Clothed in Righteousness

[Sue J Love]

Wednesday, May 27, 2015, 5:48 p.m. – The Lord Jesus put in mind the song, “Broken and Contrite.” Speak, Lord, your words to my heart. I read 2 Corinthians 5 (NASB).

In This House

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.​

Our earthly tent is our physical body in which dwells the real us (our human spirit). If we are believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our lives, via death with Christ to sin and being made alive to God and to his righteousness, by the Holy Spirit’s work of transforming our hearts and minds away from sin and to God, our bodies will also house the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to us as a pledge of what is to come for the one who is believing in Jesus Christ, which is the promise of eternal life with God beginning now and forevermore.

One day we will die (our bodies will die), if Jesus does not return before then and take us to be with him, and our physical bodies will be “torn down.” These bodies in which we live are just temporary. Yet, when believers in Jesus Christ die physically, we have a dwelling in heaven made ready for us by Jesus. In the meanwhile, we groan because in these bodies we suffer pain, sickness, sorrow, grief, distress, persecution, rejection, abandonment and temptation to sin, etc. We also groan because we long to be free of these physical bodies which are subject to decay, and to be in a place where there is no more sin, pain, sorrow, suffering, loneliness or sickness. Amen! Oh, what a glorious day that will be! Most especially we long to be with our Savior face-to-face in perfect harmony and fellowship with him.

Walk by Faith

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

Yet, God put us on the earth for a reason. Certainly we should long for heaven and to no longer be in these flesh bodies, but we should not do so to the exclusion of living the life God has for us on this earth. We should fulfill the purpose for which he placed us here by submitting to the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives in being and in doing what he has called us to be and do. We are not here to entertain ourselves, and to revel in self-pleasure, though I do believe God gave us the gift of laughter and the ability to enjoy life, providing it is not outside of his perfect will for our lives, i.e. providing we are not being entertained by what is sinful, and providing we are not living for self-pleasure (See: Jas. 4:1-10).

I see many people who say they are “saved” talk about how they can’t wait until they get to heaven one day, yet they are living for themselves and their own self-pleasure while they are on this earth and seem to give little thought to God or to what would please him, and to what he has called them to be and to do, for his purposes and for his glory, while they walk the face of this earth. He didn’t save them, if they are truly saved, just so they could go to heaven when they die and so they could escape hell. He saved us so we would no longer live for sin and self but so we would live for him and would walk in his righteousness and holiness, all in the power and working of the Spirit, while we walk the face of this earth. He saved us so we would become his willing servants and messengers, and so we would live holy lives pleasing to him now, on the earth, and until the end of our lives on this earth.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, where each one of us will receive what is due us for what we have done, good or bad, while we lived in these bodies. This is not speaking of works-based salvation. This is not salvation based on our good deeds outweighing our bad deeds. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not via works done in the flesh (See: Eph. 2:8-10). Yet, as James said, “Faith without deeds is dead.” The Bible says the way in which we believe in Jesus is by forsaking (dying to) sin, being transformed in heart and mind (of the Spirit of God), and by putting on Christ, being born of the Spirit of God, “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (See: Luke 9:23-25; John 6:35-65; 10:27-30; Ac. 26:16-18; Ro. 8:3-14; 2 Co. 5:15; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 2:8-10; 4:17-24; Tit. 2:11-14; 1 Pet. 2:24-25; & 1 Jn. 1:5-9).

The Fear of the Lord

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

What does it mean to fear the Lord? It means to show him reverence, respect, honor, value, esteem, obedience and submission, and to worship him by living holy lives, pleasing to him, no longer conformed to the ways of this sinful world, but transformed in the renewing of our minds away from living for sin and self to living for the one who gave himself up for us. We do this by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and in the power of the Spirit of God now living within us.

Since the apostles knew, not just intellectually but experientially, what it is to fear the Lord, they tried to persuade human beings to also fear the Lord. They did so by telling people the truth of what the Word of God teaches with regard to our salvation and to belief in Jesus Christ, that it means death to sin and living to righteousness, no longer walking according to the flesh, but now walking according to the Spirit. Amen!

