Dear
@Brightfame52
Subject posed as a statement of fact: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
[1Jo 2:2 KJV] 2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Propitiation: Atonement
Atonement: Reparation for a wrong or injury
[Jhn 3:16-17 KJV] 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[Heb 2:9 KJV] 9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
[1Ti 2:3-6 KJV] 3
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
[2Co 5:14-15 KJV] 14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[Jhn 1:29 KJV] 29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[1Ti 4:10 KJV] 10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
[2Pe 3:9 KJV] 9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[2Pe 2:1 KJV] 1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
@Brightfame52 : If you were to read this verse carefully. For it should have you reconsider the position you are taking, but regardless of where you stand in regard to this, believer and unbeliever were also bought by Him, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't know of any other category both those two, because I do believe there can be no fence sitting with our Jesus. Stay too long on top of that fence, and it may just burn away under you.
[Jhn 12:32 KJV] 32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Note: I do not know exactly why you posted this thread. Maybe, to just stir the pot, or because in other places you were never engaged and apparently shown the verses given to you here on this thread by those who have replied to you. Just know that this of course does not affect predestination at all. That is a different question and in a way like this is God's way of saying, that nothing has, or will surprise Him. Of course, Jesus as also man was surprised, but again that is another subject for another time.
Scripture does not require the words ‘all’ and ‘blood’ in the same sentence. We have clear texts that Jesus died for the world/all, and clear texts that His blood is the means of remission. Combining them is legitimate contextual reading, not hair-splitting mind you.
With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
Christ4Ever, thank you for actually engaging the thread and providing the texts you believe establish universal atonement.
But simply assembling verses containing the words
“world,” “all,” and “every man” does not yet prove your conclusion.
That is precisely the issue under discussion.
The question is not:
Can you find verses containing universal language?
Of course you can.
The question is:
Do those passages explicitly teach that Jesus Christ substitutionarily bore the sins of every individual without exception, satisfied divine justice for every individual without exception, and obtained redemption for every individual without exception?
That still must be demonstrated.
You listed John 10 nowhere in your response, yet Jesus explicitly says:
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.”
— John 10:11
And:
“I lay down my life for the sheep.”
— John 10:15
Jesus then says to certain unbelievers:
“Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.”
— John 10:26
So Christ explicitly distinguishes between those who are
His sheep and those who are
not His sheep, while explicitly identifying the sheep as those for whom He lays down His life.
You cannot simply quote a verse containing the word
“world” and use that word as a theological solvent to dissolve Christ's own explicit definition of those for whom He lays down His life.
1 John 2:2
You quote:
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
But you assume the very thing you must prove.
The issue is not whether the word
“world” occurs.
The issue is whether John means
every individual without exception, or whether he is describing the international scope of Christ's people—Jews and Gentiles, people throughout the world and not merely the immediate community to which he writes.
Furthermore, if
propitiation means that Christ actually satisfied God's wrath against every individual's sins, then you have created another problem.
How can God eternally punish sins for which His wrath has already been propitiated by Christ?
A true propitiation is not merely a possibility of satisfaction.
It is the satisfaction of divine justice.
So your interpretation raises the question of double punishment: if Christ actually bore and satisfied God's justice for the sins of every individual, upon what just basis are those same sins eternally punished again?
Hebrews 2:9
You quote:
“That he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
Again, citing
“every” does not establish that the phrase means every individual distributively without exception.
The immediate context identifies those whom Christ brings to glory as
“many sons” and describes Him as the captain of
“their salvation”.
The same passage continues:
“For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.”
— Hebrews 2:11
And later:
“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
— Hebrews 2:16
The context must define the scope of the language.
You cannot isolate the English word
“every” and make it override everything else the author says about those Christ represents, sanctifies, and brings to glory.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
You quote:
“Who will have all men to be saved...”
and:
“Who gave himself a ransom for all...”
But again, the context matters.
Paul has just instructed Timothy to pray for:
“All men; For kings, and for all that are in authority.”
The point is not necessarily every individual one by one, but all kinds and classes of men.
That is especially relevant because the Gospel was spreading beyond one ethnic group to people from every class and nation.
And the question remains: what kind of ransom are you describing?
Did Christ actually pay the ransom price for every individual without exception?
If He did, why are some of those for whom the ransom was paid eternally imprisoned under the condemnation from which the ransom was supposed to deliver them?
A ransom that never actually redeems the person for whom it was paid is a strange kind of ransom indeed.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
You quote:
“If one died for all, then were all dead.”
Notice the result Paul immediately connects to those for whom Christ died:
“That they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them.”
The passage itself connects Christ's death with the resulting life of those represented in that death.
You are assuming that
“all” means every individual without exception while ignoring the immediate redemptive context concerning those who
live unto Him who died for them.
Again, you have cited universal terminology without proving your universalistic definition of that terminology.
John 1:29
John calls Christ:
“The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
But this is not a statement that every individual will have his sins taken away.
So what does
“world” mean?
That must be established from the context and from the rest of Scripture.
You cannot simply insert:
“every individual without exception”
into the verse and then claim that this is the explicit teaching of the text.
The very issue under debate is the meaning of these terms.
1 Timothy 4:10
You cite:
“The Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”
Again, the verse itself makes a distinction:
“specially of those that believe.”
Therefore, whatever universal sense is intended by
“Saviour of all men,” Paul immediately distinguishes believers in a special saving sense.
That distinction must be explained before the verse can simply be presented as proof that Christ substitutionarily bore the sins of every individual.
2 Peter 2:1
You say that false teachers were:
“denying the Lord that bought them.”
But this verse does not say:
“Christ substitutionarily bore all their sins, propitiated God's wrath against every one of their sins, reconciled them to God, justified them, and redeemed them from condemnation.”
You are importing your entire definition of universal atonement into the single word
“bought.”
The context and the Old Testament background of such language must be examined before assuming that the verse teaches universal penal substitution.
The Fundamental Question Still Remains
Your response has given us numerous texts containing:
World.
All.
Every man.
But you still have not answered the explicit texts identifying Christ's saving death with:
His Sheep.
His Church.
His People.
Jesus said:
“I lay down my life for the sheep.”
Paul said:
“Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.”
Isaiah says:
“For the transgression of my people was he stricken.”
The angel said:
“He shall save his people from their sins.”
Those are not vague descriptions.
They explicitly identify the objects and purpose of Christ's saving work.
So the real question is not:
“Can you produce a verse containing the word ‘all’?”
Of course you can.
The question is:
Why should your assumed definition of “all” and “world”—every individual without exception—be allowed to expand beyond the definite people Christ explicitly identifies as the objects of His saving death?
You accuse me of inference because I refuse to add
every individual without exception beyond the people explicitly identified in the passages.
But your position does exactly that.
John says:
and you insert:
“every individual without exception.”
Paul says:
and you insert:
“every individual distributively without exception.”
Hebrews says:
and you insert a universal theory of substitutionary atonement.
Those conclusions are not the words of the texts. They are your interpretation of the terms.
I am asking you to establish that interpretation rather than merely assume it.
The issue remains what I stated in the opening post:
Where does Scripture explicitly say that Christ substitutionarily bore the sins of every individual without exception?
Not merely that Christ died.
Not merely that Christ tasted death.
Not merely that Scripture uses the words
world or
all.
But that Christ actually bore the sins, satisfied divine justice, propitiated divine wrath, and obtained redemption for
every individual without exception.
That is the proposition you must establish.
And your list of verses containing universal terms does not, by itself, establish it.
