I'm having doubts...

[JPeG]

and I suppose I need help. I was born and raised a Catholic boy, and I spent my entire academic career in private, Catholic schools. Not that that matters...but I feel it's worth mentioning.

I have a few questions, seeing as how the nuns at my school refused to give me clear answers.

One major thing that irked me was the supposed concept of free will, when God knows everything that has happened and what will happen. What is choice when God already knows the choice we are going to make? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that make free will invalid?

One other issue I had was the existence of flaw, or imperfection. God, by all definitions, is perfect. What compels a perfect, spiritual being to create? If one is perfect, then one does not need. Correct? What does God need with creation?

If I may add as a supplement to the 2nd question, my teachers taught me that God created us to love Him. Another teacher taught me that God cannot be described by human words. God cannot be attributed with human characteristics, because God isn't human. He is a purely spiritual being, whose motives are incomprehensible by the human mind.

Help please

 

[SpiritLedEd]

and I suppose I need help. I was born and raised a Catholic boy, and I spent my entire academic career in private, Catholic schools. Not that that matters...but I feel it's worth mentioning.

I have a few questions, seeing as how the nuns at my school refused to give me clear answers.

This points out a major complaint I, as a former Catholic, have against the Roman Church:

The heirarchy does not encourage Catholics to study Scripture. I spent the first 46 years of my life in the Catholic Church, including 12 years in Catholic schools and was never encouraged to study Scripture. It seems as if the leaders in Rome think the lay people are still illiterate where spiritual things are concerned, as they were in the Middle Ages, and not capable of learning the Bible.

I'm not suggesting that you leave the Catholic Church, but, I am suggesting that you obtain a good Study Bible and use it. Personally, I use an easy-to-read version called The New International Version. Also, check out this website: Ask Questions about Life and God for easy to understand info.

BTW - those nuns couldn't answer your questions because they don't know the Scriptures either, nor do most priests. I'm very glad you've joined us. Welcome. I'll try to respond to your questions tomorrow, when I have more time.

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

 

[JPeG]

Thanks a bunch! I appreciate the welcome.

 

[JDFree]

and I suppose I need help. I was born and raised a Catholic boy, and I spent my entire academic career in private, Catholic schools. Not that that matters...but I feel it's worth mentioning.

I have a few questions, seeing as how the nuns at my school refused to give me clear answers.

One major thing that irked me was the supposed concept of free will, when God knows everything that has happened and what will happen. What is choice when God already knows the choice we are going to make? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that make free will invalid?

The best I heard it explained: A man is walking on the street one day, and passes a huge and ornate gate, with a small sign beside it, that many would fail to see: 'Enter if you will'. He enters in, and sees a beautiful and lush green Estate and gardens, and a gorgeous Mansion on a hill. He wanders through the gardens for a time, and finally makes his way up the hill. As he stands before the Mansion, outside by the door is a small brass plaque that many might not see, that says, 'Enter if you will'. He enters, and finds regal splendor within, He wanders around, finally going down a corridor with a doorway. Beside the door is a sign, 'Banquet Room, enter if you will.' He enters and finds a huge banquet table with lavish furnishings, and every imaginable delicacy prepared and waiting. Around the table are many chairs, and many people seated, silently waiting, and many empty chairs. As he walks around he finds each chair has a name on it. He continues and stops, when he finds a chair with his name on the sign, which also says, "Welcome, good and faithful servant, I knew you would come, enjoy the banquet forever."

Did he have Free Will?

One other issue I had was the existence of flaw, or imperfection. God, by all definitions, is perfect. What compels a perfect, spiritual being to create? If one is perfect, then one does not need. Correct? What does God need with creation?

God may be described near entirely in One Word, LOVE! Quite simply: God is so filled with Perfect Love within His Beings, [and you know of the Trinity] that He simply could not contain Himself within that Love, or His Love within himself for all of eternity. Because it is the very Spirit of Life of Him, with every thought, Word and action pouring out with the Power of that Love, He MUST create other beings from himself whom He could share it with!

The True Love of God is not a thing to be kept as possession, but is instead a Dynamic Living Spirit of Love, which must be poured out on others. The more that is poured out, the more that pours in, so that by giving of it one receives of it, in an endless Circle of Love.

If I may add as a supplement to the 2nd question, my teachers taught me that God created us to love Him. Another teacher taught me that God cannot be described by human words. God cannot be attributed with human characteristics, because God isn't human. He is a purely spiritual being, whose motives are incomprehensible by the human mind.

Too bad they told you that, because God told us different! He said we are made in HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS, so you certainly can describe God in human terms, especially like the term 'Jesus'. All that Jesus said and did, when come as a man, the Son of God as Son of man, is that same Love, embodied in One Person! It and He are LOVE ALIVE! He died on the cross in Love, a sacrifice of His Life for ours. But really, anybody could do that. What is different, is that He was raised from the dead, by His own Life Spirit of Love in Father, Spirit and Jesus, leaving our sin behind in the grave!

Pray Jesus to reveal to you ALL of His plan for Love and what your part in it is, that you might know and follow after. Thereby in another day, when you spy the Mansion, and enter, and the Banquet room, and enter, you too will see, "Welcome, good and faithful servant, I knew you would come, enjoy the banquet forever.

 

[Sheep]

God and the Geese

I know this will answer a few questions you have. I was in sort of a similar religion (it's origin is Catholic)
Please read this story. The moment I began to read your post, I felt the Spirit within me tels me to give you this.

I pray that Jesus will help you to the full truth and that He will introduce Himself to you like He did to me and show you all the things you were missing out on.
He loves you so much, so much that you will never be able to understand.
Amen


God and the Geese:

There was once a man who didn't believe in God,

and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays.
His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus,
despite his disparaging comments.

One snowy Eve, his wife was taking their children to service in the farm community in which they lived.

They were to talk about Jesus' birth. She asked him to come, but he refused

"That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man?

That's ridiculous!"

So she and the children left, and he stayed home.

A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard.
As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm.
He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump.

Something had hit the window.
He looked out, but couldn't see more than a few feet.

When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window.

In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese.
Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and couldn't go on.
They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter.
They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly.
A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed.

The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them.
The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought.
It's warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm.
So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide,
then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside.
But the geese just fluttered around aimlessly and didn't seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them.

The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them, and they moved further away.
He went into the house and came with some bread, broke it up, and made a bread crumb trail leading to the barn.
They still didn't catch on.

Now he was getting frustrated.
He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn,
but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn.
Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe.

"Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed.

"Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?"

He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human
"If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud.

Then he had an idea.
He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese.

He then released it.
His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn - and one-by-one, the other geese followed it to safety.

He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind:
"If only I were a goose, then I could save them!"
Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier.
"Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!"

Suddenly it all made sense.
That is what God had done.
We were like the geese - blind, lost, perishing.
God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us.

As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought.
Suddenly he understood why Christ had come.

Years of doubt and disbelief vanished with the passing storm.
He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer:
"Thank You, God, for coming in human form to get me out of the storm!" <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

 

[JDFree]

Excellent, Sheep, thank you!

 

[Brighthouse]

To answer both question point blank.free will,Yes you are correct!! Jesus does know what we are going to do,but we have the choice,there are 2 people who do not know,one is yourself,and the other is the devil,ask Job,ask Judas,do you think the devil would of used Judas to send Jesus to the cross, knowing!! LOl he would rise again!! Remember Judas was a thief, number 1(John 12:6) and becasue he himself gave the devil an oppertinuity eph 4:27 he became possessed Luke 22:3. by the devil himself. number 2. remember no matter what others tell you,it is only truth when you see it in the Word for yourself,Jesus as you know came both in the Flesh,as well as Spirit,for Jesus who is God( john 14:6)( john 14:9-14) ( john 10:30) and John 8:58 just to name a few) came so that we had someone to follow.Jesus does not ask us to love,he commands us to love,for my brother in Christ this is how others know we are part of our living Jesus.John 15:4-17 please read this,you will understand. Hope this helps you brother in your quest to become like our Living Jesus! blessing to you.

