Christ's Righteousness Becomes Ours

[brakelite]

It has been suggested, nay charged, in another thread that Adventists somehow deliberately obscure error behind truth. Below is a reprint from an official web site of the SDA church clearly defining what Adventists believe, teach, and accept as to how we are saved, (justification) and how we are to live after having been saved (sanctification). As these subjects are being dealt with elswhere and not wanting to alter the direction of those threads, I have begun a new thread solely to deal with the Adventist official view, and would invite anyone to please point out to me, and those other Adventists who frequent here and contribute to this site, how and where we have gone wrong. I could gladly add to these quotes from the writings of Ellen White which will agree wholly with what you read below. I offer the following, not with the intent of indoctrination or proselyting, but simply to clarify a common charge made against our faith. I would suggest that a clearer definition of what happens when one is saved would be difficult to find. Nor will you find a clearer expression of SDA teaching on justification and righteousness by faith. It comes from a book "In defense of the Faith" by W H Branson. The book was written specifically to answer to some who had left Adventism and made the same charges that have been made in this forum. ( And made in many other forums also it might be added.)

“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by Him all that believe are justified.” Acts 13:38, 39. Now how does this justification come about? How can a man be justified from sins which he has actually committed, and which are recorded against him on the books in heaven?

We answer: It is by an act of Christ, whereby He assumes responsibility for our sin, and imputes to us the righteouseness of His life. He counts that our transgressions were committed by Him, for which He paid the penalty on the cross, and that His obedience was performed by us. Our books of record reveal lives of perfect obedience to the law, since all past sins are forgiven, and His perfect righteousness has been imputed to us. “The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6. Thus Jesus takes away the sins of the world by taking them unto Himself and placing His righteousness upon the sinner. This He can do without having actual guilt attached to Himself, since He has already paid the penalty for our sins in His death on the cross.
When the prodigal son returned to his father, his own tattered garments were exchanged for the best robe in the house. The father took away the old garments, and clothed the son in his own rich apparel. It was of a similar experience that Isaiah sang in his day: “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.” Isaiah 61:10

This process of justification by faith is clearly stated by the great apostle to the Gentiles in the following language:
“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” Romans 3:22-26.
Thus it is the righteousness of Christ that is received by the sinner when he turns to God for help. God declares Christ's righteousness to be ours.
This righteousness of Christ is declared for the “remission” (margin, “passing over”) of sins that are past. It is imputed to the sinner just as though it were actually his, and he now stands before God with a perfect record of purity and obedience, which he had no part whatever in making, but which he has received as a gift from Christ. The sinner now appears before God as innocent as if he had never sinned.
Justification, therefore, does not come by “doing” the law, but by faith in Christ. When that faith is exercised, then Christ's law keeping is imputed to the sinner; and thus by His obedience the transgressor is declared to be righteous. “As by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19. It is by Christ's obedience that we are made righteous. He obeyed for us, and now He substitutes His obedience for our past disobedience; and thus we stand justified before God.



When a man is converted, two distinct changes take place. One is called the new birth; the other, justification. The first takes place in the man himself, being wrought by the Spirit of God. He is given a new heart; all things become new. The second is his changed standing in God's sight. This is justification, and this is the change that is wrought by the righteousness of Christ being imputed to him.
This brings us to a consideration of the Christian life, or the life after conversion, and the attitude of the newborn, justified man to the law of God. On this point Paul inquires: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Romans 6:1, 2. Sin is the transgression of the law, hence Paul is really saying, “Shall we continue to transgress the law in order that God's grace may be even more abundantly manifested by continuing to forgive and justify us?” To this he makes the most emphatic reply, “God forbid.”
It is, therefore, not God's plan that converted men should transgress His law, but rather “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4. Sin is no longer to have dominion over the life. “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” Romans 6:6, 12.
But it is impossible for any man to keep perfectly the law of Jehovah in his own strength. What Christ said is verily as true of Him now as before, that “without Me ye can do nothing.” How, then, may God's will be accomplished



in the life? The answer is found in the words of the beloved disciple: “As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believe on His name.” John 1:12.
The secret is couched in that expression, “as many as received Him.” Those who receive Him find power. The power comes through receiving Him. Herein is revealed one of the most marvelous and astounding truths of the gospel—that it is God's purpose that the Christian shall actually receive Christ into his life and permit Him to live and reign there, perfecting in him the same righteousness that was revealed in the life of Christ nineteen hundred years ago. This is the mystery spoken of by Paul when he said:
“Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.” Colossians 1:26-29.
“Christ in you,” then, is the secret. This constitutes our hope of glory. Without this experience we are helpless, and for us there is no salvation. But with Christ in control of the life, our strivings and labors are not performed in human weakness, but are “according to His working, which worketh” in us mightily. Again Paul talks of this experience in his epistle to the Ephesians, thus:
“That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,



being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto Him that is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto Him be glory.” Ephesians 3:16-21.
Note carefully the expressions used. We are “to be strengthened with might … in the inner man.” This is to be accomplished by Christ dwelling in the heart; and when He dwells in the heart, He is “able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think.” And this doing is not through our poor weakness but through “the power that worketh in us.” And that power is Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit.
Once again the apostle repeats it, this time in his letter to The Hebrews:
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.” Hebrews 13:20, 21.
Here, then, the plan is clear and plain. We can be made “perfect in every good work to do His will.” This perfection is not obtained by struggle and effort on our part, but through the operation of the power of the indwelling Christ. It is His “working in you” that brings the perfection. Our working is all a failure; His working is always a glorious success. When, therefore, He works in and through us, He brings success and perfection to our lives, just as He worked it out in His own life when here in the flesh.



