An Argument Againts Once Saved Always Saved

[RJ]

If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation. Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence. Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour.
Please, someone please provide scripture where we would no longer be in God's graceful presence.


I believe in OSAS and I never use it for and excuse for sinful behavior! Why is it that we are always accused of that? That we can just sin all we want?

I say this with all due love and respect, I grow tired of this kind of labeling.

I have never, not once in any thread here at TJ have I seen a person who beleives in Eternal Security, that states that they now have an excuse to sin. That is an insult! What kind of Christian would we be if we felt that way about sin, we would not be one...that's what!

Btw, unless you can point it out, I see no scripture that says that, once God is in you as promised by the New Covenant, that he will leave for any reason. If you do, please provide!

I see Jesus telling Nicodemus, that "You must be Born Again"! I see no scripture that states that there is any such thing as being "un-born"! Again, if you do, please provide.

So please, all of you who are anti- OSAS, either show threads where a OSAS beleiver supports this type of behavior or stop the labeling and gossep!!

Thank You!

 

[agua]

Oh great another OSAS thread.

I hope this is the only reply it gets.

: )

 

[RJ]

Oh great another OSAS thread.

I hope this is the only reply it gets.

: )

So much for compassion and consideration!

 

[agua]

I have never known a OSAS believer to promote licentiousness btw. : )

Let the subject rest in peace a while imo.

 

[RJ]

I have never known a OSAS believer to promote licentiousness btw. : )

Let the subject rest in peace a while imo.

Licentiousness: The act of being Licentious

licentious (comparative more licentious, superlative most licentious)

1. Lacking restraint, or ignoring societal standards, particularly in sexual conduct.
2. Disregard for accepted rules.

Very good Agua! Just what part am I guilty of?

I wonder what you would call the false categorization and accusations that I was responding to? Btw, that post did'nt discuss the pros of OSAS just the abussive categorization!

Anyway, you will be glad to know I am done, unless I feel I need to respond to another fasle statement.

 

[agua]

Licentiousness: The act of being Licentious

licentious (comparative more licentious, superlative most licentious)

1. Lacking restraint, or ignoring societal standards, particularly in sexual conduct.
2. Disregard for accepted rules.

Very good Agua! Just what part am I guilty of?

You aren't guilty of anything that I know of. I was supporting your claim . : )

To be crystal clear I have known many OSAS believers and none of them have claimed it's ok to sin, including you.

Not one.

 

[duckybill]

Everyone will be saved.

Satan/Universalists

 

[farout]

Harsh words

Friends of Jesus:

I openly confess I am a sinner! Paul thought he was the worst sinner, but I think I am equal too or maybe even more. But I am reminded that 1John 1:10 says that if we say we don't sin we are a liar. We all are so gulty. I know of no one who can say that they do not sin daily.

I doubt few of us will die with all our sins confessed. Sometimes the Holy Spirit will bring to my attention a sin or sins from a decade or so ago. When I am open and hear the Holy Spirit, I do confess it, and repent.

How can any human say they are in sinless perfection? Only Jesus Christ was sinless, and paid the required blood sacrifice for our sins. Sure sin causes distance from the Godhead. According to 1 John 1:9 & 10, it is anticipated we will sin. Jesus is accessible and faithful and perfectly sufficient to forgive our sins and to absolve us from all sinfulness. No one can say they live sinless, if they do that either Jesus or those who claim to be sinless are liars, such a person is not a born again Christian. (my paraphase)

When we say The Holy Spirit has sealed us and given as a pledge of our (eternal) redemption of being the possession of God. Ephesians 1:13-14 (my Paraphase)

I liken the "Once Saved Always Saved" to the Israelites who placed the Blood of the Lamb on the door posts the night just before the Angel of Death passed by. I am quite sure some Israelites went to sleep that night with faith and peace they were safe in the LORD. On the other hand there must have been some Israelites who were afraid and anxious, and stayed up all night worrying. The morning brought both the ones in faith, and the anxious ones safe and secure.

So it is today. There are some who live secure in their eternal salvation, and others who feel to expect eternal security is wrong and are anxious.

Can we live in peace and harmony together without demanding that the other must change to have fellowship and work together?
It is very stressful when these to opinions come face to face, each stating the Scripture is correct as they see it. This is intense for for either group to come to a base that equality is seen by either view on the other.

I do not have a solution to these debates, except for continued dialogue with Scripture as the affirmation for each side to validate their view.

 

[dannibear]

Friends of Jesus:


I liken the "Once Saved Always Saved" to the Israelites who placed the Blood of the Lamb on the door posts the night just before the Angel of Death passed by. I am quite sure some Israelites went to sleep that night with faith and peace they were safe in the LORD. On the other hand there must have been some Israelites who were afraid and anxious, and stayed up all night worrying. The morning brought both the ones in faith, and the anxious ones safe and secure.

So it is today. There are some who live secure in their eternal salvation, and others who feel to expect eternal security is wrong and are anxious.

Can we live in peace and harmony together without demanding that the other must change to have fellowship and work together?
It is very stressful when these to opinions come face to face, each stating the Scripture is correct as they see it. This is intense for for either group to come to a base that equality is seen by either view on the other.

I do not have a solution to these debates, except for continued dialogue with Scripture as the affirmation for each side to validate their view.

Beautiful brother! Never considered that passage in that way,
now I am going to read it in new light tonight. I can
see the Spirit's words flowing through you.

 

[MsMree]

Can we live in peace and harmony together without demanding that the other must change to have fellowship and work together?
It is very stressful when these to opinions come face to face, each stating the Scripture is correct as they see it. This is intense for for either group to come to a base that equality is seen by either view on the other.

I do not have a solution to these debates, except for continued dialogue with Scripture as the affirmation for each side to validate their view.

Thank you farout for these few passages. Whichever side of the debate you fall on, whichever side of whichever debate you fall on, it is so important to remember that the ultimate law is one of love. Thank you so much. It's so nice to see such a placid, placatory post on these forums. God bless you richly and deeply my brother.

 

[MsMree]

Oh great another OSAS thread.

I hope this is the only reply it gets.

: )

HAHAHAHAHAAH



HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[RJ]

hahahahahaah



Hahahahahaha

hehehehehehe....hahahaha

 

[Brighthouse]

May I put a twist around this please? saved,is saved done once only in our life? Or is saved done more then once? I was saved from dieing in Vietnam a few times. I was saved from being hit by a car a few times as well.

Was I saved to become saved by Jesus? As of course I was not a believer back then,but yet I was saved from harm back then.Then after Jesus,I like the disciples fled him,only to be saved again by Jesus and his love for me. Can salvation be made daily as faith and hope are?

The only point I can find in scripture,is that it is appointed for man to die once, then the judgement,but I have never seen where someone cannot be saved more then once in there life. Just a thought,not looking to argue,I just thought perhaps this was something intersting to also consider is all.

 

[duckybill]

The Blood of Jesus against you Satan, Jiggyfly, Universalist.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NKJV)
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Stickz]

If someone were to say that they have not sinned, there would have never been any reason for them to have gone to Christ to begin with.

farout: But I am reminded that 1John 1:10 says that if we say we don't sin we are a liar.

Just wanted to compare what was said to the verse itself.

I John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. ( NASB )

I see a little difference ....

I John 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. ( NASB )

Why does it seem that some verses are taken literally for just what they seem to say, but others are so often rationalized into a non-literal meaning?

farout: I liken the "Once Saved Always Saved" to the Israelites who placed the Blood of the Lamb on the door posts the night just before the Angel of Death passed by. I am quite sure some Israelites went to sleep that night with faith and peace they were safe in the LORD. On the other hand there must have been some Israelites who were afraid and anxious, and stayed up all night worrying. The morning brought both the ones in faith, and the anxious ones safe and secure.

So it is today. There are some who live secure in their eternal salvation, and others who feel to expect eternal security is wrong and are anxious.

Yes, the people that obeyed God and placed the lamb's blood on their doorposts were spared that night, but those same people whom you seem to be wanting to compare with 'Once Saved Always Saved' were destroyed later in the wilderness, on their way to the Promised Land, for sinning and unbelief.

I say, do not change the Word to suit you, but change yourself to suit the Word.

 

[RJ]

May I put a twist around this please? saved,is saved done once only in our life? Or is saved done more then once? I was saved from dieing in Vietnam a few times. I was saved from being hit by a car a few times as well.

Was I saved to become saved by Jesus? As of course I was not a believer back then,but yet I was saved from harm back then.Then after Jesus,I like the disciples fled him,only to be saved again by Jesus and his love for me. Can salvation be made daily as faith and hope are?

The only point I can find in scripture,is that it is appointed for man to die once, then the judgement,but I have never seen where someone cannot be saved more then once in there life. Just a thought,not looking to argue,I just thought perhaps this was something intersting to also consider is all.

That is interesting Bright.

Your analogy of the different deaths that you escaped, are physical deaths, dieing in the flesh.
The Bible is concerned with our "Spiritual Death", spiritually void of God for all eternity. We all eventually die a physical death of the flesh but we do not have to die a spiritual death.

You know how I feel; to "ad-nausium" for some folks apparently!
Here is something to also consider.


If you beleive, as I do, that Jesus saved you, then I see nothing in the Bible that apposes the following and I ask you to consider these:

• Jesus to Nicodemus: "You must be Born Again". He also said, that we have 2 births: "Flesh gives birth to flesh and the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit". If you beleive that being "Born of the Spirit" is a prerequisit for salvation, where in the Bible does it say that we can be un-born?
• God says that he will never leave or forsake us; I see nothing in the Bible to the contrary.
• If you beleive, as I do, that as a condition of salvation is that, God lives in you, I see no where in the Bible that says that God will stop living in you.

 

[jari]

1Jn 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin (G266, hamartia); for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

the way i see this is that when your born of God you have new heart and spirit and you don't sin like you did before. Still if we say we have no sin we deceive our selfs.

Romans 7 explains this to us well
Romans 7:7-21

 

[Brighthouse]

So true RJ! I just thought, that is was neat to look at just how many times we could have died is all. Thanks for your excellent scriptures as well. I would say one understands what true death becomes in our flesh,when we do not live unto it anymore. And we are reborn as jari says in scripture as well.Very good brothers! Glad for the LOVE!! blessing always to you all!

 

[Stickz]

unborn 1. not yet born; yet to come; future: unborn generations 2. not yet delivered; still existing in the mother's womb: an unborn baby. 3. existing without birth or beginning.

The Bible doesn't use the word 'unborn', it uses the word 'death'.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Is an unbeliever under grace? No, this must be a message to the believer.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

*****

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

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James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Is this verse referring to an unbeliever? I wouldn't think so because that would make it sound like all an unbeliever has to do is endure temptation to receive the crown of life, and I think that we would all agree that that couldn't possibly be the correct way to interpret this verse. Must be the believer in question here. Staying with the context let's move on:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

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Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Will God ever forsake you?

Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Deuteronomy 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

He told them that He wouldn't.

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a ******* after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deuteronomy 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

Joshua 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

I Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

I Chronicles 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.

II Chronicles 15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Psalm 27:9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Psalm 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

These verses would appear to contradict one another depending on how one chooses to interpret them. When there seems to be contradiction, I choose to believe that the error lies with the interpretation of the verses and not the verses themselves.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

*****

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

*****

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

When you interpret Romans 7 as Paul admitting that he himself sinned all the time, a lot of the following verses seem to contradict that interpretation, or make Paul out to be a hypocrite.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

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I Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

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I Corinthians 10:1-14 The examples and warnings in these verses must still apply to us today.

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II Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

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II Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

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Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

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Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

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Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

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Colossians 3:5-10

Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

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I Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

I Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

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I Thessalonians 4:1-7

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I Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

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I Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

I Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

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I Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

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II Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

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Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

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Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

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Hebrews 10:26-29

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Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

 

[jari]

Hi stickz..

You could ask does Holy spirit leave you if you die spiritually? No the HS is always within you and Jesus is always with you.

Being born again is not about becoming alive in sense. Its that too but Jesus says that unless we are born again we cannot see God's kingdom. And when born again we are accepted into God's family and are able to see God's kingdom in spiritual sense as its experienced already at this time by the Holy spirit.

if we die spiritually this does not mean we have ceased to be God's child. Perhaps we are unable to walk in spirit then. But i havent found any scripture saying that you must be born again, again.
We choose to live after the spirit or after flesh everyday. But i dont think bible teaches anything else than that salvation is instant and happens when person is born again.

Also God never forsakes us... if we look at old testament there's God's word spoken to israelites, now what does that have to do with us? They werent born again. And indeed they lost promised land when they forsook God. These were all real life things for them, but how does that relate to us who have relationship with God? unlike they who were initially not born again and were given the law.


I think the bible teaches that God never leaves nor forsakes us.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.