 

[JPeG]

The best I heard it explained: A man is walking on the street one day, and passes a huge and ornate gate, with a small sign beside it, that many would fail to see: 'Enter if you will'. He enters in, and sees a beautiful and lush green Estate and gardens, and a gorgeous Mansion on a hill. He wanders through the gardens for a time, and finally makes his way up the hill. As he stands before the Mansion, outside by the door is a small brass plaque that many might not see, that says, 'Enter if you will'. He enters, and finds regal splendor within, He wanders around, finally going down a corridor with a doorway. Beside the door is a sign, 'Banquet Room, enter if you will.' He enters and finds a huge banquet table with lavish furnishings, and every imaginable delicacy prepared and waiting. Around the table are many chairs, and many people seated, silently waiting, and many empty chairs. As he walks around he finds each chair has a name on it. He continues and stops, when he finds a chair with his name on the sign, which also says, "Welcome, good and faithful servant, I knew you would come, enjoy the banquet forever."

Did he have Free Will?

From my perspective, it doesn't seem like the man had free will. The final sign indicates that an omniscient being knew that the man would choose to enter. If this omniscient being knows what is going to happen, then 'choice' is an illusion. It's an illusion because the man is merely acting out what this god-like being foresaw. Am I wrong?

Too bad they told you that, because God told us different! He said we are made in HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS, so you certainly can describe God in human terms, especially like the term 'Jesus'. All that Jesus said and did, when come as a man, the Son of God as Son of man, is that same Love, embodied in One Person! It and He are LOVE ALIVE! He died on the cross in Love, a sacrifice of His Life for ours. But really, anybody could do that. What is different, is that He was raised from the dead, by His own Life Spirit of Love in Father, Spirit and Jesus, leaving our sin behind in the grave!

I understand that we are made in God's image and likeness, but that doesn't mean we can anthropomorphize God. We can't give Him human characteristics, because 1. God isn't human, 2. God is a purely spiritual being, whose existence is beyond our comprehension, 3. God's plan is unbeknownst to us all, and so it is impossible to know what God thinks or says.

Jesus is a separate being from God, yet they are one. That's the mystery of the Holy Trinity. We can safely assume that God the Father does not carry the same characteristics of God the Son, because they're distinguished as 2 in a triune God. Therefore, we cannot attribute human characteristics to God. Exactly why God does so many good things is unknown to us. So we can't just call God "loving" or "generous". Those are words to describe humans. If God is beyond our comprehension (omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient), then how can we know that God sacrificed his Son out of love? Because it's in the Bible?

The Bible was written by man, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Take the perspective of a non-believer for a second. To an atheist who doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit, he'll only believe that the Bible was written by MAN and MAN only. MAN is bound to imperfections, and so the Bible is imperfect. <---- What credible atheists believe.

 

[Brighthouse]

Jpeg,ok, let us not use the Bible then,you say a man saw the sign,ok, he decided to enter did he not? ah he was not forced in was he? Since the person who set up the banquet, believed he would come in, why he had his name on a seat.HOWEVER!! what if the man just passed it by,which he could have done, had he believed it was a waste of his time! He decided to go,he made the choice,which we all have. We can take many different roads in life,there is a narrow road,which is only shown to us like a banquet,but we do not have to go,we can decide on what we wish,true an all knowing God does know,but we do not. I do not tell you what you have to believe,but you cannot tell me no one has choice, why we make choicies daily,what pop you want to drink,where you wish to go,when you want to go,true, all is known,by God,but if you wish to go left,you are never forced right. just a thought for you to consider.

 

[JPeG]

I'm not saying that we don't have a choice, I'm only saying that I don't understand how free will can exist with a God who already knows what happens.

Despite having the choice to go in or not, this omniscient being already knew he was going to go in. The man's "choice" is predetermined. I think? Just my thoughts..

 

[Sheep]

Having doubts...

JPeG - "True love NEVER forces..."

 

[JDFree]

"From my perspective, it doesn't seem like the man had free will. The final sign indicates that an omniscient being knew that the man would choose to enter. If this omniscient being knows what is going to happen, then 'choice' is an illusion. It's an illusion because the man is merely acting out what this god-like being foresaw. Am I wrong?"

Yes, I believe you are mistaken, The reason is that in all accounts he didn't even have to stop at the gate outside, but he did, of his own free will. After that all decisions, even once inside, were his in free will, because he could leave anytime. If you were raised Roman Catholic & schooled by them then one of the primary things you learned is that God is Omniscient, as all knowing. Therefore it's a given He knows what's going to happen, in all things. That doesn't say He manages our life decisions in any way. If He did, then from His endless heart of Love, and His entire Entity as the God of Love, He would just go ahead and save everybody, without any sacrifice. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the direct result of one thing only: God's Love again demonstrated in His Gift to man of Free Will, and the errors that occur from our lousy choices compared to God's Perfect Holiness.

I understand that we are made in God's image and likeness, but that doesn't mean we can anthropomorphize God. We can't give Him human characteristics, because 1. God isn't human, 2. God is a purely spiritual being, whose existence is beyond our comprehension, 3. God's plan is unbeknownst to us all, and so it is impossible to know what God thinks or says.

You sure you were taught Roman Catholic doctrine? I ask because 1, 2 & 3 sure as heck aren't part of it. If it was then every RC church would be pulling down the crucifixes in every church, and yanking them off the necks of nuns, priests, monsignors, bishops, cardinals & popes!
1.] God is 100% human in the Being of Jesus Christ, born of a woman, flesh & bones man, Son of man and yet Son of God. That is RC major doctrine, along with much about His very human mother, Mary. So, no idea where you're getting your information on that.
2.] Jesus is eternally the Son of God, and the Son of man, regardless of where He is or what He's doing. In another day we fellow humans and the bride of Christ Jesus, will be changed, to be like Him, and the two shall be one flesh. That means that yes, he is a Spiritual Being, but that He also has His resurrected human visage, nail marks and wound in His side & all, as Thomas the apostle found out, before declaring, "My Lord and my God." God's existence is not beyond our knowing, but indeed we only know in part on this side of the veil. At a later time we will know, even as we are known.
3.] God's plan is unbeknownst to us all? Cannot imagine where you're getting your information from! God's Plan is spelled out in incredible depth & detail, to such a depth that after a lifetime of study a man will still be discovering more of His Truth. Even a really bad translation of the Bible will at least tell you that God's Plan is that all men might be saved, in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Not rocket science either, and intentionally so: because all with a warm brain get an equal chance, in God's astounding Love.

Jesus is a separate being from God, yet they are one. That's the mystery of the Holy Trinity. We can safely assume that God the Father does not carry the same characteristics of God the Son, because they're distinguished as 2 in a triune God. Therefore, we cannot attribute human characteristics to God. Exactly why God does so many good things is unknown to us. So we can't just call God "loving" or "generous". Those are words to describe humans. If God is beyond our comprehension (omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient), then how can we know that God sacrificed his Son out of love? Because it's in the Bible?

Well, Jesus states, "I and my Father are one." and I figure He should know. Jesus is God, and Jesus is born as a man, a hu-man, just like us. When He was in human form on earth He was still God, come in the flesh. He is a separate Being WITHIN God, not separate from God, unless when you say 'God' you're only referring to God the Father.

I think your ideas are incorrect here: We can safely assume that God the Father does not carry the same characteristics of God the Son, because they're distinguished as 2 in a triune God.

If you have a father in a family, and a son, do they not share the same characteristics? Where it is written many times in Scripture that we are made in His image and likeness, doesn't that tell you the likeness of God is similar to ours, as proven when Jesus came as a man? Why shouldn't God the Father be identical in form, but Spiritual, and a different identity of Being? Now, I'm not saying it isn't difficult to comprehend, but yet God gives us plenty in His Word to know much about it.

I strongly suspect that within that Catholic upbringing you've never read the Bible, which is the normal condition in that church. I'd strongly suggest you do find yourself a Bible and read it cover to cover, you will be entirely amazed, I was! Just about every page I turned I thought, Hey, the RC church never told me that! Page by page it was nothing but fascinating!

The Bible was written by man, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely correct!

Take the perspective of a non-believer for a second. To an atheist who doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit, he'll only believe that the Bible was written by MAN and MAN only. MAN is bound to imperfections, and so the Bible is imperfect. <---- What credible atheists believe.

Well, to be precise, Atheists don't believe, but by golly, they very strongly don't believe it, and are almost always willing to argue about how much and how strongly they don't believe! I sort of consider an avowed Atheist as someone who has developed a whole religion of non-belief in God, and that there's another category of non-believers who simply aren't convinced of the existence of God.

 

[localgirl]

I know this will answer a few questions you have. I was in sort of a similar religion (it's origin is Catholic)
Please read this story. The moment I began to read your post, I felt the Spirit within me tels me to give you this.
I pray that Jesus will help you to the full truth and that He will introduce Himself to you like He did to me and show you all the things you were missing out on.
He loves you so much, so much that you will never be able to understand.
Amen

God and the Geese:
There was once a man who didn't believe in God,
and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays.
His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus,
despite his disparaging comments.

One snowy Eve, his wife was taking their children to service in the farm community in which they lived.

They were to talk about Jesus' birth. She asked him to come, but he refused

"That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man?

That's ridiculous!"

So she and the children left, and he stayed home.

A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard.
As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm.
He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump.

Something had hit the window.
He looked out, but couldn't see morethan a few feet.

When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window.

In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese.
Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and couldn't go on.
They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter.
They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly.
A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed.

The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them.
The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought.
It's warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm.
So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide,
then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside.
But the geese just fluttered around aimlessly and didn't seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them.

The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them, and they moved further away.
He went into the house and came with some bread, broke it up, and made a bread crumb trail leading to the barn.
They still didn't catch on.

Now he was getting frustrated.
He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn,
but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn.
Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe.

"Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed.

"Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?"

He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human
"If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud.

Then he had an idea.
He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese.

He then released it.
His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn - and one-by-one, the other geese followed it to safety.

He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind:
"If only I were a goose, then I could save them!"
Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier.
"Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!"

Suddenly it all made sense.
That is what God had done.
We were like the geese-blind, lost, perishing.
God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us.

As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought.
Suddenly he understood why Christ had come.

Years of doubt and disbelief vanished with the passing storm.
He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer:
"Thank You, God, for coming in human form to get me out of the storm!"

thank you! this helped me! peace

 

[Sheep]

No problem Localgirl - all praise to our One and only Saviour Jesus Christ!!!!

My God bless us all with His loveing wisdom.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

If this omniscient being knows what is going to happen, then 'choice' is an illusion. It's an illusion because the man is merely acting out what this god-like being foresaw. Am I wrong?

One of the powers God has is the power to choose to limit and control His use of His powers. Thus He is able to both know what we are going to do in advance and, at the same time, not interfere with our carrying out the deed.

SLE

 

[JPeG]

One of the powers God has is the power to choose to limit and control His use of His powers. Thus He is able to both know what we are going to do in advance and, at the same time, not interfere with our carrying out the deed.

SLE

That makes total sense. Thank you for answering the question.

 

[JPeG]

"From my perspective, it doesn't seem like the man had free will. The final sign indicates that an omniscient being knew that the man would choose to enter. If this omniscient being knows what is going to happen, then 'choice' is an illusion. It's an illusion because the man is merely acting out what this god-like being foresaw. Am I wrong?"

Yes, I believe you are mistaken, The reason is that in all accounts he didn't even have to stop at the gate outside, but he did, of his own free will. After that all decisions, even once inside, were his in free will, because he could leave anytime. If you were raised Roman Catholic & schooled by them then one of the primary things you learned is that God is Omniscient, as all knowing. Therefore it's a given He knows what's going to happen, in all things. That doesn't say He manages our life decisions in any way. If He did, then from His endless heart of Love, and His entire Entity as the God of Love, He would just go ahead and save everybody, without any sacrifice. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the direct result of one thing only: God's Love again demonstrated in His Gift to man of Free Will, and the errors that occur from our lousy choices compared to God's Perfect Holiness.

I understand that we are made in God's image and likeness, but that doesn't mean we can anthropomorphize God. We can't give Him human