DieAmartyr
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I feel that The Son and The Holy Spirit came from God the Father and that without Him, the others would not be. Is this wrong?
Could The Son and Holy Spirit have existed without the Father?
- Thread starter DieAmartyr
- Start date
A distinction between the Son of God as eternal God our High Priest continuakly without begining of days or end of life (Hebrew 7) and the Son of man, Jesus a temporal man a distinction must be made .
The Son of man had no power he delighted to do the will of the father working together as one they finished demonstrated work of salvation. .
God is not a man as us.
No Father no Son. No Son no Father. Salvation is the work of two working as one God.
only son
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.
Why was the Father greater than the son
Yahashua explains exactly how and why - My Father is greater - BEACAUSE - i go to the Father.
because that I am going to the father - this is why........ as he came out of / eXited out of the conception of the Holy Spirit of God.
Yahashua was going back to sit IN the throne of God - going back to existing as the character and word of the Father from which he exited / came out of
This is all clear reading from the MANUSCRIPTS but the Trinitarian Translation of Rome contradicts every single answer that Yahashua had given - and many, many other answers.
When we read directly from the Original Greek Manuscripts
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith ........ I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting { ἐκ / EX - OUT OF } the right of power, .......................................................... ἐκ = ek / EX
The Greek word " EX " Means = A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; , from (among, forth out (from, of), (-out of ).
NEVER - NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE TIME - do we find Yahashua sitting ON or AT the right of God. This simply does not exist in the manuscript.
Yahashua is always dwelling OUT OF and IN the right of God
IN = EN the right of power
IN = EN the right of the throne
IN = EN the right of the Father
Rom 8:34 Christ ἐν - - en " in the right of God, Who also maketh intercession for us.
Eph 1:20 Christ is ἐν - - en " in his own right ἐν - - en " in the heavenly place.
Heb 12:2 Christ is set ἐν - - en " in the right of the throne of God.
Heb 1:3 Christ. . . . . The express image of The Fathers confidence, . . . . Sat down - - ἐν - - en " in the right of the Majesty ἐν - - en " in the high.
Heb 8:1 Christ is set ἐν - - en " in the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.
Heb 10:12 Jesus is forever sat down ἐν - - en " in the right of God.
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, And is ἐν - - en " in the right of God.
NEVER EVEN ONCE - are the words ON or AT used to describe Yahashua sitting or dwelling anywhere concerning God and his throne
Mat 26:64 ye see the Son of man sitting { ἐκ / EX - OUT OF } the right of power,
OUT OF = ἐκ EX
They literally insert their Trinity by replacing IN and OUT - with AT and ON
Remember - Yahoshua says three things here about his identity.
i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT FOR FROM - MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -
John 8:42
i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT ALSO FROM / OF - MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -
εγω I AM - γαρ FOR - εκ OUT / FROM - του THE - θεου GOD - εξηλθον CAME OUT -
και AND - ηκω COME - ουδε NOT - γαρ FOR - απ FROM - εμαυτου MYSELF - εληλυθα I COME -
αλλ NEITHER - εκεινος MYSELF - με I - απεστειλεν SENT.
Meaning - Yahoshua was not a mere “ departing exiting FORM “ nor MORPH of his OWN pre - existence. - -
Nor even a departed FORM or MORPH of his own self " himself. " as a separate pre-existing 2 nd person.
But truly the Trinity is completely in contradiction - BECAUSE - Yahoshua defines the terms in His message - by saying that He does nothing of His own self - saying that I can do nothing whatsoever of my own doing. - I do not have any power of miracles, of my own " I do not have a will of my own - I CANNOT DO anything, whatsoever - OF MY OWN ... Saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works.
Clearly, here he was not a distinct separated part of God, nor of a trinity in a partnership as a second PERSON of a triune CO EQUAL = CO ETERNAL GODHEAD.
Even " His will was not " CO EQUAL " nor the same as " in the same WILL as God's will.
He has no power, no control, no miracles, no knowledge and there is no good, no honor, and no GOOD REPUTATION in Him. - as a distinct, separate individual CO EQUAL or CO ETERNAL SEPARATED DEITY OR PERSON.
Saying - why do you call me " good " ? -- " There is NO ONE good but God alone " - -
Every time He spoke of his own will, power, majesty and desire and purpose " We find that He denied the trinity doctrine- Yet at the same time, he and the scriptures declare that He was God Himself - He was from heaven, and He PRE EXISTED / ORIGINATED - in the bosom of the father and EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father to sit in the RIGHT of God until God's enemies are a footstool..
