Is it Okay to Condemn Sinners?
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Original post: "Is it okay to condemn sinners?" ... tl;dr... Short answer: Jesus says no.
Longer answer: (copy/pasted)
Longer answer: (copy/pasted)
- The Absolute Conditional Clause: In the Covenant Press master collection's Literal Standard Version (LSV), Jesus attaches an explicit condition to the primary corporate prayer of the New Covenant. In Matthew 6:14–15, immediately following the Lord's Prayer, He states: "For if you forgive men their stumbling-blocks, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their stumbling-blocks, neither will your Father forgive your stumbling-blocks."
- The Infinite Standard: In Matthew 18:21–22, when Peter attempts to place a legal limit on mercy by asking if seven times is enough, Jesus shatters the metric: "I do not say to you until seven times, but until seventy times seven."
- The Retributive Law: In the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (Matthew 18:23–35), a servant who was forgiven a massive debt refuses to forgive a tiny debt owed by a peer. The Bible records that the master delivers him over to the torturers until he pays it all back. Jesus concludes with a strict warning in verse 35: "So also My heavenly Father will do to you, if you do not forgive each from your hearts his brother his stumbling-blocks."
planet2146
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ultimately we would be condemning each other because it is pretty arrogant to believe that you do not sin yourself.
No problem Brother Nick., i see these discussions as open and free for all to comment on as they wish. As such your observations are greatly appreciated.
If you'd seen my earlier posts Brother Nick, you would have seen me replying extensively To KingJ and quoting Christs words in full, please see my posts #73,#83,#88,#91,#93,#99, where i tried in vain to bring the issue down to 7 simple questions to understand what the differences are between us and finally #118 where i was replying to KingJ asking for " one sentence, one verse, one explicit statement " to support my view that Christ condemns the mere possession of Riches and those that possess them. So if you'd like a more extensive discussion, with context, then please choose any of those posts and we can take it from there.
That is true of course Brother Nick, but Christ explicitly cites riches and this particular Rich man to make the point that the possession of Riches is a barrier to salvation. In context, prior to the words in Luke 18:24-30, Christ had told the Rich man "to give ALL he had to the poor and you shall have Treasure in heaven and come follow me", this is a theme reiterated in ALL the gospel stories dealing with the Rich ruler and is also shown in Christs words in Luke 12 32-34 where Christ says "
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."....... this theme of the rich being told to give what they have to the poor, to exchange their earthly riches for "Treasure in heaven" is again illustrated in the story of Zacchaeus, where its only after Zacchaeus has given his riches away that Christ pronounces "Today Salvation has come to this house". The rich young ruler couldnt do this, so with Christs words of " It will be easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter Heaven", was condemned.
No Brother Nick, youre wrong, if you read my previous posts you'll see that Christs condemnation of the rich is a constant theme throughout his teaching, and while its true that the prevailing thought of that time was that the rich were in some way blessed by God, which gave rise to the Disciples question of "Who then can be saved", because if the rich can't be saved then who can be?, Christs teaching, as in so many other ways turned the world on its head, the poor and oppressed were blessed and the Rich and powerful condemned as in Luke 6: 20-25"
20And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep."..... and of course i agree that no one can enter the Kingdom of God except through Christ, and what Christ was showing here is that Riches are a barrier to entering that Kingdom.
And that is so true, we must never constrict God to our ideas of whats right or wrong, of just and unjust, for everything is possible with God.
I see verses 29 and 30 as a fulfillment of Christs commandment to "Deny yourself, take up your Cross and follow me", the disciples had given up what they had, denied themselves and followed Christ and their reward was the community of their fellow believers in this life and life everlasting in the next. Again the concept of forgoing Earthly treasures to receive heavenly treasure in the form of the Kingdom is reiterated by Christ.
Agreed Brother Nick, but as on so many other occasions Christ makes it clear that to enter the Kingdom of God you must follow his teachings and commandments and in them he shows that the possession of riches is a barrier to salvation, as it stops the seed of Faith coming to fruition, Mark 4:18-19 "
18And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful."
And perhaps more importantly, you cannot claim to "Love your Neighbour as yourself" and "Treat others as you'd want to be treated", you cannot claim to "deny yourself, take up your Cross and follow Christ" if you live in wealth and comfort and your Neighbour suffers and dies in poverty. we are ALL wretched sinners for sure, and none of us will get into the Kingdom by our own efforts, we are ALL dependent of Gods Grace, his Mercy and his Forgiveness, but there are some things that in themselves are so sinful that they are a barrier to entering Heaven, and the possession of Riches is one of those
As i said, no problem Brother Nick
With the love of Christ Jesus
Steve
Hannah1
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you know I agree brother, but then the question comes, how much can we save for ourselves, how much can we have, before it is deemed wrong? I am thinking of things like paying rent/mortgage, bills, (which forever is going up) food(same) and some extra for yourself.. where is that line? to avoid forever punishing yourself, I mean.. which could be easily done even if what you use for extra to yourself is small.