When we believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and as Savior of our lives, and we die with Christ to sin, we are also resurrected with Christ to new lives in Christ Jesus, born of the Spirit of God. By faith in Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the condemnation of sin nor are we under slavery to sin, for he has freed us to be slaves of righteousness. Yet, all this is the working of God.

But, so many people are being taught that faith in Jesus is a mere acknowledgement of what he did for them in dying on the cross for their sins and in being resurrected from the dead in conquering death, hell, sin and Satan. Or, they are being instructed to pray a certain prayer, and then they are told they are now saved, guaranteed heaven when they die, and that nothing can ever take that away from them, no matter how they live their lives from that day forward. Yet, they leave out the fact that we must die to sin and self, and that we must be born of the Spirit of God, and that we must now walk in obedience to our Lord. A saved life is a changed life. It is not a slightly cleaned up old life. We died to sin. How can we live in it any longer?

Broken and Contrite / An Original Work / May 13, 2012

I come before You, Lord, my Savior,
With humble heart and crushed in spirit.
I bow before You, I implore You,
Heal my broken heart, I pray.
Love You, Jesus, Lord, my master,
You are the King of my heart.
Lord, purify my heart within me;
Sanctify me, whole within.

Oh, Lord, I long to obey fully
The words You’ve spoken through Your Spirit.
I pray You give me grace and mercy,
Strength and wisdom to obey.
Father God, my heart’s desire,
Won’t You set my heart on fire?
Lord, cleanse my heart of all that hinders
My walk with You, now I pray.

Oh, Jesus, Savior, full of mercy,
My heart cries out for understanding.
I want to follow You in all ways,
Never straying from Your truth.
Holy Spirit, come in power,
Fill me with Your love today.
Lord, mold and make me;
Your hands formed me;
Live Your life through me, I pray.

 

[RJ]

Yet, they leave out the fact that we must die to sin and self, and that we must be born of the Spirit of God, and that we must now walk in obedience to our Lord.

When you are "Born Again",you receive the Holy Spirit in you and you do die to sin and the old self and are born anew. If you are "born of the Spirit of God", there is no such thing as you "MUST" walk in obedience to the Lord, you just do freely or you are not "Born Again"!

 

[Sue J Love]

When you are "Born Again",you receive the Holy Spirit in you and you do die to sin and the old self and are born anew. If you are "born of the Spirit of God", there is no such thing as you "MUST" walk in obedience to the Lord, you just do freely or you are not "Born Again"!

RJ, Thank you for responding. I understand that this is what you believe, so I would ask you to prayerfully consider the following scriptures, which I believe teach that we must walk in obedience to Christ:

John 8:51: “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

John 14:23-24: “Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.”

Romans 6:16: “Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?”

Hebrews 5:9: “…and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”

1 Peter 1:2: “…who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”

1 John 2:3-6: “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 John 3:24: “Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”

1 John 5:3: “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome…”

2 John 1:6: “And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.”

 

[Sue J Love]

When you are "Born Again",you receive the Holy Spirit in you and you do die to sin and the old self and are born anew. If you are "born of the Spirit of God", there is no such thing as you "MUST" walk in obedience to the Lord, you just do freely or you are not "Born Again"!

RJ, I would also ask that you prayerfully consider these verses:

Luke 9:23-25: “And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?”

John 10:27-30: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Acts 26:16-18: “But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’”

2 Co. 5:15: “…and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.”

Gal. 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

Ephesians 2:8-10: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Ephesians 4:17-24: “Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.”

Titus 2:11-14: “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.”

1 Pet. 2:24-25: “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”

Ro. 8:3-14: “For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”

1 Jn. 1:5-9: “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

 

[Sue J Love]

When you are "Born Again",you receive the Holy Spirit in you and you do die to sin and the old self and are born anew. If you are "born of the Spirit of God", there is no such thing as you "MUST" walk in obedience to the Lord, you just do freely or you are not "Born Again"!

RJ, I would like it if you would also consider the following, which I may have shared with you previously (I don't remember):

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” John 5:24

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.” John 6:35

“He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:38

Young’s Literal Translation of v. 35 renders: “And Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of the life; he who is coming unto me may not hunger, and he who is believing in me may not thirst -- at any time.” I am no Greek student, so I have to rely upon Bible study helps, but from what I understand of Greek, they have a verb tense in Greek we do not have in English. It translates to meaning a continuous action, such as “is coming,” and “is believing,” rather than “comes” and “believes,” which can sound like one-time events. So, what does this mean, and is it supported by other scriptures? What it means is that believing in Jesus Christ is not a one-time decision we make at an altar and “bam” we have our ticket into heaven and no one can ever take it away from us, not even ourselves.