Once again the Pauline letters repeat the blessed truth, this time the message to the Galatian church:
“I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.” Galatians 2:20.
This is the glorious result of having Christ live in the heart. The life that is lived is, then, no longer ours, but “Christ liveth in me.” It is His life lived over again in our flesh. We have relinquished the throne, and He is in control. Now we can exclaim, “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13.
Christ declares Himself to be “the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” Hebrews 13:8. When He was on earth in the flesh, He demonstrated that He was a commandment keeper. “I have kept My Father's commandments” (John 15:10), He said; and David prophesied of Him: “Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of Me, I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart.” Psalms 40: 7, 8. Since, therefore, it is Christ's desire to do the Father's will, and since the law of God is written in His heart, the life that He will live today in our flesh will also be a life in harmony with that law. He will literally keep the law in us and through us, and thereby bring our lives into perfect accord with its holy precepts.
This is what Paul refers to when he says that God sent His Son to make it possible. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4. When, therefore, Jesus was here in the flesh, He kept the law for us. Now



He offers to dwell in our hearts by His Holy Spirit, and keep His law in and through us. The first was a work of God for man; the second is a work of God in man. The first we had nothing to do with, but to receive it by faith; the second we cannot accomplish, but it is wrought in us by the Spirit through faith. Thus “by the obedience of One” we are made righteous, and justified from our past sins; and also by “the obedience of One” (now obeying in us) we are kept righteous day by day. This truth reveals how it is that to the Christian “Christ is all, and in all.” Colossians 3:11. We are justified by faith in Christ, and the just must live by faith in Him. Thus we are “saved by His life.” (Romans 5:10.)

The Fruits of Righteousness.


It is therefore clear that righteousness comes as a result of faith. Good works in keeping the law of God are the logical sequence, or fruits, of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. One cannot save himself by keeping the law, but a saved man will keep the law because of the fact that he is saved. It is the fruit by which the tree is known.
“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Matthew 7:16-20.
Here Jesus makes it clear that the man must first be good before he can do good. “If a man love Me,” said Jesus, “he will keep My words.” John 14:23. The loving must come first, the keeping of His law follows.



This great truth is further set forth in the epistle to the Romans, where Paul uses the experience of Abraham as an example of the way good works testify to the present faith-righteousness:
“In this way David also tells of the blessedness of the man to whose credit God places righteousness, apart from his actions. ‘Blessed,’ he says, ‘are those whose iniquities have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered over. Blessed is the man of whose sin the Lord will not take account.’
“This declaration of blessedness, then, does it come simply to the circumcised, or to the uncircumcised as well? For Abraham's faith—so we affirm—was placed to his credit as righteousness (Gen. 15:6). What then were the circumstances under which this took place? Was it after he had been circumcised, or before? Before, not after. And he received circumcision as a sign, a mark attesting the reality of the faith-righteousness which was his while still uncircumcised.” Romans 4:6-11, Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech.
So in Abraham's case his righteousness was not produced by his works of circumcision, etc., but the works appeared because of that righteousness. Circumcision became a sign of the fact that he was righteous.
Now, let us apply this to our own experience. Do we receive righteousness before we keep the law, or after? Before, not after. And we receive law keeping “as a sign, a mark attesting the reality of the faith-righteousness” which comes to us by believing on Christ and permitting Him to dwell in the soul. Thus our righteousness does not come by the “deeds of the law,” but the deeds of the law do witness to its presence and to its genuineness. (See Romans 3:21.) Thus John the beloved declares: “He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.” 1 John 2:4, 5.

By this it is seen that faith does not make void the law, but rather establishes it. (See Romans 3:31.) In fact, without this “faith-righteousness,” all our efforts to keep the law are doomed to utter failure; but trusting Him to do the work, our weakness is overcome, we become connected with the boundless power of Omnipotence, and thus we “can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth” us. Philippians 4:13. In this way our faith is shown by our works, as stated by the apostle James: “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” James 2:17, 18.

 

[james1523]

My personal view of SDA is that they are sound concerning the doctrine of salvation. Their emphasis on physical lifestyle and man's responsibility is a good thing, as is their keeping of the Sabbath as a day of rest for physical, mental and spiritual health and renewal. These are some positive things.

In terms of negative things, well firstly it is a denomination, which is against God's desire. SDA's will have to join to the rest of the Body of Christ at some point, if not on Earth, then certainly in Heaven.

Secondly the keeping of the law, including the Sabbath, for gentiles.. is not right. I know this verse is speaking only of circumcision but it applies equally to ANY part of the Law, including keeping the Sabbath:
Gal 5:3 "Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law."
Well, good luck finding a suitable Jewish temple in order to present your sacrifices etc etc

If the Sabbath is taken as a religious requirement, it is going back to the Law of Moses. Some SDA's I know take it as a religious requirement.. other's don't.. not sure the official church position on this.

SDA's do not even keep the Sabbath... having a rest day on a Saturday is not the same as keeping the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath includes meeting all the requirements such as not travelling more than 1 mile (or something like that), not lighting fires etc. The Orthodox Jews could give some lessons in how to keep the Sabbath properly.

From history the Christians met on the first day of the week.. the Lord's day, Sunday, not on Saturday. There was no conspiracy to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, as sometimes claimed. Christians have always worshiped on Sunday (Acts 20:7 and others).
But there is no strict requirement to worship on Sunday.. having church on any day of the week is OK, as long as it is not trying to "keep the Sabbath".

Let us examine the 13 requirements at Adventist baptism.. the ones I highlight in red are particularly concerning. These clearly show that a person is baptised into a particular denomination, not into Christ alone.

