Ask an Atheist.

[Michael D.]

I started this thread to keep the other threads on topic. So, if you have any questions about my personal beliefs or Atheism in general, I'll do my best to answer. But please keep such questions or attempts to convert me in this thread, so other threads do not get derailed.

'preciate it,
Mick

 

[Chad]

Are you seeking Jesus and to know Him?

Evidence & Bible Prophecy - Talk Jesus | Christian Forums

 

[Michael D.]

Are you seeking Jesus and to know Him?

Are you asking my purposes for starting the thread and if it should be in this forum, or a question pertaining to the offer?

If the former, I didn't know where else to put it. And since it has less to do with Biblical topics, I thought it'd be me appropriate here.

If the latter, I am seeking to learn more about Jesus, his teachings, and Christianity.

 

[David777]

Hello Michael.

You claim to be an atheist, I would sure appreciate it if you could explain
how you arrived at your conclusion.

Before I became a Christian I honestly had no idea whether God did or did not exist.

It was a mystery beyond my understanding.

 

[Asanima]

You claim to be an atheist, I would sure appreciate it if you could explain
how you arrived at your conclusion.

Before I became a Christian I honestly had no idea whether God did or did not exist.

It was a mystery beyond my understanding.

Its not exactly a conclusion per se, is it? im an atheist too, and im at where you were. I have no idea whether God does or doesnt exist. Im sure you didnt come to the conclusion that you had no idea whether God did or did not exist, this was just the way you were before you came to your conclusion that God does exist.

In any case, sorry for butting in.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I started this thread to keep the other threads on topic. So, if you have any questions about my personal beliefs or Atheism in general, I'll do my best to answer. But please keep such questions or attempts to convert me in this thread, so other threads do not get derailed.

'preciate it,
Mick

Two suggestions - Checkout this website: Ask Questions about Life and God

Read this book: The Reason for God
by Timothy Keller

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

 

[eddieb]

i aint got nothing to gain if you believe me or not. i done heard God speak.

i wasnt intoxicated either. if you are willing to live a life that honors and respects him, and you pray to him with pure intentions, not holding back a part of your life or heart, and you are willing to abandon your sin thru repentance, and seek him with prayer, He will speak or at least you can feel his presence. He will reveal Himself. in someway that you will know beyond a mere "faith" that only defines to another what you believe.

i do not have any questions.

 

[David777]

Hello Asanima.

Belief and atheism?

Definition of belief;

i) Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something

Definition of atheism;

i) Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

So from the two definitions, an atheist is convinced (believes) that God does not exist.

This is my understanding of what an atheist holds to be true.

If you agree with the above then I will state precisely the problem
I have with atheism.

Firstly the definition of God;

God,

a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, creator and ruler of the universe.

Now, if we examine the definition of God the problem
is apparent.

1) There is no known example of "perfection" it is not
observable by man, it is but an idea. How is it possible
to even imagine a perfect entity?

2) Omnipotent, all powerful, again beyond human
comprehension. Why define words that we no ability
to understand.

3) Omniscient, all knowing, seriously do we have any
idea what that word is supposed to mean. "All knowing"
for mankind whose knowledge is based on arrays of
assumptions it is a ridiculous word and invalid definition.

Why attempt to define what essentially is far beyond the
ability of the human mind. Then we have an atheist who
confidently asserts that they do not believe in God?

What exactly does an atheist believe asanima and why?

 

[Asanima]

Belief and atheism?

Definition of belief;

i) Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something

Definition of atheism;

i) Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

So from the two definitions, an atheist is convinced (believes) that God does not exist.

Let me just break here for a second.

The problem i have with your analysis, is whether disbelief, counts as a belief itself. I agree with both your definitions, but the conclusion that you have drawn, isnt something that i believe. I dont believe that God does not exist.

My understanding of Atheism goes like this.

There are two claims being addressed here.

God does exist
God does not exist

A belief necessarily addresses one claim. You can either believe, or disbelieve the claim. However, you can disbelieve both claims as unproven and be non-committal on both the claims. Disbelief of both claims doesnt necessarily present a contradiction.