He came OUT of God's spirit and returns back to God's spirit to sit IN the throne of GOD..... - because this is his spirit – The Holy Spirit - the only mediator.
The Word Made Flesh that will return back to sit in the throne of the Father and of the Lamb.
God is not three separate individual CO EQUAL - CO ETERNAL PERSONS - the three manifestations / manifestations are one God = The Holy Spirit, a Father / Creator - manifesting Himself as the word spoken into existence as a SON out of God conceived / made flesh.
THE ONLY QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR TRINITARIANS - IS SIMPLY THIS.
If Yahashua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed
IF - The Bible says He is to sit / dwell - “ IN “ the right or “ AT “ the right hand of God - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes
or
If he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such and such a time, this means he was not always there. And after such and such a time passes - where will he again return regarding his original place ? I honestly just do not see how Trinitarians can answer this question and I have never received an answer from anyone who holds to the Trinity faith.
My question is simply this- - - is there are Trinitarian brother or sister who can answer this one question, ? ? ?
WHY IS YAHASHUA CHANGING / ALTERING and MODIFYING and ADJUSTING / MORPHING and LOWERING and DECREASING and REDUCING HIMSELF -
WHY IS YAHASHUA becoming empty / void and vacant of existing as EQUALLY God and SUDDENDLY SUDDENLY CHANGING HIMSELF TO BECOME A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY IS YAHASHUA SUDDENLY CHANGED AND ALTERED TO THE POINT THAT HE NO LONGER EXISTS TO BE EQUAL TO GOD.
BUT HIMSELF, HE HAS SUDDENLY BECAME EMPTY / changed altered BECOME VOID OF EQUALITY TO GOD
CHANGING INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM THAT WHICH HE PRE EXISTED = CHANGING INTO BECOMING A SERVANT
He is changed and lowered into - THE MORPH OF A SERVANT, RECEIVING IN THE LIKENESS OF MANKIND, HE BECAME.
BUT Trinitarians demand that Jesus always pre existed in heaven in exactly this very form. The Trinitarian Jesus was always existing as a SON OF GOD - ALWAYS IN OBEDIENCE ALWAYS FOLLOWING ORDERS - ALWAYS A SERVANT who TOOK ORDERS FROM THE FATHER.
this is who and what the Trinitarian Jesus - already was ?
IF - Yahashua came to earth and lowered himself - emptied himself - he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF - BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY - would he be lowering himself - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF TO BE CHANGED INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD – changed to becoming a servant and obedient to the father
If this is who and what he already was ?
In fact the Greek words IN and OUT of God are the only two words that describe Yahashua's relationship with the father - not even once are the terms AT or ON ever, ever used in the manuscripts.
Even the word " Godhead " is never even in the Greek manuscripts, everything was added, altered and inserted to insert the statements defining the Trinity doctrine of Rome..
the TRINITARIAN Translations does not express - Jesus as existing " previously " as only prophetic promise and as not yet existing as - the second person of the Trinity before his birth........
notice the Trinitarian passage
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:
if The Old Testament believers were worshiping the Trinity Godhead in a manner that was incorrect and false, how then did Jesus exist " previously " as only prophetic promise and not the second person of the Trinity Godhead ?
The Translation is claiming that - God had allowed people to incorrectly worship and disregard the true worship and teaching that - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in three persons in one GODHEAD / TRINITY
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent: - repent for incorrectly thinking that the Godhead / Trinity was as art and man's device.
How could someone mistakenly or falsely worship something that was never revealed to them or that they never heard of ?
The Trinitarian Translation presents a second person who already pre existed - who is not coming OUT of God, but who already exists in heaven with God and is being re - positioned, re - located and moving from one existing position to another, who is being PROMOTED to be seated literally beside { AT or ON } the throne or AT / ON the right hand of God.
The manuscript always says - sit OUT OF my right - and Sit IN my right
while the Translation says sit AT / ON my right hand - the manuscript never uses the words - AT / ON my right hand
The Translation attempts to invent a Trinitarian Jesus who already pre - exists in heaven, who is not exiting OUT of God to sit IN the right of God - but he, the Son already exists and is here being promoted and re - located, re - positioned, to sit " ON " beside the throne of the father.
Godhead Trinity = Three distinct Co - Equal, Co - Eternal and Co - Omnipresent eternally equal persons who in past times were ignored by believers concerning the correct worship of the GODHEAD TRINITY - but NOW - commandeth all men every where to repent:
Repent for falsely worshiping the GODHEAD TRINITY before the Son was even conceived ?