Requirement 6 is going back to the Law for Gentiles.. this is a no no.

Requirements 8, 9 , and 13 show clearly the sectarianism and division, which the bible condemns.

Requirement 10 has no place in baptismal vows.. use of alcohol in particular and pork or shellfish products is not forbidden under the new covenant.

<dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">"1. Do you believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">2. Do you accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of men, and believe that through faith in His shed blood men are saved from sin and its penalty?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">3. Renouncing the world and its sinful ways, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, and do you believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven your sins and given you a new heart?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">4: Do you accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as your Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and do you claim His promise to strengthen you by His indwelling Spirit, so that you may receive power to do His will?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">5. Do you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">6. Do you accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians; and is it your purpose, by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">7. Is the soon coming of Jesus the blessed hope in your heart, and are you determined to be personally ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in your power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">8. Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">9. Do you believe in God's Remnant Church, and is it your purpose to support the church by your tithes and offerings, your personal effort, and influence?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are to honor God by caring for your body, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of, or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">11. Knowing and understanding the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is it your purpose, by the grace of God, to order your life in harmony with these principles?</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">12. Do you accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and do you desire to be so baptized as a public expression of your faith in Christ and in the forgiveness of your sins?

</dd><dd style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, Rev. 12:17, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire membership.


</dd>

 

[B-A-C]

Requirement 6 is going back to the Law for Gentiles.. this is a no no.

Which part of the law?
The parts about circumcision, sacrifices, priests, and stoning these who break the law? There are literally hundreds of verses about these things, here are a few examples.

Gen 17:10; "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11; "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:13; "A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14; "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Exod 29:14; "But the flesh of the bull and its hide and its refuse, you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.
Exod 29:36; "Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to consecrate it.

Lev 4:22; 'When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the LORD his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty,
Lev 4:23; if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a male without defect.
Lev 4:24; 'He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.

Lev 5:4; 'Or if a person swears thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, in whatever matter a man may speak thoughtlessly with an oath, and it is hidden from him, and then he comes to know it, he will be guilty in one of these.
Lev 5:5; 'So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned.
Lev 5:6; 'He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.

Lev 19:22; 'The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the LORD for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him.

Lev 24:14; "Bring the one who has cursed outside the camp, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head; then let all the congregation stone him.
Lev 24:16; 'Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

Or the part about loving your neighbor.

Rom 2:22; You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
Rom 2:23; You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
Rom 2:24; No wonder the Scriptures say, "The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."
Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God's law. But if you don't obey God's law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.

We are no longer under the penalty of the law.
Rom 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 7:5; When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

But we are still under obligation to love our neighbors.

Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Otherwise why would both Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) and Jesus tell us over and over again to keep his commandments?
Which commandments specifically?

Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:17; "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

John 13:34; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 15:12; "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
John 15:17; "This I command you, that you love one another.

Are Gentiles suppose to follow these commandments?
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.

I know of no verse that says Gentiles aren't supposed to keep the commandments that say to love one another.
In fact....

Rom 2:11; For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.

Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[james1523]

Which part of the law?
The parts about circumcision, sacrifices, priests, and stoning these who break the law? There are literally hundreds of verses about these things, here are a few examples.

Gen 17:10; "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11; "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:13; "A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14; "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Exod 29:14; "But the flesh of the bull and its hide and its refuse, you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.
Exod 29:36; "Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to consecrate it.

Lev 4:22; 'When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the LORD his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty,
Lev 4:23; if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a male without defect.
Lev 4:24; 'He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.

Lev 5:4; 'Or if a person swears thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, in whatever matter a man may speak thoughtlessly with an oath, and it is hidden from him, and then he comes to know it, he will be guilty in one of these.
Lev 5:5; 'So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned.
Lev 5:6; 'He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.

Lev 19:22; 'The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the LORD for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him.

Lev 24:14; "Bring the one who has cursed outside the camp, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head; then let all the congregation stone him.
Lev 24:16; 'Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

Or the part about loving your neighbor.

Rom 2:22; You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
Rom 2:23; You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
Rom 2:24; No wonder the Scriptures say, "The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."
Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God's law. But if you don't obey God's law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.

We are no longer under the penalty of the law.
Rom 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 7:5; When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

But we are still under obligation to love our neighbors.

Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Otherwise why would both Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) and Jesus tell us over and over again to keep his commandments?
Which commandments specifically?

Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:17; "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

John 13:34; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 15:12; "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
John 15:17; "This I command you, that you love one another.

Are Gentiles suppose to follow these commandments?
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.

I know of no verse that says Gentiles aren't supposed to keep the commandments that say to love one another.
In fact....

Rom 2:11; For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.

Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). The Old Testament law was never intended to be a universal law for all peoples. Remember the part about grafting, both Jew and Gentile are grafted into Christ. God's commands are to love Him and our neighbors, if we do this, we are doing all that God requires of us. This command did not originate from the Law of Moses.. it existed before the Law of Moses, and was reaffirmed in the New Testament. Seventh Day Adventism goes back to the Law, and teaches Gentiles to obey the Old Testament Law. This is obvious from the 13 requirements at SDA at baptism that I listed previously. If you want to keep the law, good luck finding a temple in which you can offer your sacrifices .

 

[brakelite]

When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). The Old Testament law was never intended to be a universal law for all peoples. Remember the part about grafting, both Jew and Gentile are grafted into Christ. God's commands are to love Him and our neighbors, if we do this, we are doing all that God requires of us. This command did not originate from the Law of Moses.. it existed before the Law of Moses, and was reaffirmed in the New Testament. Seventh Day Adventism goes back to the Law, and teaches Gentiles to obey the Old Testament Law. This is obvious from the 13 requirements at SDA at baptism that I listed previously. If you want to keep the law, good luck finding a temple in which you can offer your sacrifices .