Its like when you flip a coin. The outcome is either heads, or not heads. If we are talking about reasonable belief, a belief that is justified, and not just a "im just going to guess", then you cannot believe that it is either heads or not heads, because you have insufficient reason to justify your belief. Its the equivalent of when you said "I have no idea".

This is my understanding of what an atheist holds to be true.

If you agree with the above then I will state precisely the problem
I have with atheism.

Firstly the definition of God;

God,

a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, creator and ruler of the universe.

Now, if we examine the definition of God the problem
is apparent.

1) There is no known example of "perfection" it is not
observable by man, it is but an idea. How is it possible
to even imagine a perfect entity?

Partial agreeance. The problem with your first problem with the definition of God, is the fact that we can have concepts without being able to imagine it in its entirety. A perfect example, is a perfect circle. Pardon the pun. The perfect physical circle, is something that is pretty much impossible. There will always be some sort of imperfection whether it be drawn with a compass or on a computer screen. It only exists as a concept. I cannot imagine a perfect circle in my head, and have it actually perfect, all i know is the concept of what a perfect circle is.

2) Omnipotent, all powerful, again beyond human
comprehension. Why define words that we no ability
to understand.

Agreed, sort of, if we consider the above statement made.

3) Omniscient, all knowing, seriously do we have any
idea what that word is supposed to mean. "All knowing"
for mankind whose knowledge is based on arrays of
assumptions it is a ridiculous word and invalid definition.

Well, philosophers have been tackling this, and although there isnt a complete consensus, there are equally valid groups of thought on this.

Why attempt to define what essentially is far beyond the
ability of the human mind. Then we have an atheist who
confidently asserts that they do not believe in God?

What exactly does an atheist believe asanima and why?

The problem here is two-fold, to me.

Firstly, you are making an argument that could potentially backfire on a theist. If you do not understand, then how can you claim to believe in something to which you have no real grasp of?

Secondly, again, there are things that only exist in our mind. There is no example of a unicorn in real life, or a perfect circle. But we can still discuss these things, because we have a good understanding of the definition of what a perfect circle is, or what a unicorn is. And by that same method, you and I have a good understanding of what the definition of Omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc is, and therefore, we can discuss it with the understanding that, we may not be able to demonostrate what perfection is, but we still know what the definition of it is.

But, as i said before, the definition of what constitutes an atheist is disbelief, and not necessarily belief. I am certain there are atheists out there who believe there is no God, but im not one of them, atleast not within the context of our discussion. And by that i mean epistemology, how we define knowledge in relation to belief, etc, but im not going into that too deeply unless you want to discuss it further, which is fine with me.

 

[David777]

Hello asanima.

I read your reply, interesting analysis, so in reply.

You stated,

"The problem i have with your analysis, is whether disbelief, counts as a belief itself."

You can either believe God does exist or you can believe God does not exist, of course.

An atheist by definition denies the existence of God anasima.

You are not an atheist if you are unsure whether God exists anasima.

May I recommend agnosticism which is more in keeping with claims that may not be proven.

Next you stated,

"The problem with your first problem with the definition of God,
is the fact that we can have concepts without being able to imagine it in its entirety. "

I can imagine a circle, it has physical dimensions.

God is spirit anasima, non physical, undefined, beyond intellect.

There is no comparison between God and the concept of a perfect circle.

Further on anasima you stated regarding omniscient,

"Well, philosophers have been tackling this, and although there isnt a complete consensus,
there are equally valid groups of thought on this."

Philosophy is unable to make inroads into concepts of omniscient,
simply because we are finite creatures. Omniscience is only a word
with an invalid definition, it is not definable and never was definable.

Finally you stated,

"Firstly, you are making an argument that could potentially backfire on a theist.
If you do not understand, then how can you claim to believe in something to
which you have no real grasp of?"

I am not a theist, there is no definition of God that I could ever accept as far as intellectual
propositions are concerned. Every definition I have seen is invalid. Zero probability of backfire.

Epistemology suffers the same fate as the definition of God.

What is truth???

 

[Michael D.]

You claim to be an atheist, I would sure appreciate it if you could explain
how you arrived at your conclusion.

