Do Christians go to Heaven?
- Thread starter B-A-C
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Rhema
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First, it's unclear who the "you" is to whom you are replying, but...
Anyone who occupies the New Earth would be considered "saved" no? After all, they did get resurrected into life eternal. But these are on Earth, not heaven. (And NO, I'm not JW. Not even remotely close.)
I think the question was what happens now when saved people die. I'm sure you think they go to heaven, but I think the thread was intended to see if anyone could post scripture that proves this.
To me, I think scripture is pretty clear that the dead are dead and stay dead until the Resurrection.
God bless,
Rhema
B-A-C
Loyal
I don't know the answer to that, but something to consider.
2Cor 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
A lot of doctrine is built by some, around these verses. When you are absent from the body... you are with Jesus.
Where is Jesus right now today? In Heaven. So the question becomes, when is someone absent from their body?
A lot of people believe the soul leaves the body, the body remains, but the soul/spirit goes immediately to heaven.
Eccl 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
However, there is also...
John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Which seems to imply that no one but Jesus has gone to heaven, at least not yet.
There is some debate over whether Elijah and Enoch went to heaven, but neither were dead if they did.
2Kin 2:11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
It's possible that Paul visited temporarily ( possibly not in body, and also definitely not dead yet )
2Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Finally, to answer the second part of that question... again I don't know for sure.
But assuming no one goes to heaven and gets resurrected until after the tribulation, where do they go then?
The Bible says we will be with Jesus forever, but it also says He will be in the New Jerusalem. ( not heaven ).
But it does mention people outside the city... on the new Earth, who don't appear to be saved.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
So then, who are these people outside the gates of the city ( New Jerusalem )?
B-A-C
Loyal
Does the spirit/soul get resurrected before the body? All these verses say we are raised "on the last day".
John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
2Tim 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
But again, does our entire being get resurrected? Or just our bodies? What would be the purpose of this?
1Cor 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
2Tim 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
But again, does our entire being get resurrected? Or just our bodies? What would be the purpose of this?
1Cor 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
B-A-C
Loyal
The idea of people laying in the ground.. "dead" until the resurrection is sometimes called soul sleep.
John 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
John 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
Jesus calls temporary death.. "sleep", at least here.
1Cor 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
This verse really means, and a number of you have already died ( sleep )
1Cor 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Verse 51 above really means, we won't all be dead yet, but we will all be changed.
Matt 9:24 He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.
Matt 9:25 But when the crowd had been sent out, He entered and took her by the hand, and the girl got up.
The people around the girl at least believed she was dead, but Jesus said she was asleep.
When Stephen was stoned to death...
Acts 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
This verse means David died, and was laid among his ancesters.
1Cor 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Cor 15:6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
1Cor 15:7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
Verse 6 above really means, still are still alive, but some have died.
1Cor 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
1Cor 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Cor 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
Verse 18 above means, those who have died knowing Jesus.
1Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Again, the dead Christians here are called "asleep".
1Thes 5:10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
This means alive or dead.
2Pet 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
This means all our ancestors are dead.
1Sam 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."
The thought here is... Samuel is saying.. "why did you wake me up from my slumber?"
Why wasn't Samuel in heaven? Did dead Lazarus go to heaven? Or did he just "sleep" in the ground?
B-A-C
Loyal
Jesus told the hief on the cross,... "you'll be with me in paradise", why didn't He say you'll be with me in heaven?
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it says Lazarus went to Abrahm's Bosom.. but not heaven,
Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it says Lazarus went to Abrahm's Bosom.. but not heaven,
Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Rhema
Active
I would think the question would be when is "right now" for the dead person?
The verse quoted gives no time frame.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(2 Corinthians 5:6 KJV)But are we absent from the Lord?
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Matthew 28:20 KJV)Not too interested in any theological song and dance routine right now. Suffice it to say that the dead stay dead (for the most part) but from their perspective, no "time" would pass between their experience of death and their experience of the Resurrection.
God bless,
Rhema
Rockerduck
Active
I like this map; however, what calendar is used? It was the Julian calendar in Jesus's day. Anyway, I still like it, so where did you get it?
Rhema
Active
Washed up on the shores of the internet and I kept the link.
I'm not a JW that is their belief - what do you think Christianity is about? What are you being saved from read your bible it tells you.Now your saying God is the God of the dead not the living.Christians remain dead in Christ in your words.It is not what Christianity teaches its your own personal version.
I would think it is one of the reasons we are given three different kinds of demonstrations as prophecy. The rising from what is called the dead representing our sleep in the lord. . . sufferings unto death but not dying never to return to life with a living hope beyond the grave of a new body that will never die .
Four days for Lazarus . Three days and nights for the Son of man Jesus , completing the three days and nights promised demonstration in Genesis 3 and Isiah 53 of the father bruising the heal crushing the head serpent. by whose wounds we are healed
Then the prophecy moved from the valley garden, the demonstration of two the father and Son. Moved to the skull hill the cross. The bloody demonstration to all the nations of the world And last but not least the demonstration of the tomb, the demonstration of faith (the unseen things) The father removing the grave clothes and rolled back the stone the finished work of two
Lazarus four days then the wake up call .Lazarus rise you sleepy head you have more work to do The disciples' removed the grave clothes and rolled back the stone
A picture or parable of new believer entering fellowship . The church gets the stinky assignment of removing' the grave clothes, bodies of death.
John 11:38-41Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.;Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?;Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Rhema
Active
So there's no New Heaven and New Earth?
(and you scold me about reading the Bible?)
How you arrived at that conclusion is truly beyond me.
No, they're just not here (and now) at all. They're alive then at the Resurrection. Christians really have trouble understanding time.
But of course you know ALL of what Christianity teaches.
So then, produce ONE scripture that teaches the dead are in heaven right NOW (on our timeline).
Just One.
You can do it, no? And if you can't, somebody just said to me:
Thanks,
Rhema
Butch5
Active
Thanks! I'm still super busy, but hopefully will have some time.