And here is precisely where so many get tripped up over the "law". Do you know the old maxim, that if A=C, and B=C, then A must =B. Right? Simple logic. Basic maths.
Now lets apply that simplicity to spiritual things such as the law.

I am talking specifically to the moral law of the Ten Commandments. Each one of those in effect well before Moses, and as you will see and hopefully understand, apart from the Sabbath (which Adam beat by one day) before even Adam.
Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, David had this to say regarding the law.
Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Thy word, for all Thy commandments are righteousness.

The prophet Isaiah, under inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, spoke the following, as if it were God Himself speaking:
Isaiah 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

So, thus far we have the same Holy Spirit speaking through David and Isaiah. He said through David, that all God's commandments are righteousness. Through Isaiah He said that His righteousness (that is God's) shall never be abolished. Getting the picture? Let me continue.
A part of God's righteousness is His love, in fact I would suggest God's love dominates and motivates everything He does, and everything He is. As John said: God is love.
Jesus said at one time that the commandments to love God and your neighbour are what all the law and prophets depend. Upon those two great commandments they hang He said. So God's love, and His righteousness, and His commandments are all synonomous. They are therefore, including His commandments, a part of His character. His commandments are an expression of God's character of love, that is why Paul was able to say that love fulfils the law. You have pretty well said the same above. But James, far from replacing the Ten Commandments, love is the means by which those commandments are obeyed. It is God's love which is placed within the Christian heart, both Jew and Gentile, it is His laws of love that is promised in the NT to be written upon the heart and mind.
The NT does not annul the law...how can God's character be annulled? No, the purpose of the NT is to find a way by which the law can be obeyed. That way is through the love of God in the heart and mind shed abroad to God and to our neighbour. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit. The salf same Spirit which annointed both David and Isaiah.

 

[DHC]

The NT does not annul the law...how can God's character be annulled? No, the purpose of the NT is to find a way by which the law can be obeyed. That way is through the love of God in the heart and mind shed abroad to God and to our neighbour. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit. The salf same Spirit which annointed both David and Isaiah.

Hello brakelite.

I have some issues with the subject of the thread you posted.

Here is an example;

Deuteronomy 5:15
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the
Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an
outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to
observe the sabbath day.

I am a Gentile, I never was a slave in Egypt, nor am I a descendant of
a slave. The commandment in this verse was given to physical Israel.
This I can prove from the scriptures.

I require of you the specific instruction from Christ himself that the
Gentiles are bound by the laws of Moses. As the O.T is very clear
that physical Israel was bound by the old Covenant.

Also, if you do not mind brakelite, what does "binding" mean?

Do you accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians;

Thirdly, Christ expanded and altered some of these ten laws ,
I see no mention of this in this constitution? Christ mentioned
oath taking, etc. Where is this in the constitution?

 

[james1523]

And here is precisely where so many get tripped up over the "law". Do you know the old maxim, that if A=C, and B=C, then A must =B. Right? Simple logic. Basic maths.
Now lets apply that simplicity to spiritual things such as the law.

I am talking specifically to the moral law of the Ten Commandments. Each one of those in effect well before Moses, and as you will see and hopefully understand, apart from the Sabbath (which Adam beat by one day) before even Adam.
Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, David had this to say regarding the law.
Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Thy word, for all Thy commandments are righteousness.

The prophet Isaiah, under inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, spoke the following, as if it were God Himself speaking:
Isaiah 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

So, thus far we have the same Holy Spirit speaking through David and Isaiah. He said through David, that all God's commandments are righteousness. Through Isaiah He said that His righteousness (that is God's) shall never be abolished. Getting the picture? Let me continue.
A part of God's righteousness is His love, in fact I would suggest God's love dominates and motivates everything He does, and everything He is. As John said: God is love.
Jesus said at one time that the commandments to love God and your neighbour are what all the law and prophets depend. Upon those two great commandments they hang He said. So God's love, and His righteousness, and His commandments are all synonomous. They are therefore, including His commandments, a part of His character. His commandments are an expression of God's character of love, that is why Paul was able to say that love fulfils the law. You have pretty well said the same above. But James, far from replacing the Ten Commandments, love is the means by which those commandments are obeyed. It is God's love which is placed within the Christian heart, both Jew and Gentile, it is His laws of love that is promised in the NT to be written upon the heart and mind.
The NT does not annul the law...how can God's character be annulled? No, the purpose of the NT is to find a way by which the law can be obeyed. That way is through the love of God in the heart and mind shed abroad to God and to our neighbour. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit. The salf same Spirit which annointed both David and Isaiah.

Actually I agree with what you say as long as we understand that Gentiles don't have to keep the Law of Moses as the written law. The word law can mean different things in different context. It can mean the established rules that a person must follow e.g. the Law of Moses... or it can mean the principle or action behind something (e.g. the law of gravity). When someone says to me "the 10 commandments" I immediately think of the commandments written on stone tablets.. the written law. I agree that the moral laws/principles behind and written in the 10 commandments existed before Moses and still exist today. But I would not call them the 10 commandments, this expression refers primarily to the written Law of Moses. The 10 commandments were a summary of the whole 600+ Law of Moses which was binding only to Old Testament Israel. And we note that the commands to love God and love others.. are not one of the 10 commandments. The issue of whether or not Christians needed to keep the Law of Moses, was addressed in Acts 15... and the outcome was a definite 'no'. So on one hand I believe the old testament written law of Moses was annulled.. but I agree that the laws aka principles of God concerning His nature and His desires.. were not annulled. We have to make clear distinction between the written law for Israel under the Old Covenant and the spirit of law for both Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant. When we confuse the two we fall into trouble.

