Admon Mikha'el
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I don't presume anything. I see twisted logic instead of simple belief in the Word.
Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?
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Butch5
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Sure you did. You said, "I'm saying that if you do not believe it you will refuse to see it.....You twist my words as you twist Gods Word." You said if I don't believe it I will refuse to see it. But, in reality you don't know what I would or would not refuse to see.
Admon Mikha'el
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I sais what people DO....They refuse to believe and they refuse to SEE....Don't blame me for your attitudes...They're yours.
Butch5
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I don't have an attitude. It seems you're getting frustrated. You said "you" that means me. There maybe, and probably are, people who refuse to see stuff. But, that's not me.
Admon Mikha'el
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I have a physical reason for frustration....and you do have an attitude...not a good one.
Butch5
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I don't have an attitude.
Admon Mikha'el
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Your words make that plain.
@Butch5 -- you commented that the translators 'got it wrong' meaning 'breath rather than Spirit'. And I'd say that they got it right -- when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and SAvior -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell their heart. It's not a 'breath' -- and a breath doesn't convict a person of their sin. The Holy Spirit 'comforts' , teaches.
Just looked it up -- the Hebrew word "ruach' can mean 'spirit, breath or wind'. Sounds like You prefer to use 'breath' and the translators use 'spirit'. I'd go with the translators.
Just looked it up -- the Hebrew word "ruach' can mean 'spirit, breath or wind'. Sounds like You prefer to use 'breath' and the translators use 'spirit'. I'd go with the translators.
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'God, -
Who at sundry times and in divers manners
.. spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
.... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (his) Son,
...... Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
........ by Whom also He made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of His glory,
.. and the express image of His person,
.... and upholding all things by the word of His power,
...... when He had by Himself purged our sins,
........ sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
.......... Being made so much better than the angels,
............ as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'
(Hebrews 1:1-4)
Hi @Butch5,
Yes, food for thought: but God is spirit isn't He? So the conception was entirely of Him.
I do not seek to defend the use of the word, 'Trinity', for it is not Scriptural: but the work of God is time and again a combination of Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together, as One God manifested in three different ways. So it cannot be denied.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. As the Lord Jesus said, 'The flesh profeth nothing' (John 6:63), the words that He spoke, 'they are spirit, they are life'. He was made of the seed of David, in the flesh, but declared to be the Son of God with power according the the spirit of holiness by the resurrection of the dead (Romans 1:4).
'Jesus saith unto Him,
Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip?
He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not
that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.'
(John 14:9-10)
'I AM THAT I AM ' - (Exodus 3:14)
Thank you for these thoughts, @Butch5,
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris
Greetings,
i write in defense of fellow Member Butch5 @Butch5 to assure you, Admon Mikha'el @Admon Mikha'el and Sue D @Sue D. that Butch5 does not have a bad attitude.
If anything, he is extremely patient and for the most part, far more polite than most.
We all share those things that we consider to be right and you all can probably recollect times when there were other Member(s) you did not agree with and considered them to be wrong.
Simply because we do not agree does not automatically mean that the other person has problems with attitude.
Can this thread continue in peace and everyone can be blessed?
You know, sometimes it is the things we don't agree with that can propel us to discover more as we search the Scriptures for greater understanding. I am not saying that any particular Member in this thread is right or wrong in what they PRESENTLY either believe or understand BUT some comments do border on wrong.
Please let us post in peace
Bless you all ....><>
ps... i was reading a bunch of commentaries recently and while i did not get too 'filled' with anything much, i did note that most, if not all, seemed bent on slipping in what was a doctrine of the established Church rather than a Scriptural truth. That's OK for me because i was not looking for a doctrine of the church and i understand that while there are some things i do not agree with, who am i .... and how did i get to be anything more than a dead sinner?
They appeared to not have an answer, so they included some matter that i see as 'ear tickling'. I may be proven wrong and i do ask the Lord to have mercy on me if i am. But i am not going to let the devil convince me to be angry or judgemental..