This is the Godhead / Trinity that is represented by the Italian / Canaanite Church Fathers and the Trinitarian Translation.
Why was the Father greater than the son
Yahashua explains exactly how and why - My Father is greater - BEACAUSE - i go to the Father.
because that I am going to the father - this is why........ as he came out of / eXited out of the conception of the Holy Spirit of God.
Yahashua was going back to sit IN the throne of God - going back to existing as the character and word of the Father from which he exited / came out of
This is all clear reading from the MANUSCRIPTS but the Trinitarian Translation of Rome contradicts every single answer that Yahashua had given - and many, many other answers.
When we read directly from the Original Greek Manuscripts
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith ........ I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting { ἐκ / EX - OUT OF } the right of power, .......................................................... ἐκ = ek / EX
The Greek word " EX " Means = A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; , from (among, forth out (from, of), (-out of ).
NEVER - NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE TIME - do we find Yahashua sitting ON or AT the right of God. This simply does not exist in the manuscript.
Yahashua is always dwelling OUT OF and IN the right of God
IN = EN the right of power
IN = EN the right of the throne
IN = EN the right of the Father
Rom 8:34 Christ ἐν - - en " in the right of God, Who also maketh intercession for us.
Eph 1:20 Christ is ἐν - - en " in his own right ἐν - - en " in the heavenly place.
Heb 12:2 Christ is set ἐν - - en " in the right of the throne of God.
Heb 1:3 Christ. . . . . The express image of The Fathers confidence, . . . . Sat down - - ἐν - - en " in the right of the Majesty ἐν - - en " in the high.
Heb 8:1 Christ is set ἐν - - en " in the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.
Heb 10:12 Jesus is forever sat down ἐν - - en " in the right of God.
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, And is ἐν - - en " in the right of God.
NEVER EVEN ONCE - are the words ON or AT used to describe Yahashua sitting or dwelling anywhere concerning God and his throne
Mat 26:64 ye see the Son of man sitting { ἐκ / EX - OUT OF } the right of power,
OUT OF = ἐκ EX
They literally insert their Trinity by replacing IN and OUT - with AT and ON
Remember - Yahoshua says three things here about his identity.
i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT FOR FROM - MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -
John 8:42
i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT ALSO FROM / OF - MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -
εγω I AM - γαρ FOR - εκ OUT / FROM - του THE - θεου GOD - εξηλθον CAME OUT -
και AND - ηκω COME - ουδε NOT - γαρ FOR - απ FROM - εμαυτου MYSELF - εληλυθα I COME -
αλλ NEITHER - εκεινος MYSELF - με I - απεστειλεν SENT.
Meaning - Yahoshua was not a mere “ departing exiting FORM “ nor MORPH of his OWN pre - existence. - -
Nor even a departed FORM or MORPH of his own self " himself. " as a separate pre-existing 2 nd person.
But truly the Trinity is completely in contradiction - BECAUSE - Yahoshua defines the terms in His message - by saying that He does nothing of His own self - saying that I can do nothing whatsoever of my own doing. - I do not have any power of miracles, of my own " I do not have a will of my own - I CANNOT DO anything, whatsoever - OF MY OWN ... Saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works.
Clearly, here he was not a distinct separated part of God, nor of a trinity in a partnership as a second PERSON of a triune CO EQUAL = CO ETERNAL GODHEAD.
Even " His will was not " CO EQUAL " nor the same as " in the same WILL as God's will.
He has no power, no control, no miracles, no knowledge and there is no good, no honor, and no GOOD REPUTATION in Him. - as a distinct, separate individual CO EQUAL or CO ETERNAL SEPARATED DEITY OR PERSON.
Saying - why do you call me " good " ? -- " There is NO ONE good but God alone " - -
Every time He spoke of his own will, power, majesty and desire and purpose " We find that He denied the trinity doctrine- Yet at the same time, he and the scriptures declare that He was God Himself - He was from heaven, and He PRE EXISTED / ORIGINATED - in the bosom of the father and EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father to sit in the RIGHT of God until God's enemies are a footstool..
He came OUT of God's spirit and returns back to God's spirit to sit IN the throne of GOD..... - because this is his spirit – The Holy Spirit - the only mediator.
The Word Made Flesh that will return back to sit in the throne of the Father and of the Lamb.
God is not three separate individual CO EQUAL - CO ETERNAL PERSONS - the three manifestations / manifestations are one God = The Holy Spirit, a Father / Creator - manifesting Himself as the word spoken into existence as a SON out of God conceived / made flesh.