I should also add that the Old Testament command to love God and love neighbor is also changed in the New Testament to "love God and love your Christian brother/sister" (1 John 4:21). And not only to love God the Father.. but especially to love the Son and also the Holy Spirit. So there were some changes/additions made to the old testament love commands as well

 

[Barny]

It is by Christ's obedience that we are made righteous. He obeyed for us, and now He substitutes His obedience for our past disobedience; and thus we stand justified before God.

Hi brakelite,

I don't have any problems with your statement above.

But, the following parts of your post is where we differ.

Good works in keeping the law of God are the logical sequence, or fruits, of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. One cannot save himself by keeping the law, but a saved man will keep the law because of the fact that he is saved. It is the fruit by which the tree is known.......
........And we receive law keeping “as a sign, a mark attesting the reality of the faith-righteousness” which comes to us by believing on Christ and permitting Him to dwell in the soul. Thus our righteousness does not come by the “deeds of the law,” but the deeds of the law do witness to its presence and to its genuineness.

No doubt you were referring to me when you said that someone charged that Adventists "obscure error behind truth".
And sadly, after reading your post here I still see Adventist error being hidden behind truth.

You claim that "a saved man will keep the law because of the fact that he is saved".

So what is it to "keep the law"?
James 2:10 tells us that it's perfect obedience.

And anyone who knows Adventists knows that they fail to keep the law any better than Christians from any other denomination.
Does this mean Adventists are not saved (based on your statement above)?

In fact, without this “faith-righteousness,” all our efforts to keep the law are doomed to utter failure; but trusting Him to do the work, our weakness is overcome, we become connected with the boundless power of Omnipotence, and thus we “can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth” us. Philippians 4:13. In this way our faith is shown by our works, as stated by the apostle James: “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” James 2:17, 18.

Phil 4:13 is not speaking of being able to keep the law through Christ.
Consider the verses before for context and you will see this scripture does not support your claim of keeping the law.
Phil 4:11-13
Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christwho strengthens me.

Adventism claims that obedience to the law is the works that shows our faith.
This is error doctrine.

Instead we see that believing in Jesus is the works that Jesus said we are to do , John 6:29.
And then we see that in believing in Jesus we are "justified by faith without the deeds of the law," Rom 3:28.

Sadly, the Adventist doctrine mixes grace with works of the law, and God says this cannot be.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

The Adventist doctrine pursues the wrong works (righteousness through the law) which shows that they do not have faith.

 

[james1523]

Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.

These verses prove that "God's law" referred to here is not the Law of Moses (including the 10 commandments). It refers to uncircumcised Gentiles keeping God's law.. but circumcision was part of the Law of Moses. Therefore it cannot refer to Gentiles keeping the Law of Moses but the keeping of God's moral law.

Adam, Eve and all who lived before Moses were under God's moral law. The Law of Moses was only given to the Israelites as specific instructions for how they should obey God. All of the other peoples in the earth.. the gentiles.. were under God's moral law.

What is amazing is that these verses say that uncircumcised Gentiles are able to keep the Law.. just as Abel and Enoch was able to keep the law but others like Cain did not. This is because although humankind is corrupted by sin and the fall... humanity still has a good side, and we still have a conscience. If a person follows their good nature and their good conscience and thereby obeys God's moral law.. they may be accepted as one of God's people (Rom 2:26). This is good news for all those people who have not had the opportunity to hear about Christ.

 

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite.

I have some issues with the subject of the thread you posted.

Here is an example;

Deuteronomy 5:15
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the
Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an
outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to
observe the sabbath day.

I am a Gentile, I never was a slave in Egypt, nor am I a descendant of
a slave. The commandment in this verse was given to physical Israel.
This I can prove from the scriptures.

But DHC, you were a slave to sin. You were also the descendant of a slave to sin. Therefore God did bring you out of bondage, and after a life of rebellion and enmity against His laws, He would do for you as He did for His people Israel. Show them what a life of righteousness entails. He may have accepted you as a sinner, but He doesn't leave you as one.

Sin, that lifestyle to which you were formerly a slave =unrighteousness.
Transgression of the law =sin.
Therefore the axiom 2 things equalling the same thing must be equal to each other applies here:

unrighteousness =transgression of the law, which is the negative perspective of the positive lifestyle that God desires for all of us,

righteousness =obedience to the law.
Now what law is it that righteousness is obedience to, and to which disobedience is sin? It is that very same law that says "Thou shalt not covet", for Paul tells us that this is the law which convinced him of sin. (Romans 7:7) The law of ten Commandments then is the measure of the righteousness of God. In fact DHC, there is no other righteousness. It is a transcript of His character. How can you claim that His character does not apply to Gentiles, when in the beginning God created man in His image and likeness, long before there was a Jew or Gentile?

I require of you the specific instruction from Christ himself that the
Gentiles are bound by the laws of Moses. As the O.T is very clear
that physical Israel was bound by the old Covenant.

You started off quoting the Ten Commandments, which is a part of the law of God, now you are speaking of the law of Moses, a different set of laws altogether.

Also, if you do not mind brakelite, what does "binding" mean?

Do you accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians;

It means DHC that it is still a commandment. It has not been annulled, abrogated, compromised: the authority of the Lawgiver still stands.

Thirdly, Christ expanded and altered some of these ten laws ,
I see no mention of this in this constitution? Christ mentioned
oath taking, etc. Where is this in the constitution?

No DHC, you misunderstand what Jesus was saying to the lawyers and scribes etc. He wasn't changing anything. He was merely pointing out what the true meaning of the commandments were all along. That sin begins in the heart of man, the actions are merely the outworking of what has already been decided within. Which is precisley why God promises in the NT a new heart, with His laws written upon them, rather than on tables of stone. 2Corinthians 3:3
BTW DHC, what James quoted is not a constitution, the SDA church does not have a constitution or a creed. They prefer not to lock its members into anything which the Holy Spirit may at some time shed more light on. The church has 27 fundamental beliefs, all based on scripture, but are open ended inm as much as more may be added, or the existing ones broadened as the Holy Spirit sees fit.

 

[brakelite]

The Adventist doctrine pursues the wrong works (righteousness through the law) which shows that they do not have faith.

I could reply to many things you have posted but would like to comment just on this for now. In none of the church writings will you find it stated that it is an established belief that Christians should trust in the law or their obedience in order to be found righteous. Constant throughout adventist writings is the maxim that by beholding Christ we become changed, and that change is made through trial and adversity and the ministration of the Spirit through God's word. Thus the only ground you have for claiming otherwise is your personal judgment call on the adventists' motives. You are claiming to be able to read hearts. You sure you want to continue along that line?

 

[B-A-C]

These verses prove that "God's law" referred to here is not the Law of Moses (including the 10 commandments). It refers to uncircumcised Gentiles keeping God's law.. but circumcision was part of the Law of Moses. Therefore it cannot refer to Gentiles keeping the Law of Moses but the keeping of God's moral law.

All law is God's law. Who gave the law to Moses on the mountain? Did Moses wrote them on the stone tablets himself?
The point isn't that you have to be circumcised. The point is that you don't have to be circumcised anymore.
Rom 2:26;
(KJV) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
You can't be circumcised and uncircumcised at the same time. But you can be uncircumcised and love your neighbor and God.
(AMP) So if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be credited to him as [equivalent to] circumcision?
(ASV) If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
(GW) So if a man does what Moses' Teachings demand, won't he be considered circumcised even if he is uncircumcised?
(MSG) The reverse is also true: The uncircumcised who keep God's ways are as good as the circumcised--
(NLT) And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
(NASB) So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

The Gentiles who don't keep the law will die, plain and simple. (If they aren't saved)
Rom 2:12;
(AMP) All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.
(GW) Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.
(KJV) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(NLT) When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

John 15:17; "This I command you, that you love one another.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

If you aren't loving God and your neighbor you aren't doing what Jesus and Paul said to do.
If you are loving God and your neighbor, your following the commandments whether you mean to or not.

 

[james1523]

All law is God's law. Who gave the law to Moses on the mountain? Did Moses wrote them on the stone tablets himself?

Of course it is God's law, but is not God's law to me as a Gentile. I do not deny Law of Moses is God's law. But I deny it was even given to me or any other Gentile. Here is the proof: the verse says uncircumcised Gentiles can keep the law. But according to the Law of Moses a person must be circumcised. So therefore if an uncircumcised Gentile can keep the law.. the law it is referring to must not be the Law of Moses.

How can the Law of Moses be kept by Gentiles when a) it was given to the Israelites, and b) circumcision was a requirement to keep the Law of Moses..but it says that uncircumcised Gentiles can keep it.

And yes Moses did do some writing: Exodus 24:4, "And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD.."
Exodus 34:27, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenantwith thee and with Israel
It was both God and Moses writing. I believe that God wrote the 10 commandments, and Moses wrote the rest as he was told (including the two about love).

The point isn't that you have to be circumcised. The point is that you don't have to be circumcised anymore.

Don't have to be circumcised anymore?? Well I never had to be circumcised anyway because I'm not an Israelite LOL. Circumcision means nothing to me because I have never had to live under that Old Covenant. God would accept me on the basis of my faith , just like He accepted Abel and Noah and Enoch on the basis of their faith.. without circumcision. Circumcision was only a sign for the Old Covenant between God and the people of Israel starting with Abraham and ending with Christ: Gen 17:9-14

If you aren't loving God and your neighbor you aren't doing what Jesus and Paul said to do.
If you are loving God and your neighbor, your following the commandments whether you mean to or not.

Those aren't even part of the 10 commandments. Those two laws as God's moral law existed well before the Law of Moses.

 

[B-A-C]

Quote Originally Posted by B-A-C View Post
If you aren't loving God and your neighbor you aren't doing what Jesus and Paul said to do.
If you are loving God and your neighbor, your following the commandments whether you mean to or not.

Those aren't even part of the 10 commandments. Those two laws as God's moral law existed well before the Law of Moses.

These are EXACTLY the 10 commandments.
If you are murdering, lying to, committing adultery with, or stealing from your neighbor, you are doing the opposite of the 10 commandments.
If you are doing any of those things to your neighbor, you certainly aren't loving them.

Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Notice Jesus says loving your neighbor (together with loving God) is the whole law of the prophets (is Moses a prophet?)

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Paul says the same thing, if you aren't stealing from, committing adultery with, or murdering your neighbor, you are showing them love.

John says the same thing.
1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
2 Jn 1:5; Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

John 15:17; "This I command you, that you love one another.

Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

If you love your neighbor you are obeying the 10 commandments.

 

[B-A-C]

Is lying a sin? Is stealing a sin? Is committing adultery a sin?
How do you know?

 

[james1523]

These are EXACTLY the 10 commandments.
If you are murdering, lying to, committing adultery with, or stealing from your neighbor, you are doing the opposite of the 10 commandments.
If you are doing any of those things to your neighbor, you certainly aren't loving them.

Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Notice Jesus says loving your neighbor (together with loving God) is the whole law of the prophets (is Moses a prophet?)

