Discussion on Torture

[KingJ]

Hi all. I think a discussion on torture will shed a lot of much needed light on controversial scripture that many use to incriminate God.

I want to make the argument that a good person cannot torture. Only the evil torture. The moment someone is guilty of torture, they are guilty of being evil.

Let's first 1. properly define torture, then 2. consider the reality of it and then 3. look at what history teaches us.

1. Defining torture:

Torture can be slowly pulling a persons limbs apart or it can be a teacher with an annoying voice. There are degrees.

For the purposes of this discussion I want to keep the meaning to this definition from 'Merriam Webster':

The infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.

2. Reality of torture:

Torture is pure wickedness. If you don't think it is, you have not properly thought on it. It is like the discussion on venial verse mortal sins. Many say 'sin is sin' and has no degrees. Oh really? How about you think about pulling my limbs off (Matt 5:28 thoughts = sin) and I actually pull your limbs off (Matt 5:32 = actual adultery is grounds for divorce).

I can only think of one instance where torture can be justified. Namely, when used to save people's lives. Two examples come to mind:

A) We see this with the FBI and bomb threats. They will place a criminal in a white room and deprive them of sleep until they confess to the whereabouts of a bomb. I am sure we would all agree that this is fine and not morally wrong. The criminal is hard hearted and needs to be broken to save many innocent lives. I am sure we would all agree that this type of torture cannot go on for longer then a month or two. It becomes morally wrong at a certain point.

B) Plagues. We see God put ten plagues on the Egyptians. God puts many plagues on those living in the second half of the tribulation. Seven trumpets mentioned in Rev 8. Seven bowl judgements mentioned in Rev 16. It is important to note that plagues increase in severity. It points to God reluctantly 'trying' to deal with hard hearted people. We see in many verses that there is a re-occurring phrase 'they repented not'. This tells us with crystal clarity that God is placing these plagues on people as He wants them to repent. Repentance of their sins will save them from an eternal prison What to expect in hell. 1 Tim 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

3. History of torture:

I am glad that today we recognize that those guilty of torture are guilty of crimes against humanity. Many were on the fence with Putin for example, that is until he became guilty of crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

History teaches us that the most evil people to ever live were all guilty of torturing others. You can google the list of the fifteen most evil people to ever live and you will find this:

1. Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) - Sanctioned all forms of violence to Jews and tortured many in an attempt to stop their reproduction. 2. Joseph Stalin (1878-1953) Under his rule, more than 1.5 million German women were raped. 3. Vlad the Impaler (1431-1476/77) - He impaled the victim through the buttocks till the stake came out of the mouth 4. Pol Pot (1925-1998) - He liked to keep the skulls of people he had killed and he went as far as ordering babies to be torn limb by limb. 5. Heinrich Himmler (1900-1945) - head of the SS and the brain behind the Final Solution to the Jewish question, 6. Saddam Hussein (1937-2006) - He ordered chemical attacks, eye gouging, beatings and severe shocks on people. He also recorded several tortures and deaths to watch them later. Idi Amin (1952-2003) - He killed people by feeding them to crocodiles, claimed he was a cannibal, mutilated one of his wives and rearranged her limbs. He killed and tortured around half a million people between 1971 to 1979 as ruler. I will stop there.

History also teaches us that whether you are a good or bad person, all agree that a person guilty of torture 1. cannot be trusted, 2. deserves capital punishment, 3. is not served from free will, 4. has no loyal servants, 5. even family betrays them, 6 they suffer terrible deaths. Look for example at the history of the brazen bull Brazen bull - Wikipedia. The inventor, Perilaus, was the first to be thrown into it. The king that did that, was then also a victim in it. What a terrible device the brazen bull is. You are seated in a brass bull and then cooked alive over a few hours. I quote this example often in my discussions as it is one type of torture device that can be compared to insinuations many make on hell and punishment the wicked will receive.

My Conclusion:

Torture is pure wickedness. Only the most evil people are guilty of it. We need to all meditate on what we teach others about God. We incriminate God if we suggest He is capable of or guilty of torture. We lead absolutely nobody to Jesus!! We are the number one enemy of the cross. We fail at our one job of being God's ambassador. Prophets that knew God better then any of us had this to say of Him:

Psalm 136:1 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His love endures forever.
Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways and faithful in all he does.
Deut 32:4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[KingJ]

In this thread What to expect in hell, so many have chosen eternal torture, excruciating pain in fire.

That description is akin to a brazen bull.

Who today would say a person who does this to another for even an hour is a saint with whom they would not mind living next to?

Imagine your children running around your yard and they are befriended in your absence by your neighbor that does such to criminals. Will you be fine with that?

 

[KingJ]

Nobody wants to live next to someone that tortures, correct?

Therefore it is safe to conclude that nobody who tortures will be in heaven, correct?

Therefore it is safe to conclude that God of heaven, will not be guilty of torturing anyone, correct?

If you died and went to heaven. Then in heaven discovered that your god tortured his enemy. It means you landed up in hell and not heaven. The devil is fine with being wicked.

Job tells us that it is unthinkable that God do anything wicked or pervert justice Job 34:12.

 

[B-A-C]

We can debate it, we can argue about it. We can discuss why it's morally or logically wrong in our view and opinions....

... but, at the end of the day. The Bible says some people will tortured, in pain. So all of the discussion around it doesn't really matter.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

...game over, end of discussion, end of argument.

Matt 8:29; And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

The demons know it's going to happen to them as well.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment, eternal fire. There's really nothing to debate here. The Bible says what it says. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but there it is. Plain and simple.

Rev 19:20; And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

These aren't cherry picked verses, they aren't typo's, they aren't my opinion.... it's just what the Bible says. Nothing to debate here.

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

People who debate eternal torment, are simply ignoring what the Bible says.

Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C

You miss context in your posts when quoting scripture.

I will give you one example. Rev 14:9-10 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

The first part says 'God's fury, full strength into cup of his wrath, tormented with burning sulfur''. The second part says ''in the presence of the holy angels and of the lamb''.

Now, you must try and picture the actual event. God placing many in fire, in front of Jesus and a host of 'holy' angels. We will reign with Jesus, so we too may be present. Jesus. Good angels. Good people. The most 'righteous' of the 'righteous'. All watching what God does to the wicked.

This tells us a few things.

1. God is not hiding the punishment He is dishing out from anyone.
2. God is an open book with punishment and therefore open to our judgement of His actions.

This says a lot if you consider the fact that He has nothing to hide from the most righteous, loving, caring, friendly, merciful, good people and angels to ever live. Surely, surely, if He was going to do something wicked, every single onlooker would have something to say......

You create a false torturious narrative when you highlight only those words and passages that mention the words ''fire'', ''torment'', ''darkness'', ''wrath'', ''burning'', weeping and ''gnashing of teeth''. As explained in my OP here What to expect in hell.

Do you not think that as a mature Christian, one who should know the A-Z of scriptures that pertain to a topic, you need to consider that you just may be guilty of misrepresenting God to the lost by cherry picking only those that are terribly contentious?

A Christian has one job. Be an ambassador for Christ 2 Cor 5:20.

I strongly feel that we need to be so cautious to not post scripture recklessly, wield the word of God with no skill. You may think you are being a steward of the word, by posting scriptures on the topic. But any person can do that. A Christian should know God and be able to give context to contentious words, lines and passages.

 

[KingJ]

People who debate eternal torment, are simply ignoring what the Bible says.

Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You want to imply that all must be terrified of God because He is an evil being?

We must fear God because God is God. Not because God is evil. Your insinuation has every OT prophet raising their eyebrow at you.

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways and faithful in all he does.
Deut 32:4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Job 34:12 it is unthinkable that God do anything wicked or pervert justice.

 

[Curtis]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Notice scripture does not say, "the smoke of God's torment....."
The Lord God torments nobody, it is the smoke of their own torment that is tormenting themselfs.

1Jn_4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Everyone in the lake of fire will be tormented because they were never perfected in love which leaves "fear" which has "torment"

 

[B-A-C]

The Lord God torments nobody, it is the smoke of their own torment that is tormenting themselfs.

I actually agree with this. God doesn't choose to send anyone to hell. They make their own choice to go there.

Everyone in the lake of fire will be tormented because they were never perfected in love which leaves "fear" which has "torment"

Even so, they will still be tormented.

 

[lentz]

@B-A-C

You miss context in your posts when quoting scripture.

I will give you one example. Rev 14:9-10 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

The first part says 'God's fury, full strength into cup of his wrath, tormented with burning sulfur''. The second part says ''in the presence of the holy angels and of the lamb''.

Now, you must try and picture the actual event. God placing many in fire, in front of Jesus and a host of 'holy' angels. We will reign with Jesus, so we too may be present. Jesus. Good angels. Good people. The most 'righteous' of the 'righteous'. All watching what God does to the wicked.

This tells us a few things.

1. God is not hiding the punishment He is dishing out from anyone.
2. God is an open book with punishment and therefore open to our judgement of His actions.

This says a lot if you consider the fact that He has nothing to hide from the most righteous, loving, caring, friendly, merciful, good people and angels to ever live. Surely, surely, if He was going to do something wicked, every single onlooker would have something to say......

You create a false torturious narrative when you highlight only those words and passages that mention the words ''fire'', ''torment'', ''darkness'', ''wrath'', ''burning'', weeping and ''gnashing of teeth''. As explained in my OP here What to expect in hell.

Do you not think that as a mature Christian, one who should know the A-Z of scriptures that pertain to a topic, you need to consider that you just may be guilty of misrepresenting God to the lost by cherry picking only those that are terribly contentious?

A Christian has one job. Be an ambassador for Christ 2 Cor 5:20.

I strongly feel that we need to be so cautious to not post scripture recklessly, wield the word of God with no skill. You may think you are being a steward of the word, by posting scriptures on the topic. But any person can do that. A Christian should know God and be able to give context to contentious words, lines and passages.

Paul said he and Timothy were ambassadors for Christ in Corinthians. No where does scripture say you and i are. We witness by the lives we live. Not by sermons

 

[KingJ]

Paul said he and Timothy were ambassadors for Christ in Corinthians. No where does scripture say you and i are. We witness by the lives we live. Not by sermons

Lentz, I can see how you arrive at that if you read only verse 2 Cor 5:20 in isolation. But if you start verse 17, it is clear the ''us'' are those who repent of their sins and accept Jesus.

2 Cor 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Sure, at first they were the only ones reconciled with God. But after their preaching, those that convert are also reconciled. As vs 17 says, the old has gone, the new is here.

 

[KingJ]

Even so, they will still be tormented.

This issue is not that they will be in torment. It is all about the type and level of torment. Torment can be a teacher with an annoying verse or being placed in a brazen bull.

You teach and support the latter. You do need to explain to all how a good God can do such. Your statements / insinuations of ''God is God, He can do whatever He wants'' are correct in theory but not true in reality.

Rom 9:21 makes it crystal clear that God can do whatever He wants ''Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour'', BUT the rest of scripture makes it crystal clear on what God does in fact decide to do. That is be a good God, just and righteous in ''ALL'' His ways.

It is false teaching to cherry pick Rom 9 as Calvinists do. It is likewise also false teaching to cherry pick only those words and lines that speak on God's wrath. False teaching.

If I was going to say ''God torments the wicked'', I would immediately clarify that it is a ''good God'' that does such. So assume the absolute best about the type of ''torment''. Mother Theresa punishing the wicked over someone like Saddam Hussein for example.

If we teach that God tortures the wicked. There is no way to convince any that He is ''also'' a good God. You have to try understand this. You are doing more damage then good.

 

[lentz]

Lentz, I can see how you arrive at that if you read only verse 2 Cor 5:20 in isolation. But if you start verse 17, it is clear the ''us'' are those who repent of their sins and accept Jesus.

2 Cor 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Sure, at first they were the only ones reconciled with God. But after their preaching, those that convert are also reconciled. As vs 17 says, the old has gone, the new is here.

If you start at verse one of chapter one(i think) you will see he is definitely referring to him and Timothy

 

[KingJ]

If you start at verse one of chapter one(i think) you will see he is definitely referring to him and Timothy

I don't agree, but if you wish to have a discussion on our ambassadorial duties as Christians, please open a new thread. I think it would be a good discussion to have.

 

[lentz]

I don't agree, but if you wish to have a discussion on our ambassadorial duties as Christians, please open a new thread. I think it would be a good discussion to have.

I not that concerned over it