One of the most misquoted scriptures I know is John 10:28-29 where it speaks of no one being able to snatch Jesus’ sheep out of his or the Father’s hands. In context, Jesus was speaking to unbelieving Jews. He told them that they did not believe him, because they were not his sheep. Then he gave a description of his sheep (v. 27): “My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me.” To listen is not merely to listen with our physical ears, but it means to pay attention and to be attentive, and it can involve following or heeding what is said. To follow means to obey. No one will do this perfectly all the time, but the Lord’s sheep should be characterized as those who generally and consistently are ones who are actively listening for and to his voice, and who make it a practice of their lives to do what he says. This involves continuous action on the part of the ones listening and following. These are they who are not able to be snatched out of the Lord’s hands.

So, is this supported by other New Testament passages? Yes. Evidently John 3:16 uses the same Greek word translated as “believing” instead of “believes” to describe those who will not perish but will have everlasting life. There are actually many such scriptures in the New Testament, which some people ignore or try to explain away, which clearly state that true belief is continuous belief, which goes along with what scripture teaches concerning our salvation, i.e. that we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved when Christ returns. In other words, we can’t pray some prayer at an altar and get our “get-out-of-jail free card” and guarantee of heaven when we die if we don’t continue in that faith, and if we go back to living according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit (See: John 8:31-32; Romans 11:17-24; I Co 15:2; Col 1:21-23; II Tim 2:10-13; Hebrews 3:6, 14-15; 2 Pet. 1:5-11; I John 2:24-25).

The same Greek word translated "believe" or "believeth" (KJV) in the Gospels is used in Acts, Romans, and on, to describe the kind of belief required for salvation and eternal life. It is a continuous action verb, meaning “is believing” (present), not “has believed” (past). The word is πιστεύων. The same is true for the scriptures I shared about “being saved.” That verb has the same “continuous action” verb tense. We are saved (past), we are being saved (present) and we will be saved (future). It is what scripture teaches. We can’t deny it. Where you read “believeth” in these verses, the literal translation is “is believing,” meaning continuous belief.

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Ac. 10:43).

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Ro. 1:16).

“As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed” (Ro. 9:33).

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Ro. 10:4).

“Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded” (1 Pet. 2:6).

 

[Sue J Love]

When you are "Born Again",you receive the Holy Spirit in you and you do die to sin and the old self and are born anew. If you are "born of the Spirit of God", there is no such thing as you "MUST" walk in obedience to the Lord, you just do freely or you are not "Born Again"!

RJ, I would also ask that you prayerfully consider these verses, which fit with "believing" in Jesus for salvation being a present-continuous belief:

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” (John 8:31-32)

“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!” (Romans 11:17-24)

“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain” (I Co 15:2)

“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant” (Col 1:21-23).

“Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself” (II Tim 2:10-13).

“… And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion” (Hebrews 3:6, 14-15).

“For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (II Peter 1:5-11).

“See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life” (I John 2:24-25).

 

[Sue J Love]

When you are "Born Again",you receive the Holy Spirit in you and you do die to sin and the old self and are born anew. If you are "born of the Spirit of God", there is no such thing as you "MUST" walk in obedience to the Lord, you just do freely or you are not "Born Again"!

RJ - last one: I would also ask that you prayerfully consider these verses, because they teach that we have been saved (past), that we are being saved (present-continuous) and that we will be saved (future) when Christ returns for his bride:

“For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?” (Ro. 8:24)

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Co. 1:18)

“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain” (1 Co. 15:1-2).

“For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing” (2 Co. 2:15).

“…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved…” (Eph. 2:5)

“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim. 1:8-9).

“… so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him” (Heb. 9:28).

“Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed” (Ro. 13:11).

“And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation” (Heb. 5:9).

“…who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Pet. 1:5).

“…and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls” (1 Pet. 1:8-9).