There is a good chance the men who wrote those works were much better men than i will ever be, which, honestly, would not be at all difficult.
Sometimes it's best to leave the tares in, so the grain does not suffer loss.
Jesus is Lord
i write in defense of fellow Member Butch5 @Butch5 to assure you, Admon Mikha'el @Admon Mikha'el and Sue D @Sue D. that Butch5 does not have a bad attitude.
If anything, he is extremely patient and for the most part, far more polite than most.
We all share those things that we consider to be right and you all can probably recollect times when there were other Member(s) you did not agree with and considered them to be wrong.
Simply because we do not agree does not automatically mean that the other person has problems with attitude.
Can this thread continue in peace and everyone can be blessed?
You know, sometimes it is the things we don't agree with that can propel us to discover more as we search the Scriptures for greater understanding. I am not saying that any particular Member in this thread is right or wrong in what they PRESENTLY either believe or understand BUT some comments do border on wrong.
Please let us post in peace
Bless you all ....><>
ps... i was reading a bunch of commentaries recently and while i did not get too 'filled' with anything much, i did note that most, if not all, seemed bent on slipping in what was a doctrine of the established Church rather than a Scriptural truth. That's OK for me because i was not looking for a doctrine of the church and i understand that while there are some things i do not agree with, who am i .... and how did i get to be anything more than a dead sinner?
They appeared to not have an answer, so they included some matter that i see as 'ear tickling'. I may be proven wrong and i do ask the Lord to have mercy on me if i am. But i am not going to let the devil convince me to be angry or judgemental..
There is a good chance the men who wrote those works were much better men than i will ever be, which, honestly, would not be at all difficult.
Sometimes it's best to leave the tares in, so the grain does not suffer loss.
Jesus is Lord
@Br.Bear -- it Sounds like you're supporting Butch5 stance on the Holy Spirit since that is what has been talked about most recently. And this thread is about the trinity and various passages listed.
We Do have 2 Timothy 3:15 - 16 And 2 Peter 1:21 "For prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
So to discredit the trinity / the Holy Spirit is to discredit God's Word.
Is that what you're encouraging ? by supporting Butch5's comments.
It's not a churches' doctrines / beliefs --it Is Bible doctrine / teaching.
A true church is going to up-hold Bible doctrine - teaching. And that includes teachings about trinity -- especially the role of the Holy Spirit.
We Do have 2 Timothy 3:15 - 16 And 2 Peter 1:21 "For prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
So to discredit the trinity / the Holy Spirit is to discredit God's Word.
Is that what you're encouraging ? by supporting Butch5's comments.
It's not a churches' doctrines / beliefs --it Is Bible doctrine / teaching.
A true church is going to up-hold Bible doctrine - teaching. And that includes teachings about trinity -- especially the role of the Holy Spirit.
Butch5
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Sue, you said that I said the translators got it wrong. I simply asked you why they would translate and capitalize the word ruach in Gen.1:2 and not in all of those other passages? You didn't answer. Instead you attempted to pass it off as my bad interpretation. I've noticed that's a pattern when you're presented with Scripture that goes against what you believe. I didn't interpret or translate any of those passages I posted. The are straight out of the New King James version. It is the translators, that you so highly esteem, that chose the words breath or blast. If we use your understanding, how are we to understand those passages. Are we to understand that the third person of the Trinity is coming out of God's nostrils? Is it the third person of the Trinity in Job's nostrils, or in man's nostrils? How could a person of the Godhead be in someone's nostrils? I don't see how that understanding could possibly make any sense at all.
If we look at how the word ruach, and it's counterpart pneuma, are used from Genesis to Revelation, as opposed to reading someone's dictionary definition, we'll get the true sense of the word. Yes, it is translated spirit at times. However, if we research this we'll find that translating it "spirit" is a figure of speech. The literal meaning is wind or breath. The word doesn't carry the idea of a disembodied living being. That's a figure of speech. However, even though the literal meaning is wind or breath, when it's used of God, it's a metaphor. The breath of God isn't air. Wind is a source of power. Sailors use it to move ships. It is used to generate electricity by turning windmills. Wind is a source of power, thus it is a metaphor for God's power. In Genesis, the breath of life is what gives man life. It is God's power that gives man life. Job said that if God retrieved His ruach all flesh would die. He said that it is God's ruach that gives man his ability to understand. It's God's power that does this. It is by God's power that everything lives. Paul said that God gives, present tense, life to all things. I know you're going to balk at this, however, it's right in the Scriptures. It's actually in the passage in question.
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:35 KJV)
It's right there. The Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest. It's the Father. The Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father. That's how the Holy Spirit can impregnate Mary and God the Father be the father of Jesus. I posed a question to you several times that you did not answer. I asked who was Jesus' Father, God the Father or the third person of the Trinity. If there is a third person of the Trinity, then he would be the father of Jesus as he supposedly impregnated Mary. The problem with that is that the Scriptures say no such thing. The Scriptures tell us that God, the Father, is Jesus' father. But, if the Holy Spirit (Breath) is a manifestation of the Father, then there is no third person.
Is there anything else that tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Father? There is. Most, and it appears you do from yours posts, believe the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said this to His disciples.
"These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.
2 "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.
3 "And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.
4 "But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them. And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me,`Where are You going?'
6 "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
16 "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."
17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, "What is this that He says to us,`A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and,`because I go to the Father '?"
18 They said therefore, "What is this that He says,`A little while '? We do not know what He is saying."
19 Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, "Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said,`A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me '?
20 "Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.
21 "A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.
22 "Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
23 "And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.it
24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.
(Jn. 16:1-25 NKJ)
In this passage Jesus speaks of the things the Helper is going to do. Then He tells them that He's been speaking figuratively. He then tells them that the time is coming when He will no longer speak figuratively about the Father, but plainly. What He's said here is that the language of the Helper is figuratively speaking of the Father. The Father is the Helper. So, if the Holy Spirit, Breath, is a manifestation of the Father then it could convict the world of sin and do all of those other things we read about.
There's more.
67 "If You are the Christ, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you will by no means believe.
68 "And if I also ask you, you will by no means answer Me or let Me go.
69 "Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God."
70 Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am."
71 And they said, "What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth." (Lk. 22:67-23:1 NKJ)
Jesus said He would be seated at the right hand of the power of God. Was He seated next to God the Father who was on the throne, or was it the third person of the Trinity who was on the Throne?
The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Ps. 110:1 NKJ)
The word LORD here is Jehovah or Yahweh. Remember, the angel told Mary the Holy Spirit and the power of the Highest would come upon her. Here we have the power of God conceiving Jesus. Above we have Jesus seated at the right hand of the power of God. That means one of two things. Either the power of God is the third person of the Trinity or the power of God is the Father. I think we'd all agree that it is the Father who sits upon the Throne.
What about Paul? We have circumstantial evidence from Paul. While this doesn't prove anything conclusively one has to wonder why Paul would do this. If there are three persons of the Godhead, why in his letters to the churches does Paul only give greetings from two of them.
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom. 1:7 KJV)
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:3 KJV)
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 1:2 KJV)
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (Gal. 1:3 KJV)
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:2 KJV)
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phil. 1:2 KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Col. 1:1-2 KJV)
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 1:1 KJV)
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 1:2 KJV)
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Tim. 1:2 KJV)
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (2 Tim. 1:2 KJV)
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Tit. 1:4 KJV)
3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phlm. 1:3 KJV)
Here we have 13 letters written by Paul. All of them offer grace and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. If Paul believed there were three coequal, coeternal, persons of the Godhead, one has to wonder why Paul didn't open these letters saying, grace to you and peace, from God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Again, this is circumstantial evidence and it doesn't actually prove anything. But, it is food for thought. In every letter, with the exception of Hebrews, he makes sure to offer grace and peace from God the Father and Jesus Christ, but, there's no mention of the Holy Spirit in any of them. Again, if Paul believed there were three coequal, coeternal, persons in the Godhead, it's hard to believe he would totally snub the third person.
