Dear Atheist

[Zendra]

Doesn't the existence of visible things that science has not been able to fully explain testify that there is a Supremely Intelligent Eternal Creative Power (God) behind the universe's existence?

Scientific knowledge isnt complete. Just because it cant be explain something now doesnt mean it wont be. Mans explanation for diseases used to be demons, science has shown it is actually viruses or mutations.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Scientific knowledge isnt complete. Just because it cant be explain something now doesnt mean it wont be.

You're avoiding my question. My question is this: Given the incompleteness of scientific knowledge, doesn't the fact that things in the universe currently exist that cannot or have not yet been explained indicate the existence of a Supreme Eternal Intelligent Being? How do you explain the existence of mysteries that man's best intelligence cannot yet unravel and yet deny Intelligent Design as the ultimate cause of those mysteries?

SLE

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Are atheists allowed or encouraged to respond to this?

 

[Zendra]

You're avoiding my question. My question is this: Given the incompleteness of scientific knowledge, doesn't the fact that things in the universe currently exist that cannot or have not yet been explained indicate the existence of a Supreme Eternal Intelligent Being? How do you explain the existence of mysteries that man's best intelligence cannot yet unravel and yet deny Intelligent Design as the ultimate cause of those mysteries?

No, as i said before just because we canot explain things doesnt indicate towards intelligent design. I remember seeing a picture of a location where there is a boulder jammed between two cliffs. It may be a mystery how that boulder got there but it doesnt automatically suggest somebody moved it there.

Are atheists allowed or encouraged to respond to this?

They should be, otherwise its a debate with only one side talking.

 

[Tusk Barnes]

I'm sure you understand that arguing from ignorance is not proof-positive of anything...ever. Blind faith rears its ugly head again here. Saying, "We cannot naturally explain...therefore, it must have something to do with God," is silly. It is inserting an unconfirmed idea into a not yet understood area...Completely unnecessary according to Occam's razor. Thor's necessity died when the actual reason for lightning was discovered. No one said, "well...Thor actually just designed electro-static properties so he's still the god of it. They gave him up.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Blind faith rears its ugly head again here. Saying, "We cannot naturally explain...therefore, it must have something to do with God," is silly. It is inserting an unconfirmed idea into a not yet understood area...Completely unnecessary according to Occam's razor

Its interesting that you use Occam's Razor since Occam's Razor is attributed to a 14th century English logician, theologian, and Franciscan friar Fr. William of Ockham(he believed in God). Wikipedia tells us that Occam's Razor is only a rule of thumb used in the development of theoretical models; it is not considered an irrefutable principle of scientific logic.

Regarding the silliness of blind faith, aren't you showing blind faith in holding on to the idea that there cannot be a God, given the as yet unexplained mysteries of the universe that I referred to in my post?

SLE

 

[kyval82]

Where is the evidence that this is the case? Did anyone do a scientific study to determine that this is true? Why do you just accept something as true without requiring evidence?

I did not say these were my words, I said that they were from a speaker on a christain radio program. You have NO and I stress NO evidence that GOD does not exist yet you whole heartedly say so, huh!!!! And yes I do think that the speaker had a great point. :secret:

 

[Zendra]

You have NO and I stress NO evidence that GOD does not exist yet you whole heartedly say so,

Have you heard of the flying spaghetti monster response?
Basically you can come up with many theories that can not be 'disproved' even though they lack evidence.

 

[Chad]

Zendra, get a grip. You come here for what reasons? You do see the motto on the top right correct? Or do you not care and was told by "science" to harass Christians for their beliefs? Do you do the same to Buddhists and Muslims too? I bet you don't. Because you know Jesus is real and you're trying so hard to defend your sins and life style, like most clueless atheists.

Read a book called "Case for Christ". He used to be an atheist, more than you probably. Now, he's a world known famous Christian author and a fine one mind you.

They should be, otherwise its a debate with only one side talking.

Well read the forum rules carefully and RESPECT them. This is not a debate forum to discuss whether or not GOD is real. He is real, regardless of your worldly 'wit' and opinions.

If you don't like it, tough. Eat spaghetti to ease your pain.

 

[Zendra]

You come here for what reasons?

This was the first christian forum i found and i didn't believe there were many, i was undecided in my beliefs so thought id put see how Christian belief stood up to scrutiny.