THE ONLY QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR TRINITARIANS - IS SIMPLY THIS.
If Yahashua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed
IF - The Bible says He is to sit / dwell - “ IN “ the right or “ AT “ the right hand of God - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes
or
If he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such and such a time, this means he was not always there. And after such and such a time passes - where will he again return regarding his original place ? I honestly just do not see how Trinitarians can answer this question and I have never received an answer from anyone who holds to the Trinity faith.
My question is simply this- - - is there are Trinitarian brother or sister who can answer this one question, ? ? ?
WHY IS YAHASHUA CHANGING / ALTERING and MODIFYING and ADJUSTING / MORPHING and LOWERING and DECREASING and REDUCING HIMSELF -
WHY IS YAHASHUA becoming empty / void and vacant of existing as EQUALLY God and SUDDENDLY SUDDENLY CHANGING HIMSELF TO BECOME A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY IS YAHASHUA SUDDENLY CHANGED AND ALTERED TO THE POINT THAT HE NO LONGER EXISTS TO BE EQUAL TO GOD.
BUT HIMSELF, HE HAS SUDDENLY BECAME EMPTY / changed altered BECOME VOID OF EQUALITY TO GOD
CHANGING INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM THAT WHICH HE PRE EXISTED = CHANGING INTO BECOMING A SERVANT
He is changed and lowered into - THE MORPH OF A SERVANT, RECEIVING IN THE LIKENESS OF MANKIND, HE BECAME.
BUT Trinitarians demand that Jesus always pre existed in heaven in exactly this very form. The Trinitarian Jesus was always existing as a SON OF GOD - ALWAYS IN OBEDIENCE ALWAYS FOLLOWING ORDERS - ALWAYS A SERVANT who TOOK ORDERS FROM THE FATHER.
this is who and what the Trinitarian Jesus - already was ?
IF - Yahashua came to earth and lowered himself - emptied himself - he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF - BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY - would he be lowering himself - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF TO BE CHANGED INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD – changed to becoming a servant and obedient to the father
If this is who and what he already was ?
In fact the Greek words IN and OUT of God are the only two words that describe Yahashua's relationship with the father - not even once are the terms AT or ON ever, ever used in the manuscripts.
Even the word " Godhead " is never even in the Greek manuscripts, everything was added, altered and inserted to insert the statements defining the Trinity doctrine of Rome..
the TRINITARIAN Translations does not express - Jesus as existing " previously " as only prophetic promise and as not yet existing as - the second person of the Trinity before his birth........
notice the Trinitarian passage
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:
if The Old Testament believers were worshiping the Trinity Godhead in a manner that was incorrect and false, how then did Jesus exist " previously " as only prophetic promise and not the second person of the Trinity Godhead ?
The Translation is claiming that - God had allowed people to incorrectly worship and disregard the true worship and teaching that - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in three persons in one GODHEAD / TRINITY
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent: - repent for incorrectly thinking that the Godhead / Trinity was as art and man's device.
How could someone mistakenly or falsely worship something that was never revealed to them or that they never heard of ?
The Trinitarian Translation presents a second person who already pre existed - who is not coming OUT of God, but who already exists in heaven with God and is being re - positioned, re - located and moving from one existing position to another, who is being PROMOTED to be seated literally beside { AT or ON } the throne or AT / ON the right hand of God.
The manuscript always says - sit OUT OF my right - and Sit IN my right
while the Translation says sit AT / ON my right hand - the manuscript never uses the words - AT / ON my right hand
The Translation attempts to invent a Trinitarian Jesus who already pre - exists in heaven, who is not exiting OUT of God to sit IN the right of God - but he, the Son already exists and is here being promoted and re - located, re - positioned, to sit " ON " beside the throne of the father.
Godhead Trinity = Three distinct Co - Equal, Co - Eternal and Co - Omnipresent eternally equal persons who in past times were ignored by believers concerning the correct worship of the GODHEAD TRINITY - but NOW - commandeth all men every where to repent:
Repent for falsely worshiping the GODHEAD TRINITY before the Son was even conceived ?
This is the Godhead / Trinity that is represented by the Italian / Canaanite Church Fathers and the Trinitarian Translation.
MedicBravo
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No.
All three have existed before anything existed. Don't try to unpackage that b/c the human mind is weak and flawed.
All three have existed before anything existed. Don't try to unpackage that b/c the human mind is weak and flawed.
Three denotes the end of a mater in parables .Two represent the witness of God greater than the witness of man one Two the Elohim.
“In the beginning God (Elohim the witness of God, two ) created the heavens and the earth,”
