JerryfromMass said:

God can do all things, but God will not act contrary to HIS nature.

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This is true. But then you go on and suggest His nature does not limit His omniscience. Example. He can know all things, but His nature is good, so He will remove Himself from any hint or appearance of pre-destination.

JerryfromMass said:

King David recognized the omni in God when he wrote: "Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and HIS greatness is unsearchable." Psalm 145:3, God is omnipotent, but God cannot lie, nor can God deny HIMSELF, nor can HE be unrighteous, nor can HE be unjust, but HE is filled with love, grace, and mercy, yet vengence is HIS, and HIS wrath can no man escape except the saved elect by HIS grace through faith. See how usearchable is God's greatness? You struggle to convince yourself and others that God is limited in his power when it is clear that HIS omnipotence is unsearchable.

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For the second time, I do not believe He has limited power. He limits His power. As I have already proven but you refuse to acknowledge.

JerryfromMass said:

In the beginning God spoke things into existence. Imagine the power behind that. By HIS omnipotence God created all things, even that which HE hates, e.g., evil antedeluvian humans. Imagine the power behind that. Then God destroyed all living things on the earth (save those on the ark) in one massive flood. Imagine the power behind that. Then God became an embryo in a virgin's womb and born a human being who would live to adulthood, be crucified, killed, buried, and raised to life again. Imagine the power behind that.

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Imagine being so powerful and then being a Lamb to the slaughter at the mercy of little, inconsequential humans.

JerryfromMass said:

As the potter molds the clay, does the clay cry out: why, what, how? You are the clay crying out. Instead, be still and know that HE is God.

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Calvinism 101 is to quote Rom 9 as the A-Z of scripture describing God. The rest of scripture describes what this ''powerful, all knowing'' God does in fact do with His power. He limits it when it is necessary to uphold being good. Even to the point of the cross, where Jesus cried ''my Lord why have though forsaken me''.

God goes through so much to make free will a reality to us. For us. Yet we do not communicate this to the lost. We come with '''He is all knowing'''. Mocking the cross, our existence and all of scripture.

A God that chose to be 100% omniscient and omnipotent in His dealings with us would have created a handful of angels and humans in heaven. God did not do this.

It was Jesus Christ who cried out -- My God, why have you forsaken me. And it was Jesus Christ who went through so much for all of us to make salvation possible -- Matthew 27: 46 "And about the 9th hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, iama sabachthani" That is "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

And, yes, we Do have free will -- It's just that God Because He is omniscient does what what we will do.

since when does God's being all-knowing mock the cross , our existence and all of Scripture.

And, yes, 'be still and know that He Is God'. Psalm 46:10 --in fact -- the beginning of that Psalm "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."

KingJ said:

This is true. But then you go on and suggest His nature does not limit His omniscience. Example. He can know all things, but His nature is good, so He will remove Himself from any hint or appearance of pre-destination.



For the second time, I do not believe He has limited power. He limits His power. As I have already proven but you refuse to acknowledge.

Imagine being so powerful and then being a Lamb to the slaughter at the mercy of little, inconsequential humans.

Calvinism 101 is to quote Rom 9 as the A-Z of scripture describing God. The rest of scripture describes what this ''powerful, all knowing'' God does in fact do with His power. He limits it when it is necessary to uphold being good. Even to the point of the cross, where Jesus cried ''my Lord why have though forsaken me''.

God goes through so much to make free will a reality to us. For us. Yet we do not communicate this to the lost. We come with '''He is all knowing'''. Mocking the cross, our existence and all of scripture.

A God that chose to be 100% omniscient and omnipotent in His dealings with us would have created a handful of angels and humans in heaven. God did not do this.

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"Imagine being so powerful and then being a Lamb to the slaughter at the mercy of little, inconsequential humans."

God became human to do that which Israel failed to do, that is: be a light to the nations so that they would know there is a God.

Dave M said:

What would of happen if the Jews did not Reject Jesus?

they go from proclaiming him to be king

John 12:13
So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”


to crucify him , mocking him

Luke 23:35-37
And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”

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If the Jews embraced Jesus and recognized and praised HIM for who HE is, they would have become the light to the entire world for the the glory of GOD unto salvation that GOD had been trying to get them to be since the promise was made to Abraham.

JerryfromMass said:

God became human to do that which Israel failed to do, that is: be a light to the nations so that they would know there is a God.

If the Jews embraced Jesus and recognized and praised HIM for who HE is, they would have become the light to the entire world for the the glory of GOD unto salvation that GOD had been trying to get them to be since the promise was made to Abraham.

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Completely disagree.

The Jews were chosen to be the 'earthly' bloodline of Jesus. Jesus is the light of the world.

If the Jews did not crucify Him, someone else would have. The Jews would in this instance simply have been the first nation as a whole to convert to Christianity.

KingJ said:

Completely disagree.

The Jews were chosen to be the 'earthly' bloodline of Jesus. Jesus is the light of the world.

If the Jews did not crucify Him, someone else would have. The Jews would in this instance simply have been the first nation as a whole to convert to Christianity.

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If you don't read and understand Old Testament prophecy, not only to whom it was given but WHO was giving it, you'll never understand New Testament fulfillment of those prophecies.

JerryfromMass said:

If you don't read and understand Old Testament prophecy, not only to whom it was given but WHO was giving it, you'll never understand New Testament fulfillment of those prophecies.

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I understand the OT just fine. I can agree that the Jews were a light of sort. But cannot agree that they were to fulfil what Jesus did. As you said '' God became human to do that which Israel failed to do, ''. Jesus was planned to come to earth before the foundations of the world.

KingJ said:

Completely disagree.

The Jews were chosen to be the 'earthly' bloodline of Jesus. Jesus is the light of the world.

If the Jews did not crucify Him, someone else would have. The Jews would in this instance simply have been the first nation as a whole to convert to Christianity.

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Jesus is that LIGHT, but where is the LIGHT now? "Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”john 8:12. "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” John 9:5. "In the same way, let your light shine before others," Matthew 5:16. "For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” acts 13:47. "For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light" Ephesians 5:8. "So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light." Romans 13:12. "That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world," Philippians 2:15.

KingJ said:

I understand the OT just fine. I can agree that the Jews were a light of sort. But cannot agree that they were to fulfil what Jesus did. As you said '' God became human to do that which Israel failed to do, ''. Jesus was planned to come to earth before the foundations of the world.

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The question in the OP was a hypothetical, as was my answer.

Yes, Jesus was the proto evangelium. But why?

Who chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The triune God, of whom Jesus is eternally a part.

Who spoke with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The Word - the eternal Son of the the Triune Godhead.

What did God - the Word - tell the prophets to tell Israel? Be a light to the gentiles.

When Jesus came, HE was God in the flesh provoking Israel and reconciling humanity to himself.

Why was Jesus provoking Israel? Because Jesus - the eternal Son of the triune Godhead - sent HIS message to the prophets to provoke Israel with HIS message to be a light, but they rejected that command.

Why was Jesus reconciling humanity to HIMSELF? Because HE knew Israel would reject HIM, just as Israel rejected HIS prophets. Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy of the proto evangelium - HIS ultimate purpose for why he had come: atone for the sins of the world and give to all that believe in HIM the indwelling light to shine in a lost and hurting world.

JerryfromMass said:

The question in the OP was a hypothetical, as was my answer.

Yes, Jesus was the proto evangelium. But why?

Who chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The triune God, of whom Jesus is eternally a part.

Who spoke with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The Word - the eternal Son of the the Triune Godhead.

What did God - the Word - tell the prophets to tell Israel? Be a light to the gentiles.

When Jesus came, HE was God in the flesh provoking Israel and reconciling humanity to himself.

Why was Jesus provoking Israel? Because Jesus - the eternal Son of the triune Godhead - sent HIS message to the prophets to provoke Israel with HIS message to be a light, but they rejected that command.

Why was Jesus reconciling humanity to HIMSELF? Because HE knew Israel would reject HIM, just as Israel rejected HIS prophets. Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy of the proto evangelium - HIS ultimate purpose for why he had come: atone for the sins of the world and give to all that believe in HIM the indwelling light to shine in a lost and hurting world.

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This is just off track to what we were discussing in previous posts. There is truth to what you are saying.

KingJ said:

This is just off track to what we were discussing in previous posts. There is truth to what you are saying.

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I hear you. I am often told by my daughter that my speech often takes sharp turns from speaking on one subject to another. Peace and blessings.

Understanding many of the "IF" questions are phrased to build a discussion they still kinda bug me. There is no if to God's plan. No if to His plan of salvation, no if to His return. No if to HIs sovereignty , no if to His Grace. God is not a politician pandering for votes He alone is Sovereign.

Reba1 said:

Understanding many of the "IF" questions are phrased to build a discussion they still kinda bug me. There is no if to God's plan. No if to His plan of salvation, no if to His return. No if to HIs sovereignty , no if to His Grace. God is not a politician pandering for votes He alone is Sovereign.

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So true, sister.