You do see the motto on the top right correct?

Yes and that was what made me unsure weather to join or not, however i hadn't come across any other Christian forums before and in the guidelines i saw If you are an unbeliever, it is likely you've been led here by GOD so you may learn about His love for you found in Jesus Christ alone. so i thought id give it a go.

r do you not care and was told by "science" to harass Christians for their beliefs?

No it has never been my intention to harass Christian belief.

Do you do the same to Buddhists and Muslims too? I bet you don't

No your right I don't, that is because i am unfamiliar with their beliefs, perhaps i should be having a look at other religions.

Because you know Jesus is real and you're trying so hard to defend your sins and life style, like most clueless atheists.

I never said I didn't believe Jesus was real and no I'm not trying to defend my sins or lifestyle, I'll freely admit things i do wrong.

Hope that clears things up

 

[Zendra]

i was undecided in my beliefs so thought id put see how Christian belief stood up to scrutiny.

Sorry that sounds a bit harsh, my thinking was that Christianity should fit well enough with what we know already so i was looking at responses to supposed problems.

 

[lonelee]

I'm an apostate to the Christian faith here...an atheist... and I just wanted to respectfully contribute a small amount.

This thread started out with a challenge for those who do not believe in the Christian god, Yahweh. It asks atheists to closely examine the seemingly perfection in the universe. Could it all just be coincidence? Big bang and the rest up to natural laws? However, what the original thread fails to give is objective reasoning for Yahweh. The universe might seem perfect, and I'll give the OP that. But that in no way is proof positive for Yahweh. Even if we could find solid scientific evidence for creation (and the evidence is vastly against such an idea), it still wouldn't be enough proof to point to Yahweh. There are so many other gods who are candidates, and have been long before Yahweh was even thought up. Yahweh wasn't even a creator god in his first form. He was a god of war. It's only after the merger of two Canaanite tribes that Yahweh became the creator god.

Blind faith accomplishes nothing. And if having faith without seeing is so commendable, then you must also admit that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, JWs, Mormons, Bahias, and all other faiths are noble in what they believe blindly.

 

[allforihs]

There are so many other gods who are candidates, and have been long before Yahweh was even thought up. Yahweh wasn't even a creator god in his first form. He was a god of war. It's only after the merger of two Canaanite tribes that Yahweh became the creator god.

I don't get any impression from the oldest books of the Bible that God was originally a god of war. Consider what is widely accepted as the oldest book, Job. There is no war or armies in this book. There are no competing gods. And, Satan is subjected to God's sovereignty.

An Atheist necessarily believes in the evolution of God, and so creates a hypothetical origin of God. That becomes the glasses in which he views the evidence.

What other gods are candidates for my worship and creation of the universe? Name one.

 

[lonelee]

I can name more than one. The first that comes to mind right off the hop is Zeus. The Canaainite god El is also another (even named in the bible). Don't forget Enlil and Brahma. And of course, there is the newest of the major monotheistic faiths, Islam, and their god Allah. These are the main creator gods that I can think of off the cuff.

And naturally, you won't get any books of the bible blatantly speaking of alternate ideas of god...books that did not agree with Judaism were not included in the Hebrew biblical canon. You also mention Satan, but even he is a relatively modern concept (only about 3,500 years old). Older religions don't even have an evil deity. It wasn't until the birth of monotheism that such a being was born.

I understand it may sound like rubbish to you. Like you said, atheists believe in a "hypothetical origin" and "evolution of God" and that has become "the glasses in which he views the evidence". This "hypothetical origin" you speak of is obtained through objective research and history. In your statement, however, you should also be reminded that viewing the "evidence" through the bible is really just another pair of "glasses". You've chosen to put your trust in the bible as the infallible and inerrant word of god, and I have simply not. That's really all it comes down to.

 

[allforihs]

I can name more than one. The first that comes to mind right off the hop is Zeus. The Canaainite god El is also another (even named in the bible). Don't forget Enlil and Brahma. And of course, there is the newest of the major monotheistic faiths, Islam, and their god Allah. These are the main creator gods that I can think of off the cuff.

Allah is Yahweh. Where are the followers of Zeus, Enlil, Brahma, and the Canaanite El? If there is any merit to these gods, where are their followers? I asked for candidates for my worship. Either they don't care to be worshiped or they are impotent. Either way, that makes them not candidates for my worship.