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Because it also comes down to rich according to whom?
Riches is also relative to the society you happen to be living in. Say a rich person in the poorest of nations, moves to a richer nation or even vice versa, and their economic status changes. According to this type of doctrine the person now is saved, or damned depending on which direction their social economic status they moved to or happen to be at when death occurs.
The point in scripture is pretty straightforward: material wealth is temporary, vulnerable, and ultimately unable to secure lasting good for the soul. I would point out these rich people who were saved, but of course it would be ignored, though they were followers of Jesus (Joseph of Arimathea, Lydia).
Whether that distortion comes from leftist ideology which I believe it probably does, or prosperity-gospel excess on the other side, or any other cultural influences, it is still a distortion of the text. Grace is offered freely to every sinner who turns to Christ. Wealth can make that turning harder in practice, but it does not close the door.
I know that your post was probably intended for Rad, but I couldn't stop myself from replying to you. lol
With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
Hannah1
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I agree with you that the door is not closed although depending on where the heart is can make it harder.
Youre taking out of context again, describe how hardly the rich shall enter into the Kingdom of God and you shall have your answer. You need to quote the whole relevant text and also the many other times Christ condemned the rich just for being rich. However this is dealt with below.
So then what is your deduction as to the meaning of Christs words, for i cant see it any differently as "Its impossible for a Rich man to enter Heaven", in fact Christ took it a stage further, he said its "EASIER FOR A CAMEL TO PASS THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN A RICH MAN ENTER HEAVEN", not just as hard, but easier, so where does that leave you?
For a long time i couldn't understand the disciples reaction, until i was told many years ago by someone far more learned in Scripture than myself, the Theological Advisor to the Charity TEARFUND, that their reaction came from the understanding or belief that the rich were in some way "Blessed" by God, so if Christ was condemning the rich, then "who then can be saved". The answer Christ gives to the Disciples question is at the Heart of our faith, that we can never "save" ourselves, for we are ALL wretched sinners unworthy in the sight of God, and that it is only by Gods grace, Mercy and forgiveness that any of us are saved, or as Christ said " The things which are impossible with men are possible with God"
You see youre "Cherry picking" again and taking Christs words out of context, The "cherry picking" comes from the fact that out of all 3 accounts in the Gospels, only 1, Marks, refers to "trust in Riches", the other 2 in Matthews and Lukes Gospel just say" How hard it will be for the rich to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It will be easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter Heaven", theres no mention of "trust in riches, so if that was an important clarification why did Christ only mention it in 1 out of 3 versions of the same story?.
As for "context", you quote the first 2 lines of Christs words in Mark 10:23-24, but then you leave out Christs final words in Mark 10:25, here they are, " It is easier for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle than a Rich man enter Heaven", there is no difference between "trust in riches " and "The rich", the terms are interchangeable, Christ talks of "they that have riches" in verse 23, "those that "trust in riches" in verse 24 and " a rich man" in verse 25, Attitude is not the issue, mere possession is, and why did Christ demonstrate this, probably for the same reason we're having this conversation now, he foresaw sinful man trying to say " Its not my riches that are the problem but my attitude towards them"., this is clearly not so as illustrated in Matthew and Lukes version of the story where "trust in riches" is never mentioned and in the full context of Christs words in Marks version where the Rich and trust in riches are interchangeable.
I f you want any further evidence of Christs attitude to those that possess Riches see Matthew 6 :19-24, where Christ says, Do not store up Treasure/ Riches" on Earth..... for where your Treasure is your heart will be also", and then in verse 24, "You cannot serve 2 masters......you cannot serve God and mammon". ITS NOT THE ATTITUDE TO YOUR RICHES THATS THE ISSUE , BUT THE MERE POSSESSION OF THEM. You really need to understand that.
You know very well that Abraham, David and Job lived under the OT Covenant where being rich wasnt something that would condemn you in itself, Christ changed that, under the NT Covenant being rich is condemned for all the reasons ive listed in my numerous previous postings. As for Joseph of Arimathea, there is no further mention of what happened to him, but even if he was Rich and God saved him, where is the problem with that, or do you restrict God to follow the same teachings and commandments he gives to us to follow?. God is God, he can do with His creation as he wills, and any attempt to constrain him by our own futile notions of Justice are fruitless as Christ illustrated in the Parable of "The Workers in the Vineyard" where in verse 15 the "goodman of the house", God, says "Is it not lawful for me to do what i will with mine own?. Is thine eye evil because i am good". Christ gives us the basis on which we must try to live our lives, and thats it, how WE should live our lives, not God, WE, and if God chooses to do something different then who are we to question that. Otherwise how can there ever be a "Day of Judgement" where God will consign the majority of his creation to everlasting torment, when Christ tells us to "Turn the other cheek, do not resist evil, Love our enemies, Pray for those that persecute us and do good to those that spitefully use us". God is not restricted by our notions of whats right or wrong but we are here to obey his teachings on Love, Compassion ,Justice and the incompatibility of Riches with our professed faith.
Hi Hannah, i did want to reply to your post this afternoon but time has caught up with me as it always does, but youre first on my list for tomorrow, so i'll give you my thoughts then.
To answer this first, as its a short reply, i chose the name "Rad" as short for "Radical", as i believed my views on Christs teachings were "Radical" 20 years ago when i joined the forums, now a lot older and a bit wiser, i realise Christ is the "Radical" one and i'm just catching up to where hes always been.
Before i reply to your question Hannah i think we need to put our situation in context. We live in a world where according to the UN and other development organisations around 1 billion people live in abject poverty, barely existing on less than a couple of $'s a day, where 800 million men, women and children go to bed hungry every night, 50 million of whom are in a state of starvation close to death, where around 800 million people have no access to clean drinking water and Billions lack access to any form of improved sanitation, where Basic health care and education is beyond the reach of hundreds of millions and as a consequence of all this poverty and deprivation around 16,000 young children die from the effects of Malnutrition and easily preventable illnesses and diseases, 8,500 of whom die from hunger related causes. Hundreds of Millions more, possibly even billions more, live just above the abject poverty level and every day is a struggle for survival.
So before we look at our own lives we need to understand the world, Gods world, that we have created. For God created a World where there are adequate resources for all to live fulfilling lives, and its only due to the greed and selfishness of Humanity that we have a world where the rich live in wealth and comfort and the poor suffer and die in poverty. So to your question "how much can we save for ourselves, how much can we have, before it is deemed wrong?", that is something each of us must decide for ourselves, but in coming to that decision we must as followers of Christ, understand what Christ has to say on the matter.
Christ said " Deny yourselves, take up your Cross and follow me", a life of denial and self sacrifice in the name of Love, we must ask ourselves ,in the context of all the poverty, death and suffering in the world how does my life, the life i'm leading, reflect Christs teaching? Am i denying myself, am i making that sacrifice in the name of Love?. Christ also said in Luke 6: 20-26
20And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets....... words that bless the poor and the suffering and curse the rich and the comfortable, so again we must ask ourselves where do we fit in with Christs teaching, are we the poor and suffering or the rich and comfortable?, and in the Story of the Rich Ruler, the story of Zacchaeus and Christ words to the disciples in 11:41 " ;But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you." and Luke 12:32-34 "
32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." we see Christ re-iterating to sell ALL we have , give it to the poor and store up "Treasure in Heaven", this is re-enforced by Christs words in Matthew 6:19-24 where Christ again says to "not store up Treasure on Earth.... but store up Treasure in heaven", and again in Matthew 5:1-12, "The Beattitudes" we see that call to self denial, sacrifice and giving our ALL for the Kingdom of God.
The point i'm trying to make is that we follow a "Radical" God, a Christ who demands of us nothing less than our totality of Heart, body and Soul, and our possessions and wealth. Now none of us can give our all, for we are ALL wretched sinners, but we must endeavour to try to follow Christ commandments in ALL things and examine what we have and how we can use that in the furtherance of Gods Kingdom, bearing in mind Christs words, " To them that have been given a lot, much will be expected". Luke 12:48.
So how much can we keep for ourselves, how much should we give?, i suppose this will ultimately depend on how close we are to Christ, how much we trust in him and not in ourselves, how great is our spirit of Love and Compassion and how much we value "Earthly Treasure" over "Heavenly Treasure". In short, as youve said yourself, "the state of our Heart".
Alls i can give is my own experience, i have been given much, both in terms of my earthly possessions and i believe in understanding Christs teaching on this matter, not that i'm rich in the context of the society i live in, in fact i'm regarded as one of poorest, "surviving" as many would say, on a basic state pension, but in world terms i see myself as incredibly rich and its a constant struggle with my own sinfulness, the demons of Greed and selfishness that infest my own soul, to allow Gods Love and Compassion to work through me and for me to become the person Christ wants me to be. But i try, i try every day to do more, to give more, both of myself and my possessions, knowing all the while i'm falling far short of what i should do and am forever in need of Gods Grace, forgiveness and Mercy.
I'll leave you with this last thought, many are our wants, but few are our needs, if you look at every "want" from the perspective of that child somewhere in Gods world that is starving , or who is sick, or who is forced to sell themselves just to survive, whose every waking hour is filled with pain and suffering, then it sort of puts the importance of our "wants" into perspective. I'm old enough to remember many years ago the phrase often used in Christian circles, "WWJD", "what would Jesus do", so ask yourself that question, in our situation, what would Jesus do?.
Some interesting points raised Brother Nick, which i will have to deal with later, as time has caught me up yet again
With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick
Steve
