Does mankind really have free will?

[Victor Van Heerden]

How important is the notion of free will and what does it even mean if I cannot exercise it because of handicaps that I have been born with? For instance no one on earth asked to be born white in a prosperous developed country like USA, UK, Europe etc or black in a impoverished developing country like Africa or to be born clever, backward, rich, poor, strong, weak, male, female etc - well you get the drift. Kids have less free will than their parents and so on.

Therefore our free will is limited by our age, race, gender, mental capacity, financial ability, geographical placement, and historical location to do what we want with our free will. Our genes passed down from parents and our social environment also restricts what choices are available for us to make. As a girl if you are blond and beautiful you have more choices than of you were not - same for men as well. So we do not have as much free will as we would like to think.

Let’s consider a scripture ( one of many) from the Bible that completely negates the notion of free will. Maybe someone can explain on this forum why in this instant the concept of free will takes a massive hit.

Isaiah 29:10: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.” Did God intervene here in their free will?

What about evil things that happen on earth and there is no seemingly loving, caring and kind supernatural intervention because human free will of the rapist, murderer, killer is of more importance than intervention from above.
It does absolutely no good at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. Most women do not have the upper body strength needed to stop a would-be attacker, while some people don’t have the rational capacity needed to spot a con-artist. I could not be a world-class athlete even if I wanted to, for instance. My genes have prevented me from beating Usain Bolt in race. If a lion were chasing both of us I would be eaten before him. Is that fair?

Nope - we do not have as much free will as people think. And what is even worse is that it would seem that the free will of Hitler and Saddam types that are evil and infringe upon the free will of the helpless are allowed to get away with their dastardly deeds. Why does the free will of the evil trump the free will of the good and innocent? What is even stranger in the free will debate is that we have Biblical stories where God actually does intervene to stop someone's free-will choice or to even divinely influence their own will! What am i missing? Today we could really use Gods supernatural, unlimited power and help in times of need.

 

[KingJ]

How important is the notion of free will

We can be thankful that to God it is very important. He could be a tyrant.

and what does it even mean if I cannot exercise it because of handicaps that I have been born with? For instance no one on earth asked to be born white in a prosperous developed country like USA, UK, Europe etc or black in a impoverished developing country like Africa or to be born clever, backward, rich, poor, strong, weak, male, female etc - well you get the drift. Kids have less free will than their parents and so on.

All these are moot arguments. Free will is having the ability to give in to good or evil in the situation we are in.

Therefore our free will is limited by our age, race, gender, mental capacity, financial ability, geographical placement, and historical location to do what we want with our free will. Our genes passed down from parents and our social environment also restricts what choices are available for us to make. As a girl if you are blond and beautiful you have more choices than of you were not - same for men as well. So we do not have as much free will as we would like to think.

Only age and mental ability are relevant. We are accountable for sin because of our ability to choose sin / intelligence levels and age of understanding are necessary for this.

Kids go straight to heaven to be tested another day Matt 19:14. The mentally handicapped as well. God is impartial Acts 10:34 and just Deut 32:4. IE If He put the serpent with Adam and Eve He will ensure He does so with all Rev 20:3.

Let’s consider a scripture ( one of many) from the Bible that completely negates the notion of free will. Maybe someone can explain on this forum why in this instant the concept of free will takes a massive hit.

Isaiah 29:10: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.” Did God intervene here in their free will?

God did not intervene. You have to apply more thought to the context of such passages. Every example of God ''hardening'' peoples hearts is after hard evidence of their rebellion to God. Just read the full chapter.

The context to God hardening is ''He stops trying to reach them''. Jesus is knocking on the door to every persons heart. Those who have constantly slammed the door in His face reach a time where Jesus / God stop knocking. This is what God refers to as now ''hardening''. IE He is no longer trying to soften. To come in. This happens mostly just before they are destroyed.

What about evil things that happen on earth and there is no seemingly loving, caring and kind supernatural intervention because human free will of the rapist, murderer, killer is of more importance than intervention from above.

God not intervening for those who don't want Him to intervene is evidence of free will. I am sure He is 'dying' to intervene.

God does intervene for His people. Those who have from free will untied His hands and shown they want Him to intervene in their lives. IE They let Jesus in. They did not consistently slam the door in His face.

God does not hear the prayers of sinners unless it is the prayer of repentance. John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.

It does absolutely no good at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. Most women do not have the upper body strength needed to stop a would-be attacker, while some people don’t have the rational capacity needed to spot a con-artist. I could not be a world-class athlete even if I wanted to, for instance. My genes have prevented me from beating Usain Bolt in race. If a lion were chasing both of us I would be eaten before him. Is that fair?

All moot arguments.

Nope - we do not have as much free will as people think.

I would think most think we have none to little. The truth is that we have perfect free will. God could not do a better job of giving us free will.

We have an amazing mind that can give in to degrees of good and evil. We have time, space and opportunity to exercise both good and evil.

And what is even worse is that it would seem that the free will of Hitler and Saddam types that are evil and infringe upon the free will of the helpless are allowed to get away with their dastardly deeds. Why does the free will of the evil trump the free will of the good and innocent?

I wouldn't say they ''get away'' Rom 2:6.

What is even stranger in the free will debate is that we have Biblical stories where God actually does intervene to stop someone's free-will choice or to even divinely influence their own will! What am i missing? Today we could really use Gods supernatural, unlimited power and help in times of need.

God intervenes when the balance of good and evil sways heavily toward evil. He should be intervening soon. The whole world is moving rapidly toward a state similar to Sodom Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous.

I am sure God is having thoughts similar to those He had just before the flood.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

We can be thankful that to God it is very important. He could be a tyrant.

Or a caring God that actually intervenes when evil is around in His creation.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

If He put the serpent with Adam and Eve He will ensure He does so with all Rev 20:3.

Would you put innocents who have no experience whatsoever especially of good and evil, have just popped into existence like new born babies in the presence of the most evil, deceptive and manipulative person in the entire universe. I certainly hope not. Why did God do it?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

God did not intervene.

Yet in some cases he does intervene when evil is around. For instance: Just ask the college student Ted Bundy ( the serial killer) tried to kill but something threw him out of the room. He later asked a RC priest to explain what happened while in prison. And the RC priest happened to be the same priest the girl asked to meet with when it happened. She had a rosary in her hand while she slept. Ted Bundy told the priest something physically threw him out of the room and knocked the knife from his hand. And he just so happened to ask the same priest who spoke to the girl the night of the event. Ted is in heaven now, with our Lord, he repented and became born again before a fellow inmate killed him with A knife. Of course it would be perfectly logical to enquire why God did not help scores of his other sadly dead victims he murdered.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

I wouldn't say they ''get away'

OH they do - down here that is. Good only triumphs over evil in the movies and fantasy/fiction. In the real world crime pays. Just ask The ANC cretins in South Africa. So yep they do get away with it. Look at the Kennedy family in the USA and Donald Trump and millions of others.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

He should be intervening soon

Nope - i have been waiting for a long time for Jesus to come back and sort out the world. He promised to come back in His generation 2 000 years ago, then when he did not, it was supposed to be in the generation after 1948. Well still waiting.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

All moot arguments

In God's mind why does free will of the evil people trump the free will of the good and innocent? Is free will more important to God than morality?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

OH they do - down here that is. Good only triumphs over evil in the movies and fantasy/fiction. In the real world crime pays. Just ask The ANC cretins in South Africa. So yep they do get away with it. Look at the Kennedy family in the USA and Donald Trump and millions of others.

Have you recently bumped your noggin, because you ain't thinken right??!!

 

[KingJ]

Would you put innocents who have no experience whatsoever especially of good and evil, have just popped into existence like new born babies in the presence of the most evil, deceptive and manipulative person in the entire universe. I certainly hope not. Why did God do it?

Where has He done this?

 

[KingJ]

Yet in some cases he does intervene when evil is around. For instance: Just ask the college student Ted Bundy ( the serial killer) tried to kill but something threw him out of the room. He later asked a RC priest to explain what happened while in prison. And the RC priest happened to be the same priest the girl asked to meet with when it happened. She had a rosary in her hand while she slept. Ted Bundy told the priest something physically threw him out of the room and knocked the knife from his hand. And he just so happened to ask the same priest who spoke to the girl the night of the event. Ted is in heaven now, with our Lord, he repented and became born again before a fellow inmate killed him with A knife. Of course it would be perfectly logical to enquire why God did not help scores of his other sadly dead victims he murdered.

Pharaoh saw plague after plague from God and did not repent. I hope Ted did repent truthfully and is in heaven. What is your problem with this? We should all want to see someone turn from the error of their ways.

 

[KingJ]

OH they do - down here that is. Good only triumphs over evil in the movies and fantasy/fiction. In the real world crime pays. Just ask The ANC cretins in South Africa. So yep they do get away with it. Look at the Kennedy family in the USA and Donald Trump and millions of others.

Rom 2:6.

 

[KingJ]

In God's mind why does free will of the evil people trump the free will of the good and innocent?

You are speaking to freedom. Not free will to sin or not sin.

Is free will more important to God than morality?

Is no free will moral?

 

[KingJ]

Nope - i have been waiting for a long time for Jesus to come back and sort out the world. He promised to come back in His generation 2 000 years ago, then when he did not, it was supposed to be in the generation after 1948. Well still waiting.

There is a very simple acid test. It is not hard to understand God and His timing on change.

Just think of Sodom. The entire city was corrupted by grievous sin Gen 18:20. So He rained fire and brimstone on it. The balance of good and evil swayed heavily in favor of the wicked. When this is the environment, free will is hampered. It is no environment for children to grow up in and many good are tested beyond their means Matt 24:22. We have to understand the truth and necessity to a balance of good and evil. It is the environment needed for free will on sin.

Now today the whole world is becoming a global village. There is no Sodom, or Nineveh. Instead it is as in the days of Noah. Where society at large is corrupt.

If you want to know when Jesus is coming. Or when God's wrath is coming if you are a pre or post trib rapture believer. Just look at how much good is being called evil and evil being called good around you. One should also see an increase in those mortal type sins mentioned in the OT for which the punishment ordained by God was death. Murders, adultery, rape, etc etc.

Just think about adultery and divorce. It is the norm today to hear of someone on their second or third marriage.

 

[Sue D.]

The book of Revelation says that Jesus Christ Will come back and rule this world for 1,000 yrs. There will be good, righteous, judgment.

But -- the rapture of the Church will take place at any time. And That is what people need to be ready for -- born-again believers --the Church -- will be taken up and out of this world.

Scripture tells us that No one knows when Christ will return. No one except God the Father. I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. No one knows -- not even 'us' when He will return.

BTW -- free will means that we have a choice to accept or reject salvation. And we are not puppets, so we also have free will in our daily actions. Decision-making ability.

A lot of things besides divorce and adultery would be included. Such as homosexuality supposedly being 'okay' and same-sex marriage being 'okay'. And the high rate of abortions. Etc.
People choosing to live together rather than getting married is definitely on the rise.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Pharaoh saw plague after plague from God and did not repent. I hope Ted did repent truthfully and is in heaven. What is your problem with this? We should all want to see someone turn from the error of their ways.

God hardened Pharaoh,s heart. Interfered with his free will. Ex 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

how much good is being called evil and evil being called good

You have just described where i live in South Africa. Jesus come quickly. PLEASE.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

he rapture of the Church will take place at any time

Been waiting since 1969 which is a very long time after our Lord ascended to heaven. He said he would return in His generation but did not and that is why people were mocking when is He coming back at that time and even now two millennia later! Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 9:1, Matthew 24:33-34

The pseudonymous author of 2 Peter - writing decades after the crucifixion, was acutely aware of the problem of Jesus not fulfilling prophecy and returning in His generation like He said He would, so he helpfully offered an explanation:

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”… But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:3-4, 8-9

Notice he meant in his time when he referenced the last days. He did not mean 2000 years into the future. How could he have? No one goes around currently talking about what will happen in the year 4019AD.

 

[Quantrill]

How important is the notion of free will and what does it even mean if I cannot exercise it because of handicaps that I have been born with? For instance no one on earth asked to be born white in a prosperous developed country like USA, UK, Europe etc or black in a impoverished developing country like Africa or to be born clever, backward, rich, poor, strong, weak, male, female etc - well you get the drift. Kids have less free will than their parents and so on.

Therefore our free will is limited by our age, race, gender, mental capacity, financial ability, geographical placement, and historical location to do what we want with our free will. Our genes passed down from parents and our social environment also restricts what choices are available for us to make. As a girl if you are blond and beautiful you have more choices than of you were not - same for men as well. So we do not have as much free will as we would like to think.

Let’s consider a scripture ( one of many) from the Bible that completely negates the notion of free will. Maybe someone can explain on this forum why in this instant the concept of free will takes a massive hit.

Isaiah 29:10: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.” Did God intervene here in their free will?

What about evil things that happen on earth and there is no seemingly loving, caring and kind supernatural intervention because human free will of the rapist, murderer, killer is of more importance than intervention from above.
It does absolutely no good at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. Most women do not have the upper body strength needed to stop a would-be attacker, while some people don’t have the rational capacity needed to spot a con-artist. I could not be a world-class athlete even if I wanted to, for instance. My genes have prevented me from beating Usain Bolt in race. If a lion were chasing both of us I would be eaten before him. Is that fair?

Nope - we do not have as much free will as people think. And what is even worse is that it would seem that the free will of Hitler and Saddam types that are evil and infringe upon the free will of the helpless are allowed to get away with their dastardly deeds. Why does the free will of the evil trump the free will of the good and innocent? What is even stranger in the free will debate is that we have Biblical stories where God actually does intervene to stop someone's free-will choice or to even divinely influence their own will! What am i missing? Today we could really use Gods supernatural, unlimited power and help in times of need.

You are correct in saying God did not ask you who, what, when, or where, you would be born. In fact, God did not even ask you if you wanted to be born. I believe all could agree that we had no say in the matter. And, we had no say in the matter that we were born sinners. God did not ask my opinion of how I wanted to be born.

Plus, as you say, your 'free will' didn't help you outrun that lion. But Usain's did, as he could outrun you. I have always said that man has a will, but he does not have free will. Only God has free will. Our will is always affected by our circumstances that many and most times, we have no control over. We have to choose a certain way, which if we had our way or our will, we would never have to make that choice. God, on the other hand has free will. Nothing comes to Him that is not already known to Him. Nothing surprises Him. His will is free from any outside influence. His will is free. And His will is done.

Quantrill

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Where has He done this?

In the garden of Eden with newly created physically as adults Adam and Eve but mentally innocent as new born babies. Why are you ducking the issue?