Butch5
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Yet, it can't be shown from Scripture. How then is it a Biblical doctrine?
Butch5
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Thanks Br. Bear, I'm used to it. Those on this forum as easy. I've been on some forums where people are brutal.
Butch5
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Hi Chris, for clarification, do you hold a Modalist view? That being that God is a single being who manifests Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, at different times as needed?
@Butch5 -- the Godhead = God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. Those three have their distinct 'jobs' / roles in Scripture.
Never said that the Holy Spirit is the Father or that the Father is the Holy Spirit.
The Comforter, Helper are two names for the Holy Spirit -- they describe what He does.
Paul is not 'snubbing' the Holy Spirit -- He was sharing in his letters what God was telling him to write under the guidance Of the Holy Spirit. One of the roles Of the Holy Spirit is that of convicting people of their sinfulness.
Jesus Christ is telling the disciples to make disciples of all the nations -- baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
In the Old Testament the Spirit of God Is the Holy Spirit -- He came upon people and then left again. In the New Testament -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the individual believer and never leaves until the person is safely with Jesus Christ.
In the book of Acts -- the Day of Pentecost -- the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Never said that the Holy Spirit is the Father or that the Father is the Holy Spirit.
The Comforter, Helper are two names for the Holy Spirit -- they describe what He does.
Paul is not 'snubbing' the Holy Spirit -- He was sharing in his letters what God was telling him to write under the guidance Of the Holy Spirit. One of the roles Of the Holy Spirit is that of convicting people of their sinfulness.
Jesus Christ is telling the disciples to make disciples of all the nations -- baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
In the Old Testament the Spirit of God Is the Holy Spirit -- He came upon people and then left again. In the New Testament -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the individual believer and never leaves until the person is safely with Jesus Christ.
In the book of Acts -- the Day of Pentecost -- the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Admon Mikha'el
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Who said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"? Who said that about Jesus?
Greetings Sue,
slow down my Sister.
Please re-read what i did say/write.
I was not taking sides regarding the content presented BUT i was defending our Brother's character which is what was being called into question.
We all know that we should not get 'attitude' about each other and we should know that if we do, we ought to take time in prayer and resist the devil.
There are many times that i have 'caught myself' having attitude about someone and all too often i have either aired it or harbored it so it would fester inside me... and both are so wrong.
If we can not follow another's reasoning or if we do not agree, that is OK because we can employ that to do right(eousness) according to all we have been gifted both by the Lord in that which He gives each one severally and also in having Bibles, with the bonus that we can read.
May you know God's love and blessings to and upon you in Jesus Christ the Lord, Sue
and Sister, i know that you mean well and i for one appreciate your steadfastness in faith in Christ Jesus.
Bless you ....><>
slow down my Sister.
Please re-read what i did say/write.
I was not taking sides regarding the content presented BUT i was defending our Brother's character which is what was being called into question.
We all know that we should not get 'attitude' about each other and we should know that if we do, we ought to take time in prayer and resist the devil.
There are many times that i have 'caught myself' having attitude about someone and all too often i have either aired it or harbored it so it would fester inside me... and both are so wrong.
If we can not follow another's reasoning or if we do not agree, that is OK because we can employ that to do right(eousness) according to all we have been gifted both by the Lord in that which He gives each one severally and also in having Bibles, with the bonus that we can read.
May you know God's love and blessings to and upon you in Jesus Christ the Lord, Sue
and Sister, i know that you mean well and i for one appreciate your steadfastness in faith in Christ Jesus.
Bless you ....><>
Greetings,
now that could also be posted on a recent thread about Baptism.
May you know and have God's peace in Jesus Christ the Lord, Brother
Bless you ....><>
now that could also be posted on a recent thread about Baptism.
May you know and have God's peace in Jesus Christ the Lord, Brother
Bless you ....><>
and yet, look at Philip not long after....
Acts 8:4-13
Acts 8:26-40
and Acts 21:8
praise the Lord
Bless you Chris ....><>
