Hi. First Post.

[ken.rubin]

I am currently agnostic.
I think that reality is essentially unknowable.
How can you be sure that there is a god if any of your perceptions could be deceptive?

I look up at the night sky and wonder how all this came about.
It doesn't lead me to believe but it does leave me confused.
By any logic, existence itself is essentially impossible.
But I also think humans are just not sufficiently equipped to understand the big questions.
I am OK with not knowing why we are here. And I can accept that I'll never know.
Is that the difference between a theist and an agnostic? I.e. the feeling that we need to know or that we can know?

By the way, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I classify myself as Buddhist.
In discussions, I may ask difficult questions, but I promise to be respectful and open.

Thanks for reading and take care.

 

[spirit1st]

Listen ? God reveals He real to everyone on earth ! Now the truth is ? some do not want to accept this truth ! Because they want to live like they think they want to live ! When in fact , none of us live 100% for our selves ! We going to serve one or the other in life ! Some try to serve both ?

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

There is no doubt some being far beyond our understanding has created all things ! It just too perfectly made to be any other way !
listen even our most wisest mind all put together cannot full understand it all or even much !

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Mankinds understanding cannot reveal much truth ! You see satan putting dumb thoughts in all mankinds minds to confuse man !
But God wants us to know the Truth and have knowledges and the correct understanding !

Once we give ourselves to the LORD JESUS CHRIST our Creator , He gives us the spirit of truth so we can know the truth if we want?

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[ken.rubin]

Hi Spirit, Thanks for the reply. However it doesn't really address my questions.
If every sensory input can be misleading, how can you believe anything that you read absolutely?

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Hi Spirit, Thanks for the reply. However it doesn't really address my questions.
If every sensory input can be misleading, how can you believe anything that you read absolutely?

Canst thou by searching find out God?
Job 11:17

Greetings @ken.rubin

I believe in God because I know for certainty that He lives within me and has changed my life
That is an absolute certainty

Call out to God, this God you are uncertain of and ask Him to reveal His truth to you.
He will
Because He is seeking you and wants you to accept His free gift of Salvation

Ye shall seek Me and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart
Jeremiah 29:11

...him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out
John 6:37

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Welcome, Ken. You might check out the book God Forsaken by Dinesh D'Souza. D'Souza is a Christian educator and author who debates atheists and agnostics using science. The book might answer some of your questions.

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

 

[ken.rubin]

"I believe in God because I know for certainty that He lives within me and has changed my life"
- You know this because you've compiled a collection of perceptions--all of which corroborate that God exists. I still say, all perception is potentially deceptive. How do you know your perceptions are all accurate?

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

Ken ..it's the heart that leadss one to Christ not the head ..somtimes the simple truth escapes the most educated as they try to wrap thier heads around a love that dosent meet textbook standerds ...Gods word is without fault and I've proofed in my life more than once . How ever I've never met and educated man that understood faith of the heart ...You must renounce you're own understanding and lean on the word of God to do what He promises it will to ....lead you to an under standing of wisdom in The Lord ..my understanding is false but my Heart towards God will lead me right every time ..just as it would for you .For whomsoever shall believe on the Lord shall be saved ...that includes you .... im curious you keep speaking of you're own great knowalge ...tell me what you know of Christ the only risen Savior...Rev

 

[ken.rubin]

"im curious you keep speaking of you're own great knowalge"
- Was this directed at me? I have claimed no great knowledge. My whole point is I don't trust any knowledge. So how can you be certain that you are "right". I do not believe in "correct" or "incorrect", "right" or "wrong", "good" or "evil".

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

First if I May without offending I would offer this ..if you question me to gain a knowalage Of Christ with an open heart and sincere nature than by all mens seek and you will find ...! But I sense a bit of neutrality that you fight to defend ...if its in the sake of confusion I know the author of confusion and you are defeated before we start God loves you ken ,He sent his Son Jesus Christ to prove it ....the word says that if the devil knew what he was doing that day he never would have crucified Christ be cause he release the Holy Spirit for our wisdom and comfort in this world .only in Christ do you find peace and a true God that gave for you ..! He dosent ask in turn for any thing .but we give our lives to him in love of His gift ...He then gives abundantly to us and dosent ask us to give everything to the church ...He doesnt promise the moon and not delver as other Gods do ..!you were brought here for the reasons of God ......He has tugged on you're heart before ....choose this day whom shall serve ..it's the best advice I can offer...!!Rev

 

[ken.rubin]

Thanks for the advice. So how can I begin this process while still in doubt? I am who I am. For me to read a book with words on it, (regardless of the author) they would only be words. That means little to me. And I have read the bible, both new and old testament. I found many passages that I disagree with, and some that were interesting from a pedantic point of view, but nothing which made me believe anything new.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

I have nothing that makes me wise accept that which is Christ in me ..to answer you're question you begin on you're knees before an almighty God .ask and you shall receive , seek and you shall find ,knock and it shall be open to you ...! Those are Gods promise to us He hides no good thing from us ...ask God to show you in you're heart not in a Book ( that part comes later ) this is about a heart condition .With that being said .humble yourself in the presence of the Lord of Heaven and earth and see what happens ...then you might understand Christain faith better ...... Go to the author and finisher of our Faith and seek the wisdom you look for ..ask Jesus to become The Lord of you're heart and life .He is faithful to answer you ........Rev. Ps I dare ya to that He may prove Himself God .!!

 

[ken.rubin]

I appreciate your advice, but I cannot follow it. I simply cannot accept God first. I must first have some reason to believe or I will simply be fooling myself which can't work.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

Brother you got nothing to lose and all to gain . You're already fooling you're self but not God .!!!only a fool rebukes and scoffs at wisdom...you don't believe in correct or incorrect.you have placed you're wisdom above Gods and have set you're path but know this ...every knee shall bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord and you my friend are not exempt from that .I pray The Lord reveal himself in full fashion this night that you may know He is God ,may He speak to you In you're dreams so you may confess salvation with you're mouth while you can .......Lord be with you in you're search ...Rev

 

[ken.rubin]

I pray The Lord reveal himself in full fashion this night that you may know He is God
- Thanks. I await.

 

[Chad]

Hi Ken,

Did you read any of the links I gave you in this thread?
http://www.talkjesus.com/new-members/45480-new-here.html

I gave you a huge load of helpful resources to help you understand who GOD is, proof of His existence, etc.

Another thing to note: miracles

Christians encounter miracles but you won't hear about them on your typical TV news channel or in your local newspaper.

You'll hear about the when your among them in a biblical based church, or out in the mission fields for example.

 

[ken.rubin]

Hi Chad,

Yes I did check them out. Thanks for the links.

I particularly like your position on absolute truths. I have to admit it is very clever. But (to nit-pick) it is a little bit of a straw-man. For instance, I am not sure if a more accountable statement is: "Absolute truth exists for conceptual areas of thought such as logic and math, but not in any effective way in the 'real' world". This is a much harder point to assail, however, I'm sure my phrasing has holes in it as well. But I do really like how your argument is absolutely absolute. This appeals to me as a mathematician.

Unfortunately, I found the remaining arguments to be spurious or circular.

For instance, from a friendly perspective outside of Christianity, any "evidence" in the bible should not be admissible. That makes sense doesn't it? You should not use the thing you're trying to prove, to prove the thing itself (other than by induction--which is, you must admit, a special case).

I'd be happy to drill down (in a friendly way) on any particular point (proceeding from the well founded position that the bible can't prove the validity of the bible and or the Christian God). At the very least, we might help to tighten up some of your arguments.

However, I think all these points jump the gun for me. I'm not denying Christianity per se just yet, but simply a human's ability to know anything with absolute certainty. Baby steps, after all.

One question for you on the topic of absolute truths: let's say I concede the point that absolute truths exist in general. Do you think this is in any way related to the actually knowing and or know-ability about said absolute truth(s)?

Take care,
Ken

 

[spirit1st]

The Fact starts off with us wanting Truth or rejecting it by faith! God put the faith in us so we could accept truth !
Many just do not want truth !

2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

It pretty basic!

Trying to reveal things will not do it ! arguing truth will not do it 1 Even showing it clearly will not do it !

We Must want it !

Only thur HIS gospel , by accepting it will our Eyes be opened !

This is HIS gospel and the Only way we are going to get our Eyes opens ! And onlyy then by accepting it as Truth !

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Heb_4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

I know when I was Born -Again , I was looking for truth . a meaning to life! I saw life vain and knew there had to be a great puropse for mankind ? The day of My salvation , When My relationship started with My creator ! I was so happy , i wanted to tell the World what they were missing out on and tried ! still do !

 

[ken.rubin]

Thank you so much Spirit, I think you've hit the nail on the head!

I am not looking for some sort of absolute truth. I see that now.
In fact, I couldn't care less about a purpose to life. I have never needed that.
From my point of view life just is. That it is a mystery, how the universe started, how it will end...these are all pointless speculations.
They don't affect our lives today in any way.

Thank you so much. You've helped me a great deal.

Take care.

 

[stephen]

Hello Ken.

Welcome to 'talkjesus'

By any logic, existence itself is essentially impossible.
But I also think humans are just not sufficiently equipped to understand the big questions.
I am OK with not knowing why we are here. And I can accept that I'll never know.
Is that the difference between a theist and an agnostic? I.e. the feeling that we need to know or that we can know?

By the way, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I classify myself as Buddhist.

By any logic, existence itself is essentially impossible.

Our existence is a miricle for sure. The most infinate minds on the planet would agree with you.

But I also think humans are just not sufficiently equipped to understand the big questions.

Even NASA would agree with you. In the human/natural sense of understanding life.

I am OK with not knowing why we are here. And I can accept that I'll never know.

Your situation is common/worldwide....but incorrect.

Is that the difference between a theist and an agnostic? I.e. the feeling that we need to know or that we can know?

Yes we/you can know.

By the way, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I classify myself as Buddhist

I am not offended Ken...I welcome you here. But I hope you also are not offended when I say "religeon" (whatever)....offers no hope beyond the grave

 

[ken.rubin]

Stephen,

Thanks for you reply.

"But I hope you also are not offended when I say "religeon" (whatever)....offers no hope beyond the grave"
- Not at all. I don't consider Buddhism (really) to be a religion because there is no worship of God or Gods--at least not in Soto Zen, which is the particular branch I practice. It is more of a philosophy to me. And the activity is limited to nothing more or less than meditation.
- In any case, I have no hope, need or desire for anything "beyond the grave".

Perhaps it just comes down to personal experience. Whether I seek it or not. I have never perceived any evidence what-so-ever concerning any form of supernatural phenomena.

I now believe this is the fundamental difference between a theist and an agnostic. You have had, or do have, some perceptions which you choose to interpret as non-delusional (who am I to disagree with you?).

At this point, I consider the matter closed and wish you all well.

Take care. I have no more questions.