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Paul says the same thing, if you aren't stealing from, committing adultery with, or murdering your neighbor, you are showing them love.

John says the same thing.
1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
2 Jn 1:5; Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

John 15:17; "This I command you, that you love one another.

Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

If you love your neighbor you are obeying the 10 commandments.

We need to consider the context of Matt 22:36 where Jesus is answering a specific question by a Jew about the Law of Moses. Of course when answering this question Jesus would answer from the Law of Moses. This does not mean the Gentile Christian lives by the Law of Moses. This was resolved in Acts 15 when it was determined that Gentiles did not have to keep the Law of Moses.

Notice that the verse you quoted in 2 Jn 1:5 is referring to the Christian "love one another" command, not the Jewish "love God and love neighbor" command from the Law of Moses. This love one another command was a new commandment, and not from the Law of Moses.
In John 13:34 Jesus gave us a new commandment to "love one another as I have loved you". This is referring to brotherly love in Christ, not to neighborly love which is towards unbelievers also. Notice how the Old Testament command was "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". But the new testament command is "love your brother as I have loved you." The commandments to love for the Christian are not centred around the Jewish Law of Moses but are centred around Christ.

So for Old Testament Jews they had the two commandments, love God and love neighbor. Yet for Christians we are to love one another. If we love our brother in Christ we are loving Christ. Just as if we are injuring our brother we are injuring Christ. The command to love our neighbor depends upon how much love we have for our self. But the command to love our brother depends upon how much love Christ has for us, and is not dependent upon our fallen self.

Is lying a sin? Is stealing a sin? Is committing adultery a sin?
How do you know?

We know because we have a thing called a conscience and God's nature is plainly revealed in His creation (Rom 1:20). This is how the Gentiles who are without the law, can still obey the law if they follow their conscience (Rom 2:14,15). Christians now have the Law of the Spirit (Rom 8:2) and the law of God written on their hearts. Do you think that when Paul traveled to Gentile countries and converts were made, He gave them a copy of the Jewish Law? Many Gentiles had come from Paganism, so the Law of Moses was foreign to them.

Many Christians are following the gospel record of Jesus and His earthly ministry in Matt, Mark, Luke and John and not realizing they could be following the Jewish Law of Moses by default, since much of Jesus's ministry was to the Jews. In contrast, we should be following Christ's ministry in the Spirit, like Paul and all new testament Gentiles did.

So I see many Christians including yourself like to emphasize the Law of Moses and the earthly ministry of Christ to the Jews, but few emphasize Christ's ministry in the Spirit and following the law of the Spirit of life for the Gentile AND Jew.

 

[B-A-C]

Notice that the verse you quoted in 2 Jn 1:5 is referring to the Christian "love one another" command, not the Jewish "love God and love neighbor" command from the Law of Moses. This love one another command was a new commandment, and not from the Law of Moses.

So in other words, loving each other isn't the same thing as loving your neighbor?

We know because we have a thing called a conscience and God's nature is plainly revealed in His creation (Rom 1:20). This is how the Gentiles who are without the law, can still obey the law if they follow their conscience (Rom 2:14, 15). Christians now have the Law of the Spirit (Rom 8:2) and the law of God written on their hearts

Do you think the law written on our hearts is different from God law? Do you think he no longer wants us to love our neighbor or love one another? (take your pick)

Matt 23:23; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

In Matt 23 we see the word "woe" seven times (some translation say "what sorrow awaits you") The pharisee's were using the law as an excuse not to love other people.
They were so focused on legalism, that they didn't see the whole purpose of the law was justice, mercy and faithfulness. Instead of focusing on love, mercy and forgiveness, they choose
things like whether you did any work.

Matt 15:2; "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matt 15:4; "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Matt 15:5; "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Matt 15:6; he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matt 15:7; "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matt 15:8; 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Matt 15:9; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

They were using the excuse of tithing in order not to give money to their parents. Jesus called them hypocrites for not honoring their mother and fathers.
Jesus was saying love triumphs over the law. God isn't going to hold it against you if you are doing something to show love to someone else.

Matt 12:10; And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse Him.
Mark 3:2; They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
Luke 14:3; And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?"

Jesus didn't say following the sabbath was wrong, but he went ahead and healed the man. Why? Because love triumphs over the law.
Why is this important? Because if we love one another we have fulfilled the law. Jesus was trying to show them that the law was meant to show us how to love and be fair
to one another. i.e. don't murder each other, don't steal from each other, etc...

So I see many Christians including yourself like to emphasize the Law of Moses and the earthly ministry of Christ to the Jews

I see no where in the Bible that says the OT never applied to the Gentiles. It was given to the Jews yes, but it applies to the whole world.

ll of this doesn't matter that much to me, maybe you don't believe in following the commandments, and that's OK. At least you agree we should love one another
and I think that's close enough.

 

[james1523]

So in other words, loving each other isn't the same thing as loving your neighbor?

That's correct because Jesus gave them a new commandment to love one another by virtue of the fact that they were all brothers due to their common faith in Him. It is this new commandment that 1 John mentions, brotherly love.. not merely neighborly love. Your neighbor is the person you pass on the street. But your brother is your brother in Christ. If we teach only to love God and love our neighbor as we love ourself.. we are neglecting Christ's commandment to love one another .. not as we love ourself.. but as Christ loves us.

Do you think the law written on our hearts is different from God law? Do you think he no longer wants us to love our neighbor or love one another? (take your pick)

The Law written on the heart is the Law that existed in the time of Noah and prior, i.e. God's moral Law for all peoples. But the Law of Moses was only to the Israelites. So the law written on the heart is different from the Law of Moses (including 10 commandments) because it doesn't include circumcision and other specific commands for the Israelites etc.

