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A Strong Delusion?

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Hisalone

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Aug 23, 2007
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Hello all.

I would like to present this in true love to all of you as I truly care deeply for the Church and the importance to not be deceived.

A few Scriptures to get us started.


2Th 2:9-12 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

1Jo 4:1-3 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

What began this studying is the following prophecy.

"TODD BENTLEY and BOB JONES: 'The Third Wave is Here!' 12 Places for Healing and Revival to Start are Mentioned--but THIS TIME IT'S GLOBAL"

Ministry Report from Lakeland, Florida:

Below is a ministry report written by Linda Dodson, a church member of Albany Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Albany, Oregon. Linda is attending the revival meetings in Lakeland, Florida and sent us the following report of what happened on Monday, April 21, 2008:

Greetings from sunny Florida! The glory of God is growing. There is a tangible presence all over town. Are you feeling "the wind" of the Spirit blowing where you are? The "winds of change" angel appeared to Todd Bentley in Florida, and simultaneously to Bob Jones. I have some encouraging news for all of you, which come from the prophets who released it on Monday night at Ignited Church in Lakeland, Florida. Bob Jones gave Todd Bentley the "green light" to release every bit of this prophetic word. I took notes quickly, so I may have missed a few details, but in general, you are surely to be blessed by this word.

Todd Bentley called Bob Jones an elder prophet and talked with him for about an hour about the "Florida outpouring" here in Lakeland. Here are notes about their phone conversation:

On New Year's Eve, for 2008, God told Bob Jones that "the third wave was coming." Todd asked Bob what the third wave was. He said that Toronto was wave #1, Pensacola was wave #2, and the third wave is the "Winds of Change"--this move of God. This move will be a global move, traveling with signs and wonders all over the world! The third wave is here!

As a sign that this wave would be released from the Northwest, Bob shared that God said in the natural world, there would be extreme "winds and storms" out of Canada and the Northwest this year. (We had these storms in the Northwest this past winter and winds even now!) These natural winds would be followed by the winds of change. There would then be a move of the Holy Ghost, where entire towns would be shut down by the power of the Spirit. Revival will come as a Northwest wind.

It was also mentioned to "set up your sail"--the "Winds of Change" are blowing! There are 12 places specifically mentioned where revival will hit first (listed in the order mentioned):

Des Moines, Iowa; Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska; Kansas City, Missouri; Denver, Colorado; Nashville, Tennessee; Lakeland, Florida; Ohio; Charlotte, North Carolina; Albany, Oregon; Washington; and Redding, California. Of course, I did quite a bit of shouting when Todd named "Albany, Oregon." We have known for some time that Revival was on the way to Albany, and yet when I heard it declared by the prophets, it was a glorious moment. So for Albany and Oregonians, rejoice and get your hearts ready! Also mentioned were countries where it is moving first--England, Australia and New Zealand.

June 22 to July 22 will be a significant time in the spirit. (Todd didn't elaborate on this period.) This Revival will NOT be stopped.

There are several "clarion trumpets" (people God uses to deliver His word) and John Kilpatrick, former pastor of the Brownsville Assembly of God Church, where the Pensacola Revival took place, "probably has one of the clearest trumpets." Todd wanted to honor John Kilpatrick by naming him as Bob had spoken.

The third wave has begun! This wave promotes, prepares, purifies, pierces and inspires. We can expect to be changed by this move of God. The year 2008 will be the best of years for Christians and the worst of years for unbelievers, mainly due to their fear about the economy. There are doors now open in the spirit that will not shut!

The "Voice of Healing" move of the Spirit of years ago is here for a second time and it won't be stopped. This was a major healing move. This current move can be carried to other cities and countries. Wherever people move and who are carriers of this glory, it will move, like the ark was moved from place to place.

There will be one main thing required to see this outpouring continue: COMMITMENT--it will cost a lot to see it happen. (Todd has said twice now, that if this move requires him to lay down his own ministry, he will do it!) An invasion of glory for the hungry is on the way for you and your whole family!

I felt happy to be able to respond to the altar call as someone from Oregon to come and receive the "anointing and impartation" from Todd Bentley for Revival for Albany, Oregon. I was with others from the places mentioned above. I have been very hungry and contending for many years for Revival. I have gone wherever God has called me to experience His glory and to grow deeper in Him. So I am very encouraged by Monday night's word! The glory of God is coming to your town, too!

Blessings,

Reported by Linda Dodson
(attending from Albany Vineyard Christian Fellowship Church)

The reason this prompted my interest is because my hometown is mentioned as a location for this "move. " Several weeks back, this prophecy was shared with the church I was a part of. So you know I have not cut ties with the people at the church, I just no longer attend services regularly. But I digress. The pastor shared this to the congregation as truth and because he is the pastor and truly a man after God's own heart, they believed it without question and are looking forward to embracing this "move of God."

I, on the other hand, immediately discerned impending danger when this was presented and did a little research of my own along with other close brethren.

I will not go too much into detail right now, but perhaps as the thread progresses, more will come out. But to briefly understand what I am talking about, do a youtube search of Todd Bentley's videos with a discerning eye and ear.

What goes on in these meetings hosted by Mr. Bentley are a far cry from anything found in Scripture, unless Scripture specifically warns about such things. For instance, gold dust appearing, diamonds falling, angel feathers, female angels, appearance of drunkenness, uncontrollable spasms, etc. etc.

Todd also claims that his healing anointing comes from an angel (albeit a female one at that), but there is no record in all of Scripture of an angel giving somebody an anointing. This is very popular in New Age beliefs and experiences, and also is reminiscent of the "apparitions of the Virgin Mary" highly esteemed in Catholic circles. There is really nothing new, just basically repackaged. He claims to receive revelations directly from these angels yet in all of these supposed revelations, him who receives these revelations NEVER explains the process of properly testing the spirits. Rather, they blindly accept whatever the spirit brings as truth.

Before I post any more, I would like to see some initial responses and end with a prophecy from Scripture.

Isaiah 29:9-14 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Grace and peace

Hisalone
 
I HAVE 2 CHRISTIAN FRIENDS THAT ARE INTO THIS MOVEMENT. I DID SEE THE VIDEO FROM ALBANY VINEYARD CHURCH MY FRIEND SENT IT TO ME. I HAVE LOTS TO SAY ON THIS, I HAVE DELT WITH A LOT OF CHRISTIANS WHO I HAVE HAD CONTACT WITH OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS THAT ARE REALY INVOLVED WITH HEALING, VISIONS OF THEM SEEING GOD, walking with GOD and them walking with GOD in heaven. One thing they do not do is point them to the true gospel that can save there soul which is testifying BOTH TO THE JEWS, AND ALSO TO THE GREEKS, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD, AND FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. acts 20:21). BUT SHOWED first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the gentiles, that they should REPENT AND TURN TO GOD, AND DO WORKS MEET SUITABLE) FOR REPENTANCE. ACTS 26:20).

Moreover brethren, I declared unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand, by which also you are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. After that, He was seen of about 500 brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some have fallen asleep 1 Corinthians 15:1-6).

may the lord JESUS keep us spiritually awake.
 
Sadly, I am seeing this discussion all over the internet on forums. I have watched 2 videos as well. We need to be led by the Holy Spirit and if it is not found in the Bible then it is not true. All has to line up with the Word of God.

God bless

LLJ :love: :rainbow: :rose:
 
There has been quite a stir about this so-called revival in Lakeland Fl. Here is my response, BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE!

We are commanded throughout new testament scriptures to be led by HolySpirit NOT angels. I'm very much in agreement that some angels do God's bidding and that they are around us. I have witnessed them too but it is HolySpirit that was sent to direct, comfort, convict, teach and govern Jesus' Church, Not angels.

John 16:5-15
5 “But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and none of you has asked me where I am going. 6 Instead, you are very sad. 7 But it is actually best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Counselor* won’t come. If I do go away, he will come because I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me. 10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11 Judgment will come because the prince of this world has already been judged.
12 “Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14 He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. 15 All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.



2Corinthians 11:12-15
12 But I will continue doing this to cut the ground out from under the feet of those who boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They have fooled you by disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

Colossians 2:18
And don’t let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud.

If the Anointed One lives in you what kind of anointing can you possibly receive from Todd or Bob?

I am not saying that those involved do not love God or even hear from God but it seems that this move just like those mentioned from the past lack good, sound beneficial teaching and mature leadership.
 
Hisalone

I greet you in Jesus. Having looked at your profile, I observe that you withhold much info about yourself. Your location even, for example.

I do not need to know how many teeth you have, but some info is basic for us to communicate.

I see you as something of a mystery man. Sorry but this is as you present yourself on this forum

A strong delusion....indeed? And who are you, to suggest such?

Some have jumped in agreement with what you say.....but I do not.

"Then one of the Council stood up a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, held in respect by all the people and commanded them to put the Apostles outside for a little while.....

And said unto them, "Men of Israel take heed to yourselves as to what you intend to do regarding these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up claiming to be somebody. A number of men about 400 joined him. He was killed and all obeyed him were scattered and it came to nothing.

After this man Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away many after him. He also perished and all who obeyed him were dispersed.

And now I say unto you, keep away from these man and let them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men it will come to nothing: but if it is of God you cannot overthrow it....lest you even be found to fight against God"

Acts ch 5 v 34.....