Before I became a Christian I honestly had no idea whether God did or did not exist.

It was a mystery beyond my understanding.

I don't recall exactly when I adopted Atheism. There are a lot of things that happened in my childhood, and that event didn't stick out as particularly noteworthy. But, as a result of my childhood, I was quite the cynic and very rebellious. Firstly, the message was never very appealing to me to begin with. Secondly, I was always very curious and asked a lot of questions. I still am and do. I never got very far with them, so, naturally, I began looking elsewhere. Thirdly, I lived in the Bible belt. My lack of belief made me stick out. While I was mostly indifferent toward the entire concept to begin with, my ideas were being challenged often. And my Atheism inevitably and inadvertently became a stronger part of my identity.

So I began looking into the arguments... And the arguments for Agnosticism and Atheism made more sense to me. The Scripture, on the other hand, never made sense to me, even when people tried to explain it to me. Even as allegories and metaphors, it never made sense to me.

On Atheism and belief... There is no belief that Atheists are required to have. One can believe that we came from Martians who created us in a lab, and they'd still technically be an Atheist because that belief doesn't require a deity. But most, if not all, of us believe in natural, scientifically sound explanations for the origins of life and the universe.

To say that Atheists have a belief because we believe God doesn't exist is akin to saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is "without belief in God". The prefix a meaning "without" and theism being belief in god or gods.

Antitheism is, on the other hand, against belief in gods. Antitheists are the sort who believe there is no god.

 

[jiggyfly]

Got just one question Mick. Why do you think your beliefs would be of interest to people at a forum called TalkJesus?

 

[Coconut]

Antitheists are the sort who believe there is no god.

I could never understand why a/theists seem so interested in talking about nothing. (your word, not mine) :wink:

That is akin to deep sea diving in an attempt to prove the sea does not exist. Careful you don`t crack your noggin on the Rock...

 

[Chad]

There is no belief that Atheists are required to have. One can believe that we came from Martians who created us in a lab, and they'd still technically be an Atheist because that belief doesn't require a deity. But most, if not all, of us believe in natural, scientifically sound explanations for the origins of life and the universe.

So they can believe anything they want and assume it truth? How profound.

 

[Michael D.]

Got just one question Mick. Why do you think your beliefs would be of interest to people at a forum called TalkJesus?

I didn't. But people were trying to discuss my personal position in a manner that wasn't relevant to the topic of the thread. So I created a thread specifically for the purpose of arguing about my personal position in effort to keep other threads from being derailed, as I mentioned in the original post.

I could never understand why a/theists seem so interested in talking about nothing. (your word, not mine) :wink:

That is akin to deep sea diving in an attempt to prove the sea does not exist. Careful you don`t crack your noggin on the Rock...

I never said nor implied that we were interested in talking about nothing.

So they can believe anything they want and assume it truth? How profound.

Anyone can believe anything and assume it's truth.

 

[jiggyfly]

I didn't. But people were trying to discuss my personal position in a manner that wasn't relevant to the topic of the thread. So I created a thread specifically for the purpose of arguing about my personal position in effort to keep other threads from being derailed, as I mentioned in the original post.

So then why are you here pray tell?

 

[Brighthouse]

The Thought to believe, that you do not believe. No matter what one hears,or what one sees? There is one point I would like to make if I may. The power of unbelief,is as strong as the power to believe. Is it not? Perhaps even stronger!! Because unbelief involves self,something most of us really enjoy both talking about, and showing.

 

[Michael D.]

So then why are you here pray tell?

It doesn't matter. I'm leaving. Any further questions to me will not receive a response. Thank you for the brief conversation, to those who actually participated, and goodbye.

 

[Asanima]

I read your reply, interesting analysis, so in reply.

You stated,

"The problem i have with your analysis, is whether disbelief, counts as a belief itself."

You can either believe God does exist or you can believe God does not exist, of course.

Sure. But theres a third option, of believing neither. I sorta touched on this earlier when i explained the two claims, and how believing both to be true, is necessarily a contradiction, but disbelieving both, is not.

Its sorta my fault though because the example i shouldve used here was the coin flip analogy.