Matt 23:23; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

In Matt 23 we see the word "woe" seven times (some translation say "what sorrow awaits you") The pharisee's were using the law as an excuse not to love other people.
They were so focused on legalism, that they didn't see the whole purpose of the law was justice, mercy and faithfulness. Instead of focusing on love, mercy and forgiveness, they choose
things like whether you did any work.

Matt 15:2; "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matt 15:4; "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Matt 15:5; "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Matt 15:6; he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matt 15:7; "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matt 15:8; 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Matt 15:9; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

They were using the excuse of tithing in order not to give money to their parents. Jesus called them hypocrites for not honoring their mother and fathers.
Jesus was saying love triumphs over the law. God isn't going to hold it against you if you are doing something to show love to someone else.

Matt 12:10; And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse Him.
Mark 3:2; They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
Luke 14:3; And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?"

Jesus didn't say following the sabbath was wrong, but he went ahead and healed the man. Why? Because love triumphs over the law.
Why is this important? Because if we love one another we have fulfilled the law. Jesus was trying to show them that the law was meant to show us how to love and be fair
to one another. i.e. don't murder each other, don't steal from each other, etc...

Yes I agree with that . It's not wrong to keep the Sabbath if you're an Old Covenant Jew... but it is wrong for a New Covenant Gentile because God never gave those commandments to the Gentiles. There's no record that Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Adam, Lot, Abel.. etc kept the Sabbath.

I see no where in the Bible that says the OT never applied to the Gentiles. It was given to the Jews yes, but it applies to the whole world.

The proof that the Law of Moses is only for Gentiles is that it was given only to Moses and the Israelites and not to the surrounding nations. If it's given to the Israelites only then it applies only to the Israelites. Israel was a special nation with special instructions from God and no other nation were given His laws in this way, as it says here:
Psalm 147:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.


The Seventh Day Adventists bring Christians into bondage by declaring that they must keep the 10 commandments. But the Law of Moses was never for the Gentiles. If they wish to impose any Old Testament Law they should use the laws that Adam , Noah and Abraham kept.. before Moses. Adam, Noah and Abraham did not keep the Sabbath. Christians also are not bound to keep the Sabbath or the other 9 commandments + 600 or so given to Israel,.. only God's moral law written on their conscience.

To give an analogy, if we are a citizen of France, we are not obliged to keep the laws of the UK, and vice versa, even though many of those laws may be similar. As citizens of God's kingdom Christians are not obliged to keep the laws of Israel even though many are similar to God's moral law in the time of Noah etc. We should be clear that the 10 commandments are very much a part of the Law of Moses given to Israel only, and exist as a complete set of laws in addition to the other 600 or so. These laws correspond also to the Old Covenant.

Some may think that God gave Christians a revised or updated set of the Law of Moses and the 10 commandments to the Gentiles. This is not the case. The Law of Moses never applied to them nor were transferred from the Old into the New Covenant. This would be equivalent to moving from France to the UK and the UK government requiring you to keep some French laws and some UK laws. But it doesn't work like that. Rather we are to live according to the law of the Spirit of life and law of the conscience in keeping God's moral law.

 

[B-A-C]

The Seventh Day Adventists bring Christians into bondage by declaring that they must keep the 10 commandments.

I have news for you. At both Baptists and Pentecostal Bible school, I was taught the 10 commandments still apply. Not in the sense that that our salvation is dependent on them.
But that they define what sin is. I also attended a Lutheran church for several years and I assure they believe the 10 commandments still apply.
But I digress. They don't focus so much on each individual thing... i.e. don't covet, don't bear false witness, etc... as the total being... "love one another" (as Jesus put it).
Some sins you know by experience. If you've ever been lied to, or stolen from, you know it hurts. Some take this to mean "they are written on your heart".
Other sins, such as adultery and homosexuality may not have been taught to you by past experience. We know these are wrong because of the Bible.

Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Without the law, we wouldn't know certain things are sin.

Some people argue that the "knowledge of good and evil" is passed on from generation to generation. If this were true, we wouldn't have different opinions of what sin is.
In the state I live in, abortion, same sex marriage, and viewing pornography that exploits children is legal. Over a million people voted that they wanted these things.
Does that mean they aren't sin? Who defines what sin is, man or God. Does God lower his standards to meet what the flesh and satan want?

 

[james1523]

I will post a little about the Council in Jerusalem which determined the Gentiles did not have to keep the Law of Moses. We note that the Law of Moses includes the 10 commandments and the commands to love God and love neighbor..

Some , the Pharisee believers were troubling the Gentiles by saying they had to keep the Law of Moses:
Acts 15
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

It was resolved that the Gentiles did not have to keep the Law of Moses. Rather, some instructions were given to them so that they would not offend the Jews (vs 21):

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

For all the fuss and effort that is made by Christians today to promote the 10 commandments and loving God and loving others.. it is interesting that the command to love God and love others is mentioned nowhere here. The Gentiles were not instructed to keep any part of the law of Moses, not even the 10 commandments nor the commands to love God and love others.

This does not mean the Gentiles were without law, nor does it mean they were allowed to not love God or not love others. It was because the Gentiles had already received the Holy Spirit by faith and the law of the Spirit of life in their being and the apostles knew this. For this reason to give them a command to love God and love others was unnecessary... loving God and loving others was a natural response to receiving salvation by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is a pervading myth in Christianity that a person must be taught the 10 commandments and the two greatest commandments about love. But actually according 1 John 2:27 and Jer 31:34 Christians have received an anointing and are taught by God directly, and so preaching the 10 commandments is not required.