Holy Spirit and the Trinity

[InnocentOdion]

Dear All,

I am a Christian. I hold Jesus as the Messiah and Lord.

However, I am beginning do doubt the existence of the Holy Spirit. I currently don't see the Holy Spirit, currently, as a distinct person from God - rather God's actions and his love.

Because of this, I'm doubting the Trinity.

Sometimes I doubt the divinity of Christ as full God, full man. I see him as more than man, always- but I don't always see him as God.
​

I don't know why though. I just feel this way now. I don't go to a church because I'm not married, but I'm having a kid, and those at the churches are way too judgemental. If I had the money to get married, I would.

I'm starting to think like this:

God, the Father and Creator
|
The Holy Spirit, God's Actions, Comfort and Love
|
|
Jesus
|
|
|
+
|
|
Mankind


I see Jesus as forgiving sins, by God's permission and able to do miracles by God's will. I see Jesus as superior to mankind, by God the Father superior to Jesus.

Why am I thinking like this?
Am I still a Christian?

Can anyone help?

 

[jiggyfly]

InnocentOdion have you been born-again? There are truths to your questions but you must be born of the Spirit to understand them.

 

[Chad]

Read this.
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=85

Your words are completing hypocritical too.

"
I am a Christian. I hold Jesus as the Messiah and Lord
"

"Sometimes I doubt the divinity of Christ as full God, full man. I see him as more than man, always- but I don't always see him as God"

If you do not believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as 3 persons of One GOD - you are not a Christian, nor saved. You cannot be saved while denying or doubting Truth.

Read about the miracles of Jesus
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=6438

 

[Word of Life]

I don't go to a church because I'm not married, but I'm having a kid, and those at the churches are way too judgemental. If I had the money to get married, I would.

Firstly what those people are saying about you in the church are wrong and they should know better.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

When you are born in spirit you do not judge, you help and guide people out of any wrong-doings that person may have done. That person needs to repent and build that relationship up with God again and start mediating on Gods Word and start acting on what's been written.

Joh 8:7 But when they went on with their questions, he got up and said to them, Let him among you who is without sin be the first to send a stone at her.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

None of us are perfect, I know and we all fall short sometimes, including me, but I am learning, God is changing me and guiding me and showing me all my weak areas.

Just keep praying to God to guide you, help you and direct you. He will answer.

 

[Word of Life]

If you are not saved, hold this scripture to your heart:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[InnocentOdion]

...

I came to know Christ. I wasn't always a Christian. I was once MAJORLY against Christianity and I laughed at the idea of God. Then I found God after personal struggles - coming into contact with false religions. From my own experience, I say this: beware of other religions, those untrue, because they look innocent and have a silver tongue. I nearly ended up in Islam.

I still hold Jesus as the Lord, and still believe he rose from the dead, by God's will.

Unfortunatley, people do judge me based on what I've stated.
However, don't call me hypocritical. I've not said anything hypocritical. I hold Jesus as Lord at the moment, not as God. There is a difference. I see him as the Messiah, the saver and redeemer of man, the son of God - but this doesn't mean he has to be God. The Jews are waiting for a Messiah, where does it say in the OT that the Messiah has to be God?

I've read through the Bible, and I've heard all of the 'Jesus has got to be God because he says 'The Father and I are one'.' etc, etc-- but Jesus isn't my main problem. I can understand Jesus being God, but I'm currently unsure.

It's the Holy Spirit. I'm confused about it. What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, and why would there be a Holy Spirit if the Father or the Son could do it?

 

[Word of Life]

When you are born again, God gives you the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will be your teacher in all things and will put you in mind of everything I have said to you.

It was through Jesus that we could receive this gift from God.

Joh 14:16 And I will make prayer to the Father and he will give you another Helper to be with you for ever,

Joh 15:26 When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father even the Spirit of true knowledge who comes from the Father--he will give witness about me;

If Jesus was not crucified, then that gift would not be available to us.

Joh 16:7 But what I am saying is true: my going is for your good: for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

 

[InnocentOdion]

Baptism?

I haven't been baptised. What do you class as 'being born again'? I came to accept Christ, and to live by his commandments, but I still don't know what the trinity is. It's getting to me now.

 

[Chad]

I came to know Christ. I wasn't always a Christian. I was once MAJORLY against Christianity and I laughed at the idea of God. Then I found God after personal struggles - coming into contact with false religions. From my own experience, I say this: beware of other religions, those untrue, because they look innocent and have a silver tongue. I nearly ended up in Islam.

I still hold Jesus as the Lord, and still believe he rose from the dead, by God's will.

Unfortunatley, people do judge me based on what I've stated.
However, don't call me hypocritical. I've not said anything hypocritical. I hold Jesus as Lord at the moment, not as God. There is a difference. I see him as the Messiah, the saver and redeemer of man, the son of God - but this doesn't mean he has to be God. The Jews are waiting for a Messiah, where does it say in the OT that the Messiah has to be God?

I've read through the Bible, and I've heard all of the 'Jesus has got to be God because he says 'The Father and I are one'.' etc, etc-- but Jesus isn't my main problem. I can understand Jesus being God, but I'm currently unsure.

It's the Holy Spirit. I'm confused about it. What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, and why would there be a Holy Spirit if the Father or the Son could do it?

How is it not hypocritical calling Jesus Messiah but denying Him as GOD? Do you know the meaning of "Messiah"?

Here you go...

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Messiah
(Heb. mashiah), in all the thirty-nine instances of its occurring in the Old Testament, is rendered by the LXX. "Christos." It means anointed. Thus priests (Ex. 28:41; 40:15; Num. 3:3), prophets (1 Kings 19:16), and kings (1 Sam. 9:16; 16:3; 2 Sam. 12:7) were anointed with oil, and so consecrated to their respective offices. The great Messiah is anointed "above his fellows" (Ps. 45:7); i.e., he embraces in himself all the three offices. The Greek form "Messias" is only twice used in the New Testament, in John 1:41 and 4:25 (R.V., "Messiah"), and in the Old Testament the word Messiah, as the rendering of the Hebrew, occurs only twice (Dan 9:25, 26; R.V., "the anointed one").

The first great promise (Gen. 3:15) contains in it the germ of all the prophecies recorded in the Old Testament regarding the coming of the Messiah and the great work he was to accomplish on earth. The prophecies became more definite and fuller as the ages rolled on; the light shone more and more unto the perfect day. Different periods of prophetic revelation have been pointed out, (1) the patriarchal; (2) the Mosaic; (3) the period of David; (4) the period of prophetism, i.e., of those prophets whose works form a part of the Old Testament canon. The expectations of the Jews were thus kept alive from generation to generation, till the "fulness of the times," when Messiah came, "made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." In him all these ancient prophecies have their fulfilment. Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the great Deliverer who was to come. (Comp. Matt. 26:54; Mark 9:12; Luke 18:31; 22:37; John 5:39; Acts 2; 16:31; 26:22, 23.)

Read this for proof and explanation of Jesus being GOD, Savior foretold in the OT and fulfilled in the NT.
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=7726

Born again...info here
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=7172

I would pray to GOD and ask Him for guidance. Its ok to be not sure, but your on the right track if you truly seek wisdom at least. If you refuse Truth, it won't work.

 

[InnocentOdion]

It's fine putting in the definition of the Messiah-- I know what it means. It means annointed. As does Christ, from Christos. Nowhere in your definition does it say 'God'. It says 'annointed'. Not God. Priests, prophets, kings were annointed with oil. Jesus was also annointed. Does this mean priests, prophets and kings are God? No, it doesn't. But Jesus was annointed above all three - that doesn't make Jesus God.

It's not hypocritical to say he is the Messiah but not God. Messiah does not mean God, as you've showed me.


However. As I said. I can understand Jesus being God. It's not Jesus I'm worried about, reading the Bible makes me understand that Jesus is God. But I sometimes don't think he is-- but nothing has been said of the Holy Spirit in great detail. What is the Holy Spirit- and why is it{?} seperate from God the Father?

Through all of what I do, I only want to get to know God better. Reading the Bible makes me feel like Jesus is God, in some way.

 

[Chad]

Read these links and you'll get your answer:

Who is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=8438&highlight=trinity

Jesus' Two Natures
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=7989&highlight=trinity

Trinity
http://www.talkjesus.com/showpost.php?p=36453&postcount=6

 

[InnocentOdion]

Thanks for the read. So the Holy Spirit is God. I understand now. I needed to see verses of the Bible close together.

But:

1. What seperates the spirit from the Father?
2. Does the Spirit have a gender? (E.g., in Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic, is the Spirit refered to in the feminine pronoun? If it's masculine, then it could be either.)
3. Does the Spirit have a body?
4. How can the spirit fill us?

These are some burning questions.
Thanks again.

 

[trucker]

3 separate beings, working as 1

Dear All,

I am a Christian. I hold Jesus as the Messiah and Lord.

However, I am beginning do doubt the existence of the Holy Spirit. I currently don't see the Holy Spirit, currently, as a distinct person from God - rather God's actions and his love.

Because of this, I'm doubting the Trinity.

Sometimes I doubt the divinity of Christ as full God, full man. I see him as more than man, always- but I don't always see him as God.
​

I don't know why though. I just feel this way now. I don't go to a church because I'm not married, but I'm having a kid, and those at the churches are way too judgemental. If I had the money to get married, I would.

I'm starting to think like this:

God, the Father and Creator
|
The Holy Spirit, God's Actions, Comfort and Love
|
|
Jesus
|
|
|
+
|
|
Mankind


I see Jesus as forgiving sins, by God's permission and able to do miracles by God's will. I see Jesus as superior to mankind, by God the Father superior to Jesus.

Why am I thinking like this?
Am I still a Christian?

Can anyone help?

Dear innocentOdion:

Hey! These are great questions, and while I don't know everything, I can tell you what I do know. I'm actually a new user logged in on my dad's account, my new user name is HAPPYDAY333 soon to be in existence. Just to let ya know.

This may help you understand better. Someone used this illustration.... For example, take a family. Say the JONES family. While the JONES family (hypothetically speaking) consists of say, 4 people in the family: wife, husband, two kids. They're all under the same family name: JONES. However, they all function differently. The Dad plays a role in the family, the mom does, and the kids do. Now they're all of the same name, but all consist of different personalities, but all functioning under JONES family. AS ONE UNIT.

The holy spirit, Jesus, and God. They're all of the same Spirit, but they all function differently but reaching the same goal. In this I mean, the holy spirit dwells in you as you've accepted Jesus into your heart. The holy spirits job is to guide you and lead you. God's spirit lives inside of you, b/c of what Jesus did. I used to think the only way we had the holy spirit is if we spoke in tongues. But speaking in tongues is a gift as well. Speaking in tongues is an unknown language to us, as far as, we can't understand it with our minds.... but it's a direct prayer to GOD, when we don't know WHAT TO PRAY or HOW to pray. Say for instance, you don't know something about a situation and you need God's help, you can pray to God and then pray in the holy spirit for further guidance. Speaking in tongues edifies us as well. It helps you be more God conscience and sensitive to God's leadings. The holy spirit , Jesus, God NEVER condemns us.

Just b/c you have questions don't feel like you're not born again (saved).

I'm so sorry that you've felt judged by fellow Christians. The purpose of the church is to help and restore, not bring you down. If anything, even though people may not be acting in accordance to scripture, know that you have a heavenly Father who cares about you soooo much! Nobody changes due to condemnation.... God's motive to send Jesus to us was to not only save us but to give us everlasting life--which means as you walk on the earth, not just in heaven! He is the giver of JOY and PEACE and LOVE. If he didn't love us he wouldn't have sent you Jesus!

Sorry this is sooo long, does this help at all?

 

[jculver]

The trinity is one of the hardest things to get to a point of comfort with as far as understanding goes. MANY true Christians will misunderstand the trinity, especially new Christians. Understanding comes with time it's not an easy issue. Anyone who claims to have full knowledge of the nature of God is a liar. How will any man fully comprehend things that are spiritually discerned?

Just keep your intent to seek, and to understand the one true God revealed in the bible, and if your intent is genuinely to do so then God will be most pleased in his good time to bring you to understanding of this issue.

 

[itua70]

JESUS is GOD

hey innocentodion,

do u remember there is a passage in the Holy Bible where JESUS said if u have seen me u have seen the Father? sorry i can't really remember the particular verse but i do remember reading it in the bible. In other words JESUS is GOD.

GOD bless u Innocentodion

 

[trucker]

The trinity

These are some great discussions. I do not have all the answers, but this is how I believe according to scripture I have read. There seems to be so much confusion about the trinity and I do not believe God wants us to be confused.

To start with, think of water. Water exists in many forms. Ice, Steam, and liquid. They all are water, but in three distinct forms. They are the same yet different. Too many scriptures show the three different forms. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit yet they all perfom different functions but are part of the God head. I am going to list a bunch of scriptures, yet not write them due to the size of the post it would create. Look them over and I think some clarification of the trinity will unfold.

1. Gen 1: 26 Let us make man in OUR image
2. Gen 3: 22 Behold, man has become like US
3. John 14: 9 if you have seen me you have seen the Father
4. Luke 3: 21-22. God spoke, Holy Spirit descended, Jesus heard
5. John 4: 3 if you are the Son of God.
6. Matt 17: 4-5 God spoke acknowledged the son, disciples heard
7. II corth 13: 14 God, Jesus, Holy Spirit
8. Eph 1: 20 Jesus is seated at Gods right hand
9. Eph 4: all repeated instances of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit
10. John 16: 7-15 Jesus must leave, go to the Father and sends Holy Spirit
12. John 17: Jesus prayer to the Father
13: Phip 2: 1-11 Jesus left Heaven, became a man, raised up by the Father
14. Col 1: 15 Jesus is the image (not God, but image) of the invisible God
15: Heb 1: 3 Jesus is the expressed image of God. God spoke through King, priest and the prophet in times past, now through Jesus

This should get you started. Time and time again, we see the triune ness of the God head. They are comprised of three people yet the three are one. Like water, they all are the same with different functions. I always like to put a little humor in with this. Can you image in Eph 1: 20 where it is stated Jesus sits at the right hand of God where Jesus starts a conversation with God then jumps over to Gods chair and starts answering his own questions, hoping from chair to chair as he answers himself. Nah, there are three; they all work as one with different functions. There is Father God, his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who performs in his stead through you and I here on this earth. When Jesus was talking to Thomas in John 14: 9 he said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. He was saying and this is backed up by other scripture, that I am an exact representative of what Gods is like. So, if you want to know the complete picture of God, look in the Gospels, see how Jesus dealt with people and situations on earth and you have a clear picture of God. Actually, Jesus became man with the Holy Spirit of God in him, listening to God on this earth and performing his will. Remember where Jesus stated, I only do the will of the Father? He is our example of a man anointed by God to touch the world we are in on a daily basis. We to have the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead living in us now. We are Gods representatives here on this earth to bring light into a dark world. PRAISE GOD! Col 2: 9-10 states in Amplified bible the complete Godhead resides in you. God went through great effort to right the wrong Adam brought on mankind. Gods spirit is now in you and you can be lead by him in every area of your life. Gal 2: 19-21. One more thing, do you remember when Jesus stated from now on you will ask me nothing, but anything you ask the Father in my name I will do it? Again, it shows two distinct persons of a triune Godhead. John 15: 16-17. He does the things through the third person of the Godhead, the holy Spirit.

Another interesting topic would be on Jesus being called the Son of Man and why Jesus had to become a Man while on earth. But that would be for another post.

God bless you all,

Trucker