We live in a day when anything relating to (the hated Jesus) is condemed without thought. Bros/Sis let us us not fall into the catogory of those who are alien to His cause.

"go and tell John, said Jesus, the things you have heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them......." Luke 7 v 22

Tell John.....tell John....tell John.
Maybe there is a John reading here.........Do not give up hope.

"go and tell John, said Jesus, the things you have heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them...
 
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Stephen

Hisalone

I greet you in Jesus

Thank you. Likewise I greet you in Christ Jesus.


Having looked at your profile, I observe that you withhold much info about yourself. Your location even, for example.

I do not need to know how many teeth you have, but some info is basic for us to communicate.

I see you as something of a mystery man. Sorry but this is as you present yourself on this forum

I apologize for presenting myself that way. I, personally, do not pay too much attention to profiles. I can often tell the stuff I need to know about individuals by reading their words. Nevertheless, I visited your profile and I understand that according to your birthdate, I shall intreat you as an elder. By the way, I still have all my teeth except my four wisdom teeth.

A strong delusion....indeed? And who are you, to suggest such?

Some have jumped in agreement with what you say.....but I do not.

Stephen, I am not here to gain folks towards agreeing with me. I expected much of the opposite, rather. I am just doing as I feel led in presenting this. You will notice I have not posted in a couple weeks due to the time I have been battling with this subject in prayer since, as I said before, it hits so close to home. If you must know, that home is Nebraska in the U.S..

You ask who I am to make such suggestions. I do not understand what your implications are or what you are after. Are you asking me my credentials?


"Then one of the Council stood up a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, held in respect by all the people and commanded them to put the Apostles outside for a little while.....

And said unto them, "Men of Israel take heed to yourselves as to what you intend to do regarding these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up claiming to be somebody. A number of men about 400 joined him. He was killed and all obeyed him were scattered and it came to nothing.

After this man Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away many after him. He also perished and all who obeyed him were dispersed.

And now I say unto you, keep away from these man and let them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men it will come to nothing: but if it is of God you cannot overthrow it....lest you even be found to fight against God"

Acts ch 5 v 34.....

There is a big difference between what this portion of Scripture is referring to and what I am referring to. Read again the first two Scriptures I posted. God moves alright, but it is He who sends the delusion. What is going on is all in fulfillment of what is written in the Holy Scriptures. I am not fighting against a move of God, I am warning about being caught up and deceived by lying signs and wonders, false prophets and teachers, and unscriptural doctrine. I do this with a genuine love for my brethren who have yet to be informed, and pray God that He lifts from the deceived eyes the spirit of deep sleep in the name of Jesus Christ. Please understand that even if you do not agree. This has weighed heavily on my heart and has grieved my spirit every time I have watched what I see coming out of Florida. I see a prophet trying to call fire down from heaven, creating an experience for those in attendance. Which brings me to my next point.

"go and tell John, said Jesus, the things you have heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them......." Luke 7 v 22

After spending a bit of time watching some random videos on youtube or Godtube of these meetings, I do not see an emphasis on the Gospel being preached. I do not see an emphasis on deep repentance, denying of self, carrying the cross, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ I am not seeing all the counsel of God being proclaimed. If the Gospel was at the center of these meetings, that should be readily apparent with any video I watch. I am not the only person who has noticed this either. This type of “revival” focuses on emotions and feelings and a supernatural experience whether it be visions, angelic visitation, gold dust, healings, and other various signs and wonders. The Church ought not seek after such signs and wonders lest we become the harlot gone a-******* after other gods. Amen.

Everyone, Please seriously consider the Scriptures I have posted and jiggyfly has posted. LadylovesJesus is exactly right when she puts an emphasis on checking everything against Scripture.

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Grace and peace, brethren

Hisalone
 
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Any speaker (evangelist or otherwise)in the 21st century who has an adequate sound system at his disposal does not need to yell regardless of the size of the room or number of people. More than likely in the very early days of Pentecostalism yelling was needed because public address systems were either primitive or non-existent. But, that is not the case today.

I've been to healing meetings where God's power was very present, so I understand that there was a lot of excitement in the auditorium during these meetings, but I doubt that the noise level was anything that the people working the sound board couldn't handle. I believe that Mr. Bentley's yelling was for dramatic effect more than to make himself heard and I don't believe that God needs a dramatist.

SLE
 
Some thoughts over the time I've been checking out these things. I am now so much more in favour with the Grace of God at work in my live. Todd Bentley etc can we knock all of it or is there something of the precious Pearl of Great price in it all???

Is this the same as what some call the ''Toronto Blessing'' ???

16 raised from the dead & they are going to check medics & follow-up on these miracals.

How do we sort out the sheep fron the goats???
''Trust no man'' me first, how about you. ??
Don't we all ''in Christ'' have all that is Christ at work in us & available to us. Therefore each of use must ''discern'' for our selves. We can use our conscience & the bible.

Those who may miss-lead are I'm afraid, Gods problem. Vengence is His.
Who needs our prayers most the new Christian OR those (Like me & you) how led others astray.??
Should we also be as wary of those around us & who preach & teach us???

Are we as ''discerning'' in this respect as we should be???

Did ALL come to Chirst in the earlier ''revivals'' of our history??
Were all those around Christ Himself perfect???

Are we suposed to smack people around the head with a Black floppy bible if we if they don't jump up & down & spout the perfect ''word of God''?
''Driven'' people are very much ''exposed'' to 'all things'
especially if they are not acountable to the body or others with gifting & discernment.
Surely such as Todd & co.are a more meaningful example to those who are questionable in most need, coming of the streets & away from great temptations. Eg. The homeless, those destitute, alcoholics, prostitutes etc.
We in the UK in the freer non- denominational movements tend to wear normal every day clothing when meeting together. Probably as an acknowledgement that Christ looks at what is going on internally.
 
Some have jumped in agreement with what you say.....but I do not.

"Then one of the Council stood up a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, held in respect by all the people and commanded them to put the Apostles outside for a little while.....

And said unto them, "Men of Israel take heed to yourselves as to what you intend to do regarding these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up claiming to be somebody. A number of men about 400 joined him. He was killed and all obeyed him were scattered and it came to nothing.

After this man Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away many after him. He also perished and all who obeyed him were dispersed.

And now I say unto you, keep away from these man and let them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men it will come to nothing: but if it is of God you cannot overthrow it....lest you even be found to fight against God"

Acts ch 5 v 34.....

We live in a day when anything relating to (the hated Jesus) is condemed without thought. Bros/Sis let us us not fall into the catogory of those who are alien to His cause.

"go and tell John, said Jesus, the things you have heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them......." Luke 7 v 22

Tell John.....tell John....tell John.
Maybe there is a John reading here.........Do not give up hope.

"go and tell John, said Jesus, the things you have heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them...

Amen Stephen. The gifts of 1 Corinthians are alive and well today inclusive of healing, prophesy, and discernment (all 9 of them).
 
This Scripture was brought up to me about this more than just here at TalkJesus, but also in personal encounters.

"Then one of the Council stood up a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, held in respect by all the people and commanded them to put the Apostles outside for a little while.....

And said unto them, "Men of Israel take heed to yourselves as to what you intend to do regarding these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up claiming to be somebody. A number of men about 400 joined him. He was killed and all obeyed him were scattered and it came to nothing.

After this man Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away many after him. He also perished and all who obeyed him were dispersed.

And now I say unto you, keep away from these man and let them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men it will come to nothing: but if it is of God you cannot overthrow it....lest you even be found to fight against God"

Acts ch 5 v 34.....

I do not really see this as applying to this particular "outpouring", "revival" or whatever you call it.

First off, The Pharisees and the Christians of this time period did not have the New Testament as we have it today. We can all agree that everything in it is inspired by God, and is our final authority, not experiences, visions, angels, etc. It all must line up completely with Scripture. (Remember that the New Testament Church still used the Hebrew Scriptures as foundational for what was going on and what they were teaching, so it all still remained with Scripture.) That being said, if this were truly a move of God, everything that happens and is touted as from God must have some Scriptural basis at least. The problem is, many of these signs, visions, etc. have absolutely no positive Scriptural support at all (gold dust, female angels, partial healings, uncontrollable laughter, etc.)

Furthermore, many of you have probably heard of the "Toronto Blessing", "Brownsville/Pensacola Revival," and others. These were said to be major revivals, but there is no evidence that revival occurred, and it has been long enough since then to be able to see that. My point is that this one in Lakeland looks exactly like those others. Most of the same experiences, signs, and wonders, are being hyped as evidence of revival. They also preach this unscriptural belief that in the end there will be huge revival, and great earthly power will come into the Church. Paul in his epistles warns of the exact opposite. Who are we to believe?

Several Scriptures come to mind about this.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first (not revival) , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
My words added.
2Pe 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2Th 2:9-11 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The common argument is that it is okay to follow after a flawed ministry not preaching sound doctrine, just as long as you are truly after more of a relationship with Jesus. I see this as a very dangerous way of thinking, and Scripture makes it very clear. Doctrine is of utmost importance here. Many are willing to look past false doctrines and strange practices if they "feel" God in it. This is a very serious issue with God. Please consider the following.

Ephesians 4:14-16 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive ; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1 Timothy 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine
; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee .

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness
: from such withdraw thyself
.

2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth,
and shall be turned unto fables.

2 John 1:9,10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God . He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house
, neither bid him God speed:

Are we beginning to understand how important doctrine is? Ministries such as these where "revival breaks out" are so full of unScriptural teachings that it grieves my spirit.

What I find questionable about the ministries we are speaking of here is this; Why are those ministries with the greatest amount of reported signs and wonders also the ones who teach some very blatant false doctrine? It begs to be answered. Perhaps the answer is found in Scripture.

Deu 13:1-4 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Notice that from these prophets or dreamers (Mr. Bentley and others claim to be both) there was the definite possibility of the wonder to happen. One thing I find very disconcerting here is that these folks urge their audiences to seek out supernatural encounters with angels especially. The Hebrew word for 'gods' used here can consequently also refer to angels. These men are urging their listeners to follow after other gods plain and simple whether they know it or not. You will also notice that these false prophets are actually in some way commissioned by God Himself to prove to Him where your heart is. On a side note, reading one more verse, you will find that in Old Testament times, these prophets' reward was death. :shock:

I know there are disagreements with my exposing of this false movement. I don't have all truth. To duck my head in the sand and wait for this movement to cease just like the others before it, I would be doing a disservice to the Church and disobeying Scripture. We have a God-breathed resource in Scripture and His Holy Spirit to teach us about it. Signs and wonders follow the preaching of the Gospel. I know the gifts of the Spirit are still alive today, but the enemy walks to and fro throughout the earth, and up and down in it, counterfeiting everything God has already done. Know too that the fruits of the Spirit are also alive, and Jesus did not say that we will know them by their gifts, but rather by their fruits. In the videos I watch coming out of Lakeland, I see not the fruits of the Spirit on display, but rather the works of the flesh and an elaborate scheme.

More on that later.

Grace and peace, brethren.

Hisalone
 
Bentley

So sad, I saw a video tonight on a site and it had a little girl begging Bentley not to touch her and do to her what he did to the others...
 
The common argument is that it is okay to follow after a flawed ministry not preaching sound doctrine, just as long as you are truly after more of a relationship with Jesus. I see this as a very dangerous way of thinking, and Scripture makes it very clear. Doctrine is of utmost importance here. Many are willing to look past false doctrines and strange practices if they "feel" God in it. This is a very serious issue with God.

Well done Hisalone.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
 
Coconut added:

Jud 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is very interesting that you post this. Just last night on the telephone with a sister in Christ, I was teaching her about these specific verses. Jude wanted to tell his audience about the saving grace through faith in Christ Jesus, but because of the deception threatening the Church, he found it more necessary to warn them of the danger. I truly believe we are in the same place today, and the closer we get to the end, the more deception will find its way into the Church.

My brethren, contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

Amen

Grace and peace

Hisalone
 
Furthermore, many of you have probably heard of the "Toronto Blessing", "Brownsville/Pensacola Revival," and others. These were said to be major revivals, but there is no evidence that revival occurred, and it has been long enough since then to be able to see that.

I can't comment on the Pensacola/BrownsvilleAOG Revival because I don't know enough about that congregation or the AOG in general. But, I do want to offer a few words with regard to the Toronto Airport Vineyard Revival, aka "The Toronto Blessing".

I did not personally attend the Toronto Blessing, but, having been an active part of the Vineyard movemernt in the Cincinnati, OhioUSA area for a bit over twenty years, I am betting that there is little comparison between Toronto and the Lakeland, Florida meetings. Our goal in the Vineyard movement has always been that the Holy Spirit is the star attraction - never the preacher, never the musicians & singers. We are ALWAYS low-key. Excitement is not artificially generated. Any excitement or laughter is a genuine response to what the Spirit is doing. I don't see that in the Lakeland videos.

As to supposed lack of evidence that revival occurred in Toronto, have you contacted the Toronto Airport Vineyard about that? Surely they can provide some information on the fallout from those meetings.

As to your reference to uncontrolled laughter, Galatians 5:22 speaks of the Holy Spirit imparting joy. Why wouldn't the Sprit grant overflowing Joy, the manifestation of which He controls (not us), to people suffering from deep depression?

I'd like to respond to more of your post, but that's all I have time for now.

SLE
 
All the arguments mentioned here against the so called Florida Revival I have heard over a life time. Every time in fact that something happens in a place, fellowship, whatever, and people seem to be blessed as a result.

I was thrilled when my children got a touch from Jesus. They were laughing and rolling on the floor HaHaHa Dancing around indeed. Why was I thrilled? Because I knew they had been spoiled for the world. Once, yes only once, you have to know His touch of joy and happiness, the outlook on life thereon is never the same. They are not the same either and neither was I. "He that drinketh of this water shall never thirst again" Who said this?

I am not aware of the ministry of your church, its outreach, and the folks you minister to, the people in your area who are in need.

But where I reside, we need 'the power of God' such as we have received in the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' As I go out to minister to the lost, on my city street, with younger men to help me of course, I am more aware than ever in mylifetime that I face hostility, but I also face immense need also such as I have not seen before in my lifetime.

The people that come into our church today are so messed up.......I could go into detail. If folks were to come with the scripture......it would be no good. You need more

We cannot dot every i, and cross every t as we reach the lost today. Some are so messed up, you could not imagine. We start by reaching out to help in Jesus.

Verses I quoted Acts 5 may not particularly apply.....but it is the principle.

"The letter killeth............." Some will smack you in the face with the letter, that is all they have.

There are desperate people in my town. It will do no good to smack them with the bible. Better leave my bible at home and take what is in my heart.

I do not criticize Tod Bentley....why should I. I am not on the scene. It is my prayer that all those who 'stand up for Jesus' be blessed
 
SLE

As to supposed lack of evidence that revival occurred in Toronto, have you contacted the Toronto Airport Vineyard about that? Surely they can provide some information on the fallout from those meetings.

I may have to look into that, but contacting them may give a biased opinion or spin on the facts. I am not saying they are dishonest, but perhaps an unbiased source would be best.

Our goal in the Vineyard movement has always been that the Holy Spirit is the star attraction - never the preacher, never the musicians & singers. We are ALWAYS low-key.

Good!

I did not personally attend the Toronto Blessing, but, having been an active part of the Vineyard movemernt in the Cincinnati, OhioUSA area for a bit over twenty years, I am betting that there is little comparison between Toronto and the Lakeland, Florida

The comparisons are actually quite obvious. It is not necessary to elaborate, however a trusted brother of mine has been to Toronto and has seen videos and heard the reports out of Lakeland, and agrees that the similarities are quite apparent.

As to your reference to uncontrolled laughter, Galatians 5:22 speaks of the Holy Spirit imparting joy. Why wouldn't the Sprit grant overflowing Joy, the manifestation of which He controls (not us), to people suffering from deep depression?

I am a bit puzzled by this statement because as you well know, one of the fruits of the Spirit is in fact self-control. My question to you is; Why would the Holy Spirit cause a manifestation diametrically opposed to one of His fruits?

I truly believe He grants overflowing joy. I can testify that I experience this every day of my life, and one of my sisters was delivered from an eight year deep depression and everytime I speak with her, we laugh, we encourage, we teach, etc, etc. You would never know she was ever depressed.

Stephen

But where I reside, we need 'the power of God' such as we have received in the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' As I go out to minister to the lost, on my city street, with younger men to help me of course, I am more aware than ever in mylifetime that I face hostility, but I also face immense need also such as I have not seen before in my lifetime.

The people that come into our church today are so messed up.......I could go into detail. If folks were to come with the scripture......it would be no good. You need more

We cannot dot every i, and cross every t as we reach the lost today. Some are so messed up, you could not imagine. We start by reaching out to help in Jesus

Awesome to hear! :thumbs_up I would love to hear some of the stories about how the power of God has ministered to these people's needs. I am a bit of a different kind of minister in this regard. I do not really do any ministering through a church, but I figure wherever I am, I bring part of the Church with me. However, I do share scripture with those I minister to and they are often very surprised that it speaks life to them where they are. You may say you do not come with scripture, however, the manner in which you do come is consistent with scripture.

It will do no good to smack them with the bible.

Because I quote alot of Scripture, I take this as you referring to me as one who acts this way Maybe I am reading this all wrong. For the record, I do not, sorry if this is the impression I give.

Grace and peace.

Hisalone
 
Re: A Strong Delusion

I am a bit puzzled by this statement because as you well know, one of the fruits of the Spirit is in fact self-control. My question to you is; Why would the Holy Spirit cause a manifestation diametrically opposed to one of His fruits?

I'm not talking about Holy Spirit empowered self-control in humans. I'm talking about Him bringing miraculous emotional healing to persons who've positioned themselves to be healed, just as He brings physical healing.

"In Lystra, there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, 'Stand up on your feet!' At that, the man jumped up and began to walk." (Acts 14:8-10NIV)

SLE
 
A Scriptural analysis of the Florida Healing Outpouring
Written by Chris Perver
Sunday, 01 June 2008


Part 1

When the disciples asked the Lord what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age, His first words to them were ones of warning. "Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many", Matthew 24:4-5. These words might have come as a surprise to the disciples. Why did the Lord take the time to warn them against being deceived before even beginning to answer their question? We would do well to consider these words of warning as the time of the Lord's return draws near.

The Lord Jesus Christ warned His disciples of a coming day in which false messiahs (or 'anointed ones') and false prophets would rise up, performing great signs and wonders, and would deceive many people (Matthew 24:24). The Lord said that these signs and wonders would be so convincing that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the genuine believers. The Apostle Peter also warned that just as there were false prophets among the nation of Israel, so false teachers would rise up among the Church (2nd Peter 2:1-3). These false teachers would secretly bring in damnable heresies, even going so far as denying the Lord Jesus Christ, and would make merchandise of their followers through their smooth words. I believe we are now living in the days the Lord spoke of.

With the advent of satellite television and the Internet, great opportunities have opened up for the proclamation of the Gospel. But just as there is great opportunity to enlighten people to the truth of God's Word, there is also great opportunity to deceive. You wouldn't buy a second-hand car from a dishonest salesman. Then why are so many Christians prepared to accept dodgy doctrine from false teachers? Paul said of the Bereans that they were more noble than the Jews of Thessalonica, because they "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so", Acts 17:10-11. Paul commended the Bereans because they weren't prepared to just to take his word for it, they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether he was telling them the truth. The Scriptures are the litmus test of truth. If anything doesn't match up with what the Word of God teaches, we can safely reject it. And so we hold the 'Florida Healing Revival' up to the light of the Scriptures to see whether this is a 'move of God' or not.

The roots of the movement

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.

In an unprecedented move, the managers of GOD TV cancelled their busy programming schedule in order to cover what they believe to be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a church in Lakeland, Florida. The services are being broadcast across the world through satellite television and the Internet. Many people are coming forward claiming to have been healed of all sorts of ailments. People are claiming that revival has broken out in America, and that it is spreading across the globe. But what is the driving force behind this revival? To find that out, we must first examine where this movement began.

Todd Bentley believes that this movement is the "third wave" of revival following the outbreaks at the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church in Canada, and the Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, Florida. The 'Toronto Blessing', as it has come to be known, broke out at the Toronto Airport Church in January, 1994. Randy Clarke, a pastor of a Vineyard Church in St Louis, Missouri, met with a man called Rodney Howard-Browne in Tulsa, Oklahoma, after having been inspired by his ministry. Rodney Howard-Browne claims to be the father of the 'laughing revival', in which members of his congregation would suddenly burst out into uncontrollable fits of laughter while he is preaching from the Scriptures. Browne has been afflicted with the phenomenon himself on occasion, and believes it to be a manifestation of the presence of God. John Arnott, a senior pastor at the Toronto Airport Church, invited Randy to speak at one of his meetings. Both pastors were surprised after members of the congregation began to laugh hysterically, cry, leap, dance and roar like lions after hearing Randy preach. They put it down to a move of the Spirit of God, which has since spread throughout the world.

The revival at the Brownsville Assembly of God in 1995 was an offshoot of the Toronto Blessing in Canada the previous year. Several leaders in Brownsville had visited Toronto shortly before the outbreak in their own church. Just weeks prior to the outpouring at Brownsville, Pastor John Kilpatrick sent his wife to visit the Toronto Airport Church to experience what was going on there. During a trip to England in January 1995, Hill received an 'impartation' from Pastor Sandy Millar of Holy Trinity Brompton Anglican Church, a man who has done much to spread the Toronto spirit in this country. Steve Hill had also visited Toronto on several occasions. Just a few months later revival was to break out in Brownsville following one of Steve's sermons. During a time of prayer, Kilpatrick claimed that God told him that if he would turn his church into a "house of prayer", He would pour out His Spirit on the congregation. He said he was told that this revival would "catch on across the nation", and eventually spread throughout the entire United States of America. During these prayer meetings, Kilpatrick said he would often weep and shake uncontrollably and felt a strange sensation in his stomach, which he attributed to the presence of God. Kilpatrick's grandmother had died several weeks before the revival broke out, and he had asked Steve Hill to preach on Father's Day. When Kilpatrick entered the church the night before the meeting, he felt an unusual presence, and said it was as if he had walked into "the front cutting edge of the glory of God that God was about to send to Brownsville on Father's Day". He said, "When I walked into it… it just took my breath. I had chill bumps instantly that hurt... I mean hair on my arms and legs was standing out, you know, and they hurt!" After the Father's Day service, Steve Hill opened the altar for prayer and 1000 people came forward to pray. As they were praying, Kilpatrick said that he heard a noise like a "rushing mighty wind" pass over his right shoulder. As he turned to look over his shoulder, his ankles slipped and his knees bowed out, and he felt like a "river of the glory of God" was flowing through his legs. "It felt like a telephone pole," he said. "An endless telephone pole was coming through my legs and it was coming in the church". Kilpatrick then leaped into the pulpit and exclaimed, "My God, church, get in! This is it! This is what we've been praying for! Get in!" Kilpatrick said of this particular manifestation, that, "anywhere people were standing in the way of that river, you could just look at them and they'd go down in the Spirit. You could feel the literal current of that river". People would fall out under the power of God and be unable to move for several hours. At other times this unseen force would pull the entire congregation around the room. Kilpatrick said he was surprised that many of the people experiencing these manifestations were not even Christians. He later justified this unscriptural phenomenon by claiming that "when revival breaks out, the Christians run from it and the sinners run to it". Other unusual manifestations occurred in Brownsville following the revival. Young children would cry after claiming to have seen angels hovering in the church, there was a thick blue mist that would sometimes hang in the air, and on one occasion Kilpatrick said the Spirit of God picked him up and threw him sideways "ten or twelve feet" across the platform.

This latest revival in Florida is also an offspring of the Toronto and Pensacola outpourings, just as Todd Bentley claims. Both Todd Bentley and the church he is preaching at are closely linked with Rodney Howard-Browne and the Brownsville Assembly of God. Todd Bentley preached at Brownsville in August 2004. When he came to speak at the church, the pastor said he had read about Bentley two years previous, and wanted to get to know him better. In March 1993 a pastor by the name of Karl Strader invited Rodney Howard-Browne to take a series of revival meetings in Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland, Florida. Browne led sixteen weeks of revival meetings over the following ten months. The revival at Toronto was just beginning as Browne's meetings were coming to an end. The Carpenter's Home Church were eventually forced to sell their building after a drop in membership meant they could no longer afford to run it. One of the congregations that were formed following the break up of the Carpenter's Home Church was the Ignited Church, also based in Lakeland, Florida. It is Karl Strader's son, Stephen Strader, who has invited Todd Bentley to hold a week of revival meetings at his Ignited Church. They are now expecting this revival to last up to three to four months. The Florida Outpouring has also been characterized by similar manifestations to the Toronto and Pensacola revivals. Bentley is afflicted with a constant twitch in his neck, which makes his head shake from side to side repeatedly. On one occasion members of his staff became so 'drunk in the Spirit', they were incapable of interviewing those who claimed to have been healed. One staff member remarked that the 'presence' was strongest closest to where Bentley's pulpit was located. Two women came up to tell Bentley how they had been healed. Both were twitching very badly. When Bentley asked them to stand by his pulpit, they became bent in two and started to shake violently as if they were being attacked from behind by some unseen force.

As you can see, the roots of the Lakeland revival run deep. This is not an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, nor does it seem to be a sovereign move of God. It does seem to be a carefully concerted effort by men to spread the Toronto spirit across the world.
 
Part 2

The purpose behind the Florida Outpouring

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the pre-eminence.

If we want to find out what the purpose of this revival is, we need to look at what is being taught by its leaders. You might be forgiven for thinking that a spiritual revival in the Church would result in Christians coming into a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. This is not the case with the Florida Outpouring. In fact Bentley says that God has specifically instructed him not to teach people about Jesus Christ. Instead he believes that God wants him to teach about "the angel". Bentley related this fact at one of his meetings. "God, why do I want people to believe in the angel?", he questioned, "Isn't it about getting the people to believe in Jesus?". Even Bentley seemed surprised by this unusual request from the Father. The response came back, "The people already believe in Jesus, but the Church doesn't believe in the supernatural". You will not see Bentley read from the Scriptures. You may not even hear him talk much about God or Jesus Christ, despite all the miracles that seem to be taking place. But you will hear him talk about angels and the supernatural. And so it seems that the purpose of this revival is to get people focused on the supernatural.

Of course we know that there are two types of supernatural forces, the angelic and the demonic. The question then must be asked, which side is Bentley advocating the Church believe in? To answer that question we must look to the Scriptures for evidence of how to recognize which side is which. We can't always trust our own judgement, for 2nd Corinthians 11:4 states that Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light in order to deceive. Just because someone mentions the name of Jesus Christ and says they are a Christian, or just because people are claiming to be miraculously healed, that doesn't mean to say that this movement is of God. Pharaoh's magicians were able to replicate some of the miracles that Moses performed by the power of God through their demonic power (Exodus 7:8-11). And in the book of Acts, a woman possessed by a spirit of divination followed Paul and Silas through the streets, crying out, "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation", Acts 16:17. Paul cast the demon out of her as he was not prepared to receive the testimony of a demonic spirit. Neither did Jesus Christ allow the demons to speak when He cast them out for this same reason (Mark 1:34). The Bible warns us to "believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world", 1st John 4:1. How do we test the spirits to see whether they are of God or not? "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.", 1st John 4:2-3. Demonic spirits do recognize the authority of Jesus Christ, but they will not glorify Him. Todd Bentley's ministry stands or falls on the Person of Jesus Christ. Does Jesus Christ have the pre-eminent place in his life, or do angels have the prominent place? Is Jesus Christ glorified through these healings, if that's what they are, or is Todd Bentley glorified?
 
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