A Word Study of Ekklesia and Church

[tulsa 2011]

A Word Study of Ekklesia and Church

If you follow the thread in scripture from II Kings 21: 13, to Isaiah 29: 16 and on to Jeremiah 18: 1-7 and then to Isaiah 50: 1, and Jeremiah 3: 8, and Hosea 7: 7-8, then to Romans 9: 24-25 (Hosea 2: 23), then on to Romans 2: 17-29, Romans 9: 6-8, and Galatians 4: 22-29, Israel of the Old Covenant was transformed, changed into the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5 and the chosen generation of I Peter 2: 9.

Now, look at Ephesians 2: 11-20: "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

The Gentiles were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, but in Christ, fulfilling Hosea 2: 23 (Romans 9: 24-25), the Gentiles are said to be made close by the blood of Christ (verse 13) so that in verse 19 they are "fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God."

Man made theology has re-defined things as usual and has given us two categories of thought, two alternatives for understanding the transformation of Israel, or to dispensationalism, there was no transformation of Israel as II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 predicted.

In the man made theology of dispensationalism either Israel was replaced by the church, now a capital C Church as begun by the Catholics, or God has two peoples, Israel, the Jews, and the capital C Church. Dispensationism violates what Christ says in John 10: 16.

It is interesting the way Paul deals with what to call that Israel which in I Peter 2: 5-9 is said to be a spiritual house and its members a chosen generation.

Had he "spoon fed" his followers and said over and over in a very explicit way that physical or national Israel was no longer the people of God and that there was another Israel in Christ which is now the people of God, he might have offended the Jews. Paul wanted the Jews to be born again, or transformed, into a spiritual life in Christ.

But those who are born again can put his texts in Romans 2, and 9 and in Galatians 3, 4 and 6 together and come up with his doctrine that there is an Israel which is of God (Galatians 6: 16), as different from "another Israel" in Romans 9: 6-8, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

The meaning the Apostles gave to the Greek word ekklesia is part of the key which would help clarify this problem of whether Israel was replaced by the church or physical Israel now stands beside the church as a people of God. If you say that God now has two peoples, that is, two saved groups, you are rejecting what Christ said in John 10: 16, "...there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Beginning with the Geneva Bible ekklesia was, unfortunately, translated as church and the King James also translates it as church. It is translated also as church in the newer versions.

Christ said in John 14: 6, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Christ himself is the truth. If you reject a part of his truth, you reject him as truth.

If you disagree with Jesus Christ and say God has two groups of people, then you have another Jesus and another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

One part of the fundamental problem with the teaching that God now has two groups of saved people is that the original meaning of church is not the original meaning of ekklesia. The Greek word kuriakon, related to Kuriokon, pertaining a lord, not the Lord, is closer in meaning to the original meaning of church. But the word kuriakon is not in the Greek New Testament.

The meaning of church was re-defined to serve some purpose.

So, what was the original meaning of ekklesia? Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for number 1577, ekklesia, says the word means "a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven, or both), assembly, church."

We will see that the calling out part of the definition of ekklesia is not limited to a calling out to God nor even to a calling out to a meeting of Christians, but meant a calling out to a non-religious meeting.

And the meaning of ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation does not match up with the original meaning of church which is closer to the place for worshipping a pagan lord.

The Catholic Church made the elect, the Body of Christ, equal to the ekklesia, the meeting, assembly or congregation. In doing so, the Catholic Church changed the meaning of ekklesia as a meeting to an institution of man standing equal to and really replacing physical Israel. Physical Israel in scripture was not replaced by the meeting, now called the church. Instead, physical and national Israel was changed into Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, the Israel of God. That is, physical Israel was transformed into the Israel which is of God (Galatians 6: 16), to distinguish it from physical Israel as in Romans 9: 6-8, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

To be continued

 

[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.


In your previous posts and the current post you are constantly using a certain phrase,
i.e., 'man made theology'. The usage of this phrase 'man made theology' implies that there
exists a God made theology. Which of course is impossible since all theology by definition
is the result of the human understanding of revelation. Theology is simply man's attempts to
understand the revelation of God. So by definition there never can be a theology of divine origin.
All theology is of human origin, theology is the strictly human study of divine revelation.


So to use the phrase 'man made theology' creates a contradiction. It may be better to just
say 'theology' or 'theologies'. I am not sure whether you are aware Tulsa but there never can
be a theology that will harness the scripture absolutely. Since we know that God's ways are
unknowlable and who can understand them. Therefore Tulsa, theology never can fully explain
the revelation of God. A sobering thought for any budding theologian. The best approach in
subscribing to any theology if one wishes to embark on such an enterprise. Is to be fully aware
that there are inbuilt limitations imposed by the limited human understanding of revelation.
All theology will of course contain error and hopefully not heresy.


So if you do not employ this phrase anymore on TJ you will make me happy Tulsa.

 

[tulsa 2011]

The topic here is not the definition of "man made theology." It is a word study of ekklesia and church. The word theology is not in scripture. Words that are in scripture can be used instead of "man made theology." Apostasia, translated as falling away (II Thessalonians 2: 3), planes , translated as error (II Thessalonians 2: 11), muthos, translated as fables (I Timothy 1: 4, II Timothy 4: 4, Titus 1: 14, II Peter 1: 16) and traditions of men (Mark 7: 8, especially Matthew 15: 6) could all be used to describe what John Darby, C.I. Scofield and others taught. But doing this can offend their followers perhaps more than calling it "man made theology." It is a tradition of men since it has been around since its beginning in the 1830's.

But I am not going to be lured off topic by a prolonged argument over "man made theology" verses traditions of men, apostasy, fables, error, etc.

The meaning the Apostles gave to the Greek word ekklesia is part of the key which would help clarify this problem of whether Israel was replaced by the church or physical Israel now stands beside the church as a people of God. If you say that God now has two peoples, that is, two saved groups, you are rejecting what Christ said in John 10: 16, "...there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Beginning with the Geneva Bible ekklesia was, unfortunately, translated as church and the King James also translates it as church. It is translated also as church in the newer versions.

Christ said in John 14: 6, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Christ himself is the truth. If you reject a part of his truth, you reject him as truth.

If you disagree with Jesus Christ and say God has two groups of people, then you have another Jesus and another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

One part of the fundamental problem with the teaching that God now has two groups of saved people is that the original meaning of church is not the original meaning of ekklesia. The Greek word kuriakon, related to Kuriokon, pertaining a lord, not the Lord, is closer in meaning to the original meaning of church. But the word kuriakon is not in the Greek New Testament.

The meaning of church was re-defined to serve some purpose.

So, what was the original meaning of ekklesia? Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for number 1577, ekklesia, says the word means "a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven, or both), assembly, church."

We will see that the calling out part of the definition of ekklesia is not limited to a calling out to God nor even to a calling out to a meeting of Christians, but meant a calling out to a non-religious meeting.

And the meaning of ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation does not match up with the original meaning of church which is closer to the place for worshipping a pagan lord.

The Catholic Church made the elect, the Body of Christ, equal to the ekklesia, the meeting, assembly or congregation. In doing so, the Catholic Church changed the meaning of ekklesia as a meeting to an institution of man standing equal to and really replacing physical Israel. Physical Israel in scripture was not replaced by the meeting, now called the church. Instead physical and national Israel was changed into Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, the Israel of God. That is, physical Israel was transformed into the Israel which is of God (Galatians 6: 16), to distinguish it from physical Israel as in Romans 9: 6-8, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

The original 1828 Webster's Dictionary, defines "church" as:

"Church, n. [Sax. Circe, circ or cyric; Scots, kirk, which retains the Saxon pronunciation; D. Kerk; G. Kirche; Se. Kyrchia; Dan. Kirke; Gr. Kuriokon, a temple of God, from kuriakos, pertaining to a Lord, or to our Lord Jesus Christ, from kurios, a Lord; Russ. Tzerkou.] .1 A house consecrated to the worship of God, among christians; the Lord's house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word. The Greek ekklesia, from ekkalew, to call out or call together, denotes an assembly or collection. But kuriakos, kuriakon, are from kurios, Lord, a term applied by the early christians to Jesus Christ; and the house in which they worshipped was named from that title. So kuriaka signifies church goods, bona ecclesiastica; kuriakh, sc hmera, the Lord's day, dies dominica. 2. The collective body of christians, or of those who profess to believe in Christ, and acknowledge him to be the Savior of mankind. In this sense, the church is sometimes the Catholic or Universal Church. Johnson Enclyce. 3. A particular number of christians, united under one form of ecclesiastical government, in one creed, and using the same ritual or ceremonies; as the English church; the Gallican church; the Presbyterian church; the Romish church; the Greek church."

In Young's Concordance, the word kuriakon, related to Kuriokon, pertaining the a Lord, not the Lord, is not in the Greek New Testament. So, the word church as related to the Greek kuriakon or kuriokon, meaning a pagan lord, has no place in the New Testament Greek text. The word church was instead taken over from the pagans and used by the Catholic Church to indicate an institution which replaced physical Israel. And the word church, which was not a proper noun, was capitalized and made into the capital C Catholic Church. Luther, Calvin and other Reformation leaders failed to fully grasp the importance of this and allowed Christians to continue to call themselves the capital C Church.

Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible says that “church” comes from a word meaning “circle,” which is related to our word “circus.” Professor Lipsius (German theologian during the Reformation) also shows that “church” came from “circle.” Professor A. F. Fausett of Home Bible Study Dictionary” agrees with Professor Lipsius. The exhaustive ten volume Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature under the word “church” states that:

“It was probably connected with the Latin circus, circulus, and with the Greek kuklos. Lipsius, who was the first to reject the received tradition, was probably right in his suggestion” (Vol. II, p. 322).

Robert Brown’s work The Myth of Kirke” also confirms that “kirke” (church) means “Circle” or “Circular” (p. 22).

Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, under the entry “church” says: “No doubt the word means ‘a circle.’ The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular [witness circular Stonehenge, one of the most ancient stone megaliths on earth]. Compare Anglo-Saxon ‘circe,’ a small church, with ‘circol,’ a circle.”

In Scotland it is called “Kirk” and in Gemany it is “Kirche,” in England it is the word “Circe” (the “c” having a “k” sound).

According to Brown’s book, “Kirke/Circe” was also the name of a Goddess: "Kirke or Circe was the daughter of the Sun god, who was famous for taming wild animals for her circus. But get ready for this: Circe is pictured holding a golden cup in her hand mixed with wine and drugs, by which she controlled the kings of the world. Now where have we heard that before?"

The early Christians, before the time of Origen (185–254 A.D), did not have an elite class of clergy above the "lay" mass of believers. The early church had leaders like Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp, but these men were not like our elite class of clergy, the priests, and preachers. The clergy came into existance after the time of Origen and the beginning of the Catholic Church. To be in control of the institution called the Church gave the clergy greater control over the Christian people. Not only the Church as a building, but also the church as an organized institution enabled the clergy to control the doctrines and practices of those claiming to be the people of God.

The Catholic Church and the Church of England used the word “church” and its meaning as an institution and building to help keep the Christian people in subjection to their control, to their control of doctrines and practices. Without an institution and building the clergy would have lost much of their power over the people. And so the word "Church" was important for the creation and survival of that institution and building over the centuries since the beginning of the Catholic Church.

Luther and Calvin did not seem to fully understand the issue of the word church not having the same meaning as ekklesia, and did not clearly teach that the ekklesia is a meeting, assembly or congregation and not the Body of Christ itself.

New Testament doctrine depends upon the meanings of the Greek words at the time the NT was written. This is the most important consideration in the issue of what the Church is.

Although the Geneva Bible was created in Geneva by English protestants rather than in what was then Catholic England, nevertheless the Catholic capital C Church system with its elite clergy must have influenced them to translate ekklesia as church in the Geneva Bible of 1560.

William Tyndale in his 1525 Tyndale Bible translated ekklesia as congregation, except for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37. In both texts he used church to indicate a place of pagan worship.

Tyndale was martyred by the clergy for creating his Bible. The clergy could not allow Tyndale to get by translating ekklesia as congregation and not as church.

Here are the places Tyndale used the word church, it is in old English:
Acts 14:13: "Then Jupiter's priest, which dwelt before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the church porch,|before the gate| and would have done sacrifice with the people."

Acts 19:37: "For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet despisers |blasphemers| of your goddess." The reference is to the temple and goddess of Diana of the Ephesians.

Tyndale understood that the word church pointed to a pagan house of worship and translated it in this way. His translation of ekklesia as congregation was not something that the clergy running the church system wanted to be known by the people who did not have English Bibles.

Church Christians often defend the church by citing Hebrews 10:25, "Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together" claiming thismeans going to church. But remember that the capital C Church was created to represent the Body of Christ as a man made institution in Catholic times. Assembling yourselves together can refer to a few Christians getting together anywhere to study the Bible and to fellowship in Christ and without benefit of the clergy.

The Greek word ekklesia translated as church did not begin with the 1611 King James Version. It began with the Geneva Bible of 1560. That is, the Geneva Bible of 1560 consistently translated ekklesia as church, while the Tyndale Bible translated ekklesia as church only for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37.

 

[DHC]

A Word Study of Ekklesia and Church

If you follow the thread in scripture from II Kings 21: 13, to Isaiah 29: 16 and on to Jeremiah 18: 1-7 and then to Isaiah 50: 1, and Jeremiah 3: 8, and Hosea 7: 7-8, then to Romans 9: 24-25 (Hosea 2: 23), then on to Romans 2: 17-29, Romans 9: 6-8, and Galatians 4: 22-29, Israel of the Old Covenant was transformed, changed into the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5 and the chosen generation of I Peter 2: 9.

Hello Tulsa.

Are you really sure that the Israel of the Old Covenant was transformed into the spiritual house of (1 Peter 2)?

Tulsa you are peddling a theological construction which is not difficult to dismantle.
You quoted from the fourth chapter of Paul's letter to the Galatians with the inference
that there is a physical Israel 'transformed' into a spiritual Israel. But if you read more
carefully your quotation from the letter to the Galatians you will notice the following.

Paul is not discussing a 'transformation' of Israel, Paul is discussing two different covenants!

...for these women are two covenants...(Galatians 4:24)

The covenant at Mt Sinai which God established with Israel is the covenant of Hagar (Galatians 4:25).

The covenant from above, a covenant of the free woman, is the New Covenant of Christ (Galatians 4:31).

When you quoted from Galatians you omitted one very important line.

Galatians 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

This line gives the game away Tulsa, because it does not matter whether Paul means
the ten commandments or the whole law system itself. The legal dispute is irrevelant
as all the law falls under the covenant at Mt Sinai. Once Paul refers to the Mt Sinai as Hagar
your theology is in tatters. The ten commandments themselves are the very tablets of the
covenant of Hagar.

So the nation of Israel was the specific nation under the covenant of Hagar. I might add that
this old covenant has been abolished by God Himself and membership is closed. After all
the Mt Sinai covenant was really a covenant of works, not a covenant of Grace anyway.

 

[DHC]

The topic here is not the definition of "man made theology." It is a word study of ekklesia and church. The word theology is not in scripture. Words that are in scripture can be used instead of "man made theology." Apostasia, translated as falling away (II Thessalonians 2: 3), planes , translated as error (II Thessalonians 2: 11), muthos, translated as fables (I Timothy 1: 4, II Timothy 4: 4, Titus 1: 14, II Peter 1: 16) and traditions of men (Mark 7: 8, especially Matthew 15: 6) could all be used to describe what John Darby, C.I. Scofield and others taught. But doing this can offend their followers perhaps more than calling it "man made theology." It is a tradition of men since it has been around since its beginning in the 1830's.

But I am not going to be lured off topic by a prolonged argument over "man made theology" verses traditions of men, apostasy, fables, error, etc.

The meaning the Apostles gave to the Greek word ekklesia is part of the key which would help clarify this problem of whether Israel was replaced by the church or physical Israel now stands beside the church as a people of God. If you say that God now has two peoples, that is, two saved groups, you are rejecting what Christ said in John 10: 16, "...there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Beginning with the Geneva Bible ekklesia was, unfortunately, translated as church and the King James also translates it as church. It is translated also as church in the newer versions.

Christ said in John 14: 6, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Christ himself is the truth. If you reject a part of his truth, you reject him as truth.

If you disagree with Jesus Christ and say God has two groups of people, then you have another Jesus and another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

One part of the fundamental problem with the teaching that God now has two groups of saved people is that the original meaning of church is not the original meaning of ekklesia. The Greek word kuriakon, related to Kuriokon, pertaining a lord, not the Lord, is closer in meaning to the original meaning of church. But the word kuriakon is not in the Greek New Testament.

The meaning of church was re-defined to serve some purpose.

So, what was the original meaning of ekklesia? Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for number 1577, ekklesia, says the word means "a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven, or both), assembly, church."

We will see that the calling out part of the definition of ekklesia is not limited to a calling out to God nor even to a calling out to a meeting of Christians, but meant a calling out to a non-religious meeting.

And the meaning of ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation does not match up with the original meaning of church which is closer to the place for worshipping a pagan lord.

The Catholic Church made the elect, the Body of Christ, equal to the ekklesia, the meeting, assembly or congregation. In doing so, the Catholic Church changed the meaning of ekklesia as a meeting to an institution of man standing equal to and really replacing physical Israel. Physical Israel in scripture was not replaced by the meeting, now called the church. Instead physical and national Israel was changed into Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, the Israel of God. That is, physical Israel was transformed into the Israel which is of God (Galatians 6: 16), to distinguish it from physical Israel as in Romans 9: 6-8, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

The original 1828 Webster's Dictionary, defines "church" as:

"Church, n. [Sax. Circe, circ or cyric; Scots, kirk, which retains the Saxon pronunciation; D. Kerk; G. Kirche; Se. Kyrchia; Dan. Kirke; Gr. Kuriokon, a temple of God, from kuriakos, pertaining to a Lord, or to our Lord Jesus Christ, from kurios, a Lord; Russ. Tzerkou.] .1 A house consecrated to the worship of God, among christians; the Lord's house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word. The Greek ekklesia, from ekkalew, to call out or call together, denotes an assembly or collection. But kuriakos, kuriakon, are from kurios, Lord, a term applied by the early christians to Jesus Christ; and the house in which they worshipped was named from that title. So kuriaka signifies church goods, bona ecclesiastica; kuriakh, sc hmera, the Lord's day, dies dominica. 2. The collective body of christians, or of those who profess to believe in Christ, and acknowledge him to be the Savior of mankind. In this sense, the church is sometimes the Catholic or Universal Church. Johnson Enclyce. 3. A particular number of christians, united under one form of ecclesiastical government, in one creed, and using the same ritual or ceremonies; as the English church; the Gallican church; the Presbyterian church; the Romish church; the Greek church."

In Young's Concordance, the word kuriakon, related to Kuriokon, pertaining the a Lord, not the Lord, is not in the Greek New Testament. So, the word church as related to the Greek kuriakon or kuriokon, meaning a pagan lord, has no place in the New Testament Greek text. The word church was instead taken over from the pagans and used by the Catholic Church to indicate an institution which replaced physical Israel. And the word church, which was not a proper noun, was capitalized and made into the capital C Catholic Church. Luther, Calvin and other Reformation leaders failed to fully grasp the importance of this and allowed Christians to continue to call themselves the capital C Church.

Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible says that “church” comes from a word meaning “circle,” which is related to our word “circus.” Professor Lipsius (German theologian during the Reformation) also shows that “church” came from “circle.” Professor A. F. Fausett of Home Bible Study Dictionary” agrees with Professor Lipsius. The exhaustive ten volume Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature under the word “church” states that:

“It was probably connected with the Latin circus, circulus, and with the Greek kuklos. Lipsius, who was the first to reject the received tradition, was probably right in his suggestion” (Vol. II, p. 322).

Robert Brown’s work The Myth of Kirke” also confirms that “kirke” (church) means “Circle” or “Circular” (p. 22).

Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, under the entry “church” says: “No doubt the word means ‘a circle.’ The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular [witness circular Stonehenge, one of the most ancient stone megaliths on earth]. Compare Anglo-Saxon ‘circe,’ a small church, with ‘circol,’ a circle.”

In Scotland it is called “Kirk” and in Gemany it is “Kirche,” in England it is the word “Circe” (the “c” having a “k” sound).

According to Brown’s book, “Kirke/Circe” was also the name of a Goddess: "Kirke or Circe was the daughter of the Sun god, who was famous for taming wild animals for her circus. But get ready for this: Circe is pictured holding a golden cup in her hand mixed with wine and drugs, by which she controlled the kings of the world. Now where have we heard that before?"

The early Christians, before the time of Origen (185–254 A.D), did not have an elite class of clergy above the "lay" mass of believers. The early church had leaders like Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp, but these men were not like our elite class of clergy, the priests, and preachers. The clergy came into existance after the time of Origen and the beginning of the Catholic Church. To be in control of the institution called the Church gave the clergy greater control over the Christian people. Not only the Church as a building, but also the church as an organized institution enabled the clergy to control the doctrines and practices of those claiming to be the people of God.

The Catholic Church and the Church of England used the word “church” and its meaning as an institution and building to help keep the Christian people in subjection to their control, to their control of doctrines and practices. Without an institution and building the clergy would have lost much of their power over the people. And so the word "Church" was important for the creation and survival of that institution and building over the centuries since the beginning of the Catholic Church.

Luther and Calvin did not seem to fully understand the issue of the word church not having the same meaning as ekklesia, and did not clearly teach that the ekklesia is a meeting, assembly or congregation and not the Body of Christ itself.

New Testament doctrine depends upon the meanings of the Greek words at the time the NT was written. This is the most important consideration in the issue of what the Church is.

Although the Geneva Bible was created in Geneva by English protestants rather than in what was then Catholic England, nevertheless the Catholic capital C Church system with its elite clergy must have influenced them to translate ekklesia as church in the Geneva Bible of 1560.

William Tyndale in his 1525 Tyndale Bible translated ekklesia as congregation, except for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37. In both texts he used church to indicate a place of pagan worship.

Tyndale was martyred by the clergy for creating his Bible. The clergy could not allow Tyndale to get by translating ekklesia as congregation and not as church.

Here are the places Tyndale used the word church, it is in old English:
Acts 14:13: "Then Jupiter's priest, which dwelt before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the church porch,|before the gate| and would have done sacrifice with the people."

Acts 19:37: "For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet despisers |blasphemers| of your goddess." The reference is to the temple and goddess of Diana of the Ephesians.

Tyndale understood that the word church pointed to a pagan house of worship and translated it in this way. His translation of ekklesia as congregation was not something that the clergy running the church system wanted to be known by the people who did not have English Bibles.

Church Christians often defend the church by citing Hebrews 10:25, "Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together" claiming thismeans going to church. But remember that the capital C Church was created to represent the Body of Christ as a man made institution in Catholic times. Assembling yourselves together can refer to a few Christians getting together anywhere to study the Bible and to fellowship in Christ and without benefit of the clergy.

The Greek word ekklesia translated as church did not begin with the 1611 King James Version. It began with the Geneva Bible of 1560. That is, the Geneva Bible of 1560 consistently translated ekklesia as church, while the Tyndale Bible translated ekklesia as church only for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37.

Hello Tulsa.

I am not trying to lure attention from the topic at all.
I was protesting the poor use of English.
All 'theology' is man made because that is what theology is Tulsa.
Theology is the attempt to understand God and the Universe by the facility of human reason.
Theology is a subject that one may study Tulsa.
The word theology does not appear in the scripture because it is a purely human creation.
Theology is very similar to Philosophy, the idea must be supported by the careful selection
of verses. Theology is 'man made' and can never be otherwise. To call theology 'man made'
is ridiculous Tulsa.

 

[Bambi]

The meaning of church was re-defined to serve some purpose.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

What did Jesus and Stephen mean mean by church?

 

[tulsa 2011]

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")

"The nature of the church is a crucial point of difference between
classic, or normative, dispensationalism and other doctrinal systems.
Indeed, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the church, is the touchstone
of dispensationalism (and also of pretribulationalism)."
(page 123, Charles Ryrie Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press,
[1966], 1995)

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in
his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery
program must be completed before God can resume His program with
Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from
a literal method of interpretation."
(page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).

In John 10: 16 Christ says "...and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." There are also some texts in which Paul says there is one Body of Christ, or one saved group, one group of the elect (see: Romans 12: 5, I Corinthians 10: 17, I Corinthians 12: 12, Galatians 3: 28,especially, and Ephesians 2: 15, as well as Ephesians 4: 4. To believe that God now has two peoples, as dispensationalism teaches, physical Israel and the church, is to reject a basic and clear part of the Gospel, making the doctrine that God now has two saved peoples, two groups of the elect, and two chosen peoples, or really in dispensationalism two groups but one chosen people is to teach another Jesus and another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

Again, the debate over the meaning of the capital C Church is an endless one - partly because it is an argument between the theology called dispensationalism, separation theology, postponement theology, Christian Zionism and the Rapture Cult and the use of ekklesia in scripture. And part of the reason it is endless is because the theology has re-defined the meaning of words. For example, if one teaches that the dispensationalist pre-trib rapture is not in scripture, the dispensationalist will assume you mean that you are saying Christ will not return. If you teach that physical Israel was changed by the Lord, or transformed into that spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5, the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 16, the dispensationalist will assume you mean that everyone of physical Israel was transformed and argue against that. In fact, all physical Israel was not transformed, but only that remnant of Romans 11: 5, and those who rejected Christ were broken off. But the prophecy of II Kings 21: 13, etc was fulfilled in that remnant of physical Israel who were transformed.

 

[Brother Paul]

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

What did Jesus and Stephen mean mean by church?

The called out body of people alleged to believe whether OT or NT...the New Covenant was first promised to and first offered to the children of Israel (that is Jacob's offspring) and in even from the mouth of Jesus, the gospel was to first go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and did and the first 3 or 4 thousand Ekklesia of the New Covenant were Jewish people...so that about sums it up....it is we who have been grafted in to make a new people who were not a people...Jew and Gentile one in Messiah...the Church.

 

[Bambi]

The called out body of people alleged to believe whether OT or NT...the New Covenant was first promised to and first offered to the children of Israel (that is Jacob's offspring) and in even from the mouth of Jesus, the gospel was to first go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and did and the first 3 or 4 thousand Ekklesia of the New Covenant were Jewish people...so that about sums it up....it is we who have been grafted in to make a new people who were not a people...Jew and Gentile one in Messiah...the Church.

So are church and ekklesia two different words? Cause that's what I think Tulsa is saying, but I don't agree. Church is the English word for ekklesia.

 

[Brother Paul]

Same exact word...