In your statement, however, you should also be reminded that viewing the "evidence" through the bible is really just another pair of "glasses". You've chosen to put your trust in the bible as the infallible and inerrant word of god, and I have simply not.

Yes, I have my own glasses. But, even without glasses, I wouldn't compare a created and now defunct Zeus to the eternal God.

 

[Zendra]

This thread started out with a challenge for those who do not believe in the Christian god, Yahweh. It asks atheists to closely examine the seemingly perfection in the universe. Could it all just be coincidence? Big bang and the rest up to natural laws? However, what the original thread fails to give is objective reasoning for Yahweh

I think their reasoning is that such complex things could not come about on their own.

Allah is Yahweh. Where are the followers of Zeus, Enlil, Brahma, and the Canaanite El? If there is any merit to these gods, where are their followers? I asked for candidates for my worship. Either they don't care to be worshiped or they are impotent. Either way, that makes them not candidates for my worship.

There will be followers, they just aren't as popularized as others. There will probably be a varying amount of merit as well, some may have more than Christianity or Islam but didn't become popular before evidence came out.

I wouldn't compare a created and now defunct Zeus to the eternal God.

You know know Zeus was created but why couldn't the 'eternal' God be?

 

[lonelee]

Deep down inside, he knows Yahweh is as much a created god as Zeus. He pretty much said it in his statement..."I wouldn't compare a created and now defunct Zeus to the eternal God."

The words "now defunct" are an interesting choice, as he acknowledges there was a time Zeus was considered as Yahweh is today...someday Yahweh will likely become as Zeus is now.

And I realize that their reasoning for Yahweh is in the complex workings of our universe today, but again, that does not bear the stamp of Yahweh. At best, it may bear the stamp of a creator, but who that creator is (if there were any), is not known.

 

[Chad]

Deep down inside, he knows Yahweh is as much a created god as Zeus. He pretty much said it in his statement..."I wouldn't compare a created and now defunct Zeus to the eternal God."

You're arrogant. That statement does not indicate that at all he thinks "Yahweh is much a created god as Zeus". You're just wishful thinking.

The words "now defunct" are an interesting choice, as he acknowledges there was a time Zeus was considered as Yahweh is today...someday Yahweh will likely become as Zeus is now.

And I realize that their reasoning for Yahweh is in the complex workings of our universe today, but again, that does not bear the stamp of Yahweh. At best, it may bear the stamp of a creator, but who that creator is (if there were any), is not known.

That's your opinion, due to lack of knowledge.

Your profile proves my point:

I HAD accepted Christ, but have now rejected such an
idea.

You're lost and have no idea about anything, just plain guessing by your own opinions.

Had you done proper, SINCERE investigating of Christianity, truth, archeological discovers, MIRACLES, etc you would understand like a wise man does who believes in the Living Jesus Christ. But, you choose the wide path that leads to destruction instead.

I challenge you to dispute any and every miracle Christians have encountered with GOD since humanity began. Go ahead, be my guest.

 

[Chad]

Evidence & Bible Prophecy - Talk Jesus | Christian Forums

Go ahead and try to dispute anything in this forum. I challenge you

 

[allforihs]

Deep down inside, he knows Yahweh is as much a created god as Zeus. He pretty much said it in his statement..."I wouldn't compare a created and now defunct Zeus to the eternal God."

You're missing the point. Zeus was born to Cronus and Rhea. He's not the Creator, he's a created being. Zeus is like Superman in the pantheon of a morally ambiguous Justice League. Nothing like Yahweh.

The words "now defunct" are an interesting choice, as he acknowledges there was a time Zeus was considered as Yahweh is today...someday Yahweh will likely become as Zeus is now.

Zeus was never considered as Yahweh. But, you are missing another point. Zeus is impotent. He's unable to win worshipers. An impotent god is not a god at all. A defunct god is not a god at all.

Although the nations wage war against Yahweh, Yahweh will never become like Zeus.

And I realize that their reasoning for Yahweh is in the complex workings of our universe today, but again, that does not bear the stamp of Yahweh. At best, it may bear the stamp of a creator, but who that creator is (if there were any), is not known.

How would you know the stamp of Yahweh if you saw it?