 

[RJ]

RJ, Thank you for responding. I understand that this is what you believe, so I would ask you to prayerfully consider the following scriptures, which I believe teach that we must walk in obedience to Christ:

Sue, I know exactly what you are saying, but the "must" stuck out to as a work you must do to keep in God's good grace. I will respond to each scripture:

“For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?” (Ro. 8:24)

This is simply the faith by which we believe the unseen, which God promised by the measure of faith that he gives us. This is not something we must do, but an ability inherited from God.

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Co. 1:18)

I am not sure what this has to do with your point? Sure it is folly to the unbeliever, but we are both believers and saved and we know the cross.

“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain” (1 Co. 15:1-2).

There is nothing here about something you must continue to do or you will lose your salvation. There will be plenty of "so called Christians" who will say Lord-Lord in the end but Jesus will say he never knew them, because they were never saved in the first place, theirs was a false belief, "they believed in vain"! Saved is saved, how do you lose your salvation when God says he will never leave or forsake you and Jesus says he will never lose whoever God gives him!

“For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing” (2 Co. 2:15).

Again, you are a "fragrance of Christ" to God, because he is in you. This does not mean that you can lose what God has done in you, especially when he says he will see you finished to the end. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.He predestined, called (saved), justified and finally glorified. This is the process that the term "are being saved" refers to. It is a process, that you, physically are going through.When you die the process is complete and you are glorified...made perfect. This has nothing to do with you somehow loosing your salvation along the way. You are in Christ, Christ is in heaven and you spiritually are already seated with him in the heavenlys according to scripture.

“…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved…” (Eph. 2:5)

Yes, past tense, you have been saved! It is a done deal!

“Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed” (Ro. 13:11).

“And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation” (Heb. 5:9).

“…who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Pet. 1:5).

“…and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls” (1 Pet. 1:8-9).

None of these has any thing to do with you loosing what God has already done in you through Jesus Christ in you. Your perfection is coming but your promised salvation is complete. Ephesians 2: 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This is the sort of truth that Jesus said would set you free......believe it and live it!

 

[RJ]

RJ, I would like it if you would also consider the following, which I may have shared with you previously (I don't remember):

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” John 5:24

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.” John 6:35

“He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:38

Young’s Literal Translation of v. 35 renders: “And Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of the life; he who is coming unto me may not hunger, and he who is believing in me may not thirst -- at any time.” I am no Greek student, so I have to rely upon Bible study helps, but from what I understand of Greek, they have a verb tense in Greek we do not have in English. It translates to meaning a continuous action, such as “is coming,” and “is believing,” rather than “comes” and “believes,” which can sound like one-time events. So, what does this mean, and is it supported by other scriptures? What it means is that believing in Jesus Christ is not a one-time decision we make at an altar and “bam” we have our ticket into heaven and no one can ever take it away from us, not even ourselves.

One of the most misquoted scriptures I know is John 10:28-29 where it speaks of no one being able to snatch Jesus’ sheep out of his or the Father’s hands. In context, Jesus was speaking to unbelieving Jews. He told them that they did not believe him, because they were not his sheep. Then he gave a description of his sheep (v. 27): “My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me.” To listen is not merely to listen with our physical ears, but it means to pay attention and to be attentive, and it can involve following or heeding what is said. To follow means to obey. No one will do this perfectly all the time, but the Lord’s sheep should be characterized as those who generally and consistently are ones who are actively listening for and to his voice, and who make it a practice of their lives to do what he says. This involves continuous action on the part of the ones listening and following. These are they who are not able to be snatched out of the Lord’s hands.

So, is this supported by other New Testament passages? Yes. Evidently John 3:16 uses the same Greek word translated as “believing” instead of “believes” to describe those who will not perish but will have everlasting life. There are actually many such scriptures in the New Testament, which some people ignore or try to explain away, which clearly state that true belief is continuous belief, which goes along with what scripture teaches concerning our salvation, i.e. that we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved when Christ returns. In other words, we can’t pray some prayer at an altar and get our “get-out-of-jail free card” and guarantee of heaven when we die if we don’t continue in that faith, and if we go back to living according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit (See: John 8:31-32; Romans 11:17-24; I Co 15:2; Col 1:21-23; II Tim 2:10-13; Hebrews 3:6, 14-15; 2 Pet. 1:5-11; I John 2:24-25).

The same Greek word translated "believe" or "believeth" (KJV) in the Gospels is used in Acts, Romans, and on, to describe the kind of belief required for salvation and eternal life. It is a continuous action verb, meaning “is believing” (present), not “has believed” (past). The word is πιστεύων. The same is true for the scriptures I shared about “being saved.” That verb has the same “continuous action” verb tense. We are saved (past), we are being saved (present) and we will be saved (future). It is what scripture teaches. We can’t deny it. Where you read “believeth” in these verses, the literal translation is “is believing,” meaning continuous belief.

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Ac. 10:43).

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Ro. 1:16).

“As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed” (Ro. 9:33).

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Ro. 10:4).

“Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded” (1 Pet. 2:6).

I am not going to answer all these responses from you. I am saved and born again....I believe....I don't know why you keep stressing all this as if I don't believe!

 

[Sue J Love]

I am not going to answer all these responses from you. I am saved and born again....I believe....I don't know why you keep stressing all this as if I don't believe!

RJ, I am in no way questioning your salvation or your relationship with the Lord. You said there is no such thing as MUST obey, but that we do so freely or we are not born again. So, I was merely trying to show you that scripture teaches we "must" obey, i.e. Jesus demands it/God demands it. It is not optional. You said it yourself, really, when you said if we don't obey that we are not really born again. Exactly! It doesn't mean we will do it perfectly or that we will never sin, but that we should be walking no longer according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, but this is not optional either. The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. this is speaking of a continuous walk of faith which is required for salvation. Salvation is a process of a lifetime and it is not complete until Jesus returns. IF we don't continue in that faith, then we don't have salvation. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever is believing (present-continuous) in him has eternal life. We are not saved (past) and then we can live how we want and then go to heaven when we die, which means obedience is required as is repentance as is continuing in him and in his word or we don't have eternal life. So many people these days are teaching we can get saved, live however we want and go to heaven (guaranteed) when we die just because we prayed some prayer or verbally acknowledged what Jesus did for us in dying for our sins. The point of what I was saying is that faith in Jesus Christ is repentant, obedient, surrendered, submissive, and continuous. If it isn't, then we are not saved. We are not guaranteed eternal life. this is what all these scriptures I shared with you teach. I know it was a lot to read, but they all work together to give one complete picture.

Thank you so much for being willing to discuss this with me and for your responses individually to many of those scriptures. I appreciate that very much. Be blessed.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I think you are both describing the same thing from different directions.
Maybe you are passing each other somewhere in the middle.
One direction is attempting to bridge the timeless into time and the other is attempting to bridge time into the timeless.
If I think out of time and space I agree with RJ,but if I judge things from inside time and space I agree with Sue.
Eternal things have no beginning or end and Jesus is a life giving spirit.
The soul has a beginning so is not eternal.
Life as a concept is eternal and I have no doubt that it is a substance beyond the understanding of the living.
But a living soul is not eternal.
Soul translates out to self,identity,person,being,appetite,desire and more.
Those are the things we are supposed to deny and we are to walk by the eternal life giving spirit and ultimately be life to a dead and dying world.
NIV
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
KVJ
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The word "now" is eternal because there is no beginning and no end.
So you can live now or keep on living until his coming and he is always coming.

 

[RJ]

We are not saved (past) and then we can live how we want and then go to heaven

So many people these days are teaching we can get saved, live however we want and go to heaven

No offense Sister, but this is a typical reply of legalism, one who believe you must do works to secure your salvation.

• First, I never said anything even close to your above ' oh so common' statements, and I certainly do not teach it. It is an indication that you feel you must have works (your works) in your life to maintain salvation, rather than acknowledge that it is Christ works through you.
• I don't believe I can do "anything I want to", that is an insult to me. It just so happens, though I make mistakes, I have no desire to do what I want. Like Paul in Romans 7 ( and this is for us to learn from) I do what I don't want and I don't do what I want to. But, just like Paul in Romans 8:1, I realize there is no condemnation for me.
• Again, you are not saved by works but grace alone: Ephesians 2: 8-9.
• Legalism is a sin.