, as of a horn, came to my ears,
(CEV) On the Lord's day the Spirit took control of me, and behind me I heard a loud voice that sounded like a trumpet.
(CSB) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard a loud voice behind me like a trumpet
(ESV) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
(GNB) On the Lord's day the Spirit took control of me, and I heard a loud voice, that sounded like a trumpet, speaking behind me.
(Greek NT TR+) εγενομηνG1096 V-2ADI-1S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ ηκουσαG191 V-AAI-1S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS φωνηνG5456 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF ωςG5613 ADV σαλπιγγοςG4536 N-GSF
(GW) I came under the Spirit's power on the Lord's day. I heard a loud voice behind me like a trumpet,
(HCSB) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard a loud voice behind me like a trumpet
(ISV) I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord, when I heard a loud voice behind me like a trumpet,
(KJV) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(KJVA) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(MKJV) I came to be in the Spirit in the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(MSG) It was Sunday and I was in the Spirit, praying. I heard a loud voice behind me, trumpet-clear and piercing:
(NAS77) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
(NASB) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
(NIrV) The Holy Spirit took complete control of me on the Lord's Day. I heard a loud voice behind me that sounded like a trumpet.
(NIV) On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
(NKJV) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
(NLT) It was the Lord’s Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. Suddenly, I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet blast.
(RV) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
(TPT) I was in the spirit realm on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice sounding like a trumpet,


John was "in the Spirit". This wasn't a physical encounter. The spirit is spirit, the flesh is flesh.

Rev 4:2; Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

Beetow said:

Probably the nearest that anybody has ever come to seeing the actual Jesus after
his ascension was Stephen.

• Acts 7:54-56 . . When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at
him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of
God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Look! he said. I see heaven open
and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.

Well; I don't really know which was written first: Acts or 1John, but John attests
that what we will be has not yet been made known (1John 3:2-3) and on top of
that, Matt 17:2 describes the glorified Jesus as radiating a brilliance above the
brightness of the Sun, so Stephen would not have been able to see past that to any
of the actual Jesus' physical features.

So I think it's safe to conclude that Stephen saw a vision rather than the real
McCoy; a vision similar to the one that John saw on the so-called mount of
transfiguration. (Matt 17:9)

As for Patmos, John saw not the actual Jesus, rather, an angel speaking and acting
for Jesus (Rev 22:16) but even the angel is described in figurative language rather
than literal language; so in my estimation it's not a good idea to use Rev 1:10-16
as a photograph of the actual Jesus, nor to attest that the angel was a physical
replication of the actual Jesus.
_

Click to expand...

Disagree entirely. Revelation chapter 1 states as fact that John, while on Patmos, heard, saw, and was physically touched by the glorified Jesus.

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches."

• Rev 1:17-18 . . And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his
right hand upon me, saying unto me: Fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he
that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have
the keys of hell and of death.

Whoever, or whatever, that that thing was that touched John wasn't real, nor was it
Jesus himself in person. John's entire experience was a Spirit-driven vision rather than
an actual event.

That thing, that apparition-- whoever or whatever it was --spoke for Jesus and also
spoke as Jesus. I am totally convinced that nobody on Earth has ever even once
seen the real glorified Jesus in person as he really is; and I for one certainly have no
ambition to be the first.

• John 17:5 . . And now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with
You before the world began.

• 1Tim 6:16 . .Who alone is immortal, and who lives in unapproachable light, whom
no one has seen or can see.
_

Beetow said:

• Rev 1:17-18 . . And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his
right hand upon me, saying unto me: Fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he
that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have
the keys of hell and of death.

Whoever, or whatever, that that thing was that touched John wasn't real, nor was it
Jesus himself in person. John's entire experience was a Spirit-driven vision rather than
an actual event.

That thing, that apparition-- whoever or whatever it was --spoke for Jesus and also
spoke as Jesus. I am totally convinced that nobody on Earth has ever even once
seen the real glorified Jesus in person as he really is; and I for one certainly have no
ambition to be the first.

• John 17:5 . . And now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with
You before the world began.

• 1Tim 6:16 . .Who alone is immortal, and who lives in unapproachable light, whom
no one has seen or can see.
_

Click to expand...

If you believe in the same God in whom I believe, that is: the ONE who created the heaven and earth and spoke all things into existence; the ONE who left HIS eternal place in heaven to be conceived in the womb of a young woman that HE created; the ONE who went through the gestation process and became became a fully human being while retaining HIS full divinity; and, the ONE who died on the cross to atone for the sins of yhe world for all that come to faith on HIM, and yet you don't believe this same God can reveal HIMSELF to whomever HE desires in whatever form HE desires, especially HIS apostle, then you have a very dim and tiny conception of my God. My God, YHVH, Jesus, Yeshua, is able.

Peace and blessings.

• John 5:19-21 . . I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do
only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also
does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all He does. Yes, to your
amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father
raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is
pleased to give it.

That is a profound statement.

Seeing as how his Father was the source of all of Jesus' miraculous powers, then we
have to give his Father credit for Jesus' ability to restore his own corpse to life.

Now if Jesus was able to restore his own corpse to life, then we are safe to conclude
that when he passed away on the cross, Jesus remained in conscious existence,
and retained possession of his miraculous powers too, i.e. somewhere beyond the
grave Jesus was alive.
_

Beetow said:

• John 5:19-21 . . I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do
only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also
does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all He does. Yes, to your
amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father
raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is
pleased to give it.

That is a profound statement.

Seeing as how his Father was the source of all of Jesus' miraculous powers, then we
have to give his Father credit for Jesus' ability to restore his own corpse to life.

Now if Jesus was able to restore his own corpse to life, then we are safe to conclude
that when he passed away on the cross, Jesus remained in conscious existence,
and retained possession of his miraculous powers too, i.e. somewhere beyond the
grave Jesus was alive.
_

Click to expand...

Jesus, as God in the flesh, possessed all the power of God; HE is God the Son. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit each possess the power of God. When Jesus died in the flesh, Jesus as God the Son raised HIMSELF from the grave; the Father as God raised Jesus from the grave; and, the Holy Spirit as God raised Jesus from the grave. All three members of the Godhead together raised Jesus from the grave. Jesus died a human death in order to fully reconcile God to humanity and fully reconcile humanity to God, to taste death for all of us, but when he rose from the grave HE was no longer a fully man/fully divine being, but was wholey divine.

Blessings.

JerryfromMass said:

when he rose from the grave HE was no longer a fully man/fully divine being, but
was wholey divine.

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ is a priest-- not just a rank and file priest, rather: a high priest.

• Heb 5:10 . . He has been specifically called by God a high priest

High priesthood is an office that's never been held by a divine being. It's always
been held by a human being; specifically a male human being.

• Heb 5:1 . . . For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf
of men over the things pertaining to God

• Heb 5:4 . . Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he
is called by God, just as Aaron also was.

• 1Tim 2:5 . . There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man,
Christ Jesus.

The Greek word translated "men" and "a man" in that verse is derived from
anthropos (anth'-ro-pos) --a common word for humans in the New Testament;
which is why that passage doesn't say the one mediator is a divine being; rather, it
says a man, Christ Jesus; who everyone knows to be a human being rather than a
divine being by the same name.

Ergo: were Jesus no longer fully human, then he would be disqualified for the office of a
high priest and the one mediator between God and Man.

Not only that, but he would also be disqualified from taking David's throne because that
has been specifically given to David's natural posterity. (Ps 132:11 & Acts 2:29-32)
_

Beetow said:

Jesus Christ is a priest-- not just a rank and file priest, rather: a high priest.

• Heb 5:10 . . He has been specifically called by God a high priest

High priesthood is an office that's never been held by a divine being. It's always
been held by a human being; specifically a male human being.

• Heb 5:1 . . . For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf
of men over the things pertaining to God

• Heb 5:4 . . Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he
is called by God, just as Aaron also was.

• 1Tim 2:5 . . There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man,
Christ Jesus.

The Greek word translated "men" and "a man" in that verse is derived from
anthropos (anth'-ro-pos) --a common word for humans in the New Testament;
which is why that passage doesn't say the one mediator is a divine being; rather, it
says a man, Christ Jesus; who everyone knows to be a human being rather than a
divine being by the same name.

Ergo: were Jesus no longer fully human, then he would be disqualified for the office of a
high priest and the one mediator between God and Man.

Not only that, but he would also be disqualified from taking David's throne because that
has been specifically given to David's natural posterity. (Ps 132:11 & Acts 2:29-32)
_

Click to expand...

Disagree with you entirely.

The Bible is clear: Jesus is God, Jesus was God incarnate, and Jesus will always be God the Word eternally. Jesus is our High Priest, but not a human high priest that must enter into the sanctuary time after time and time again. HE is High Priest on the order of Melchizadek, but HE is not Melchizadek, Jesus is God the Son, God the Word, God and High Priest and Judge.

Not certain what line of theology you follow, but you seem to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Care to say with which denomination you identify?

Blessings