An atheist by definition denies the existence of God anasima.

You are not an atheist if you are unsure whether God exists anasima.

Actually, yes, i am.

Atheism and theism discuss one claim in particular:
God exists.

If you accept that claim to be true, you are a theist. If you do not accept that claim to be true, you are an atheist. Its a true dichotomy, you can either accept that "God exists" is true, or not true.

Now, if you are unsure about whether God exists, are you accepting the claim of "God exists" to be true? Of course not. You are not accepting it to be true.

Therefore, you are an atheist.

EDIT:

Sorry, let me just expand a bit here.

In basic logical terms, something is either "A", or "Not A". In this case, the letter A is "A belief that a God exists". "Not A" would be "Not [A belief that a God exists]" or "Disbelief that a God exists".

"Not A", encompasses EVERYTHING that isnt "A". Thats sort of a given i suppose.

So, if youre unsure that a God exists, Clearly this is "Not A". Its not "A", so its "Not A".

I dont know if this explanation is easier for you or not, it certainly is easier for me atleast, to understand why being unsure about whether you believe a God exists is also atheism.

May I recommend agnosticism which is more in keeping with claims that may not be proven.

Well, actually, im an agnostic atheist. This is what i never understood with people who say "Im not an atheist or a theist, im an agnostic".

Agnosticism and Gnosticism go to what you know, or claim to know. Theism and Atheism go to what you believe.

You can believe, but claim not to know. Its sorta like the difference between saying "I believe this bridge is safe" and "I know this bridge is safe". If the bridge collapses, clearly the person simply believed that the bridge was safe, and was wrong in his belief. This is sorta going into epistemology.

Next you stated,

"The problem with your first problem with the definition of God,
is the fact that we can have concepts without being able to imagine it in its entirety. "

I can imagine a circle, it has physical dimensions.

God is spirit anasima, non physical, undefined, beyond intellect.

There is no comparison between God and the concept of a perfect circle.

If God is undefined, how do you know what its qualities are, i.e. that he is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc? Clearly you know some charactieristics, have some basic definition of what a God is in order to even discuss God with another person?

Further on anasima you stated regarding omniscient,

"Well, philosophers have been tackling this, and although there isnt a complete consensus,
there are equally valid groups of thought on this."

Philosophy is unable to make inroads into concepts of omniscient,
simply because we are finite creatures. Omniscience is only a word
with an invalid definition, it is not definable and never was definable.

But arent there even christian philosophers who have tackled this and have come to some sort of conclusion as to what omniscience means? Wouldnt there be people here who disagree with you as well?

Finally you stated,

"Firstly, you are making an argument that could potentially backfire on a theist.
If you do not understand, then how can you claim to believe in something to
which you have no real grasp of?"

I am not a theist, there is no definition of God that I could ever accept as far as intellectual
propositions are concerned. Every definition I have seen is invalid. Zero probability of backfire.

Wait, you dont identify yourself as a theist?

Furthermore, if you have no idea, no concept, no definition of what a God is, then how can you believe that he, it, exists? It would be the equivalent of saying "I believe that smargiuaidfjdf exists". I have no idea what smargiuaidfjdf is, and neither do you, but it seems to be on the same level as the God you are describing.

Epistemology suffers the same fate as the definition of God.

What is truth???

If we are talking about it in Practical terms, truth is knowledge to a high degree of certainty. I mean, they discuss this in depth with Platos works, of how Knowledge is justified True belief, etc.

 

[Chad]

Asanima,

I invite you to the evidence and prophecy forums. Since you're an "atheist" who denies GOD exists, you claim to have absolute knowledge of the entire universe and everything that exists in order to deny GOD. That's an impressive claim, but your (and all atheists) who claim such are merely confused, or in denial.

Check out the sticky threads of all messianic prophecies fulfilled, explain and try to dispute miracles, the archeological discoveries. You'll see that you cannot.

I can only assume you have all this knowledge already right, since you claim GOD does not exist? It would only make sense.

Ultimately, I know your confused but I do welcome you to read those sticky threads. They will help you better understand.

Some useful articles:

CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Bible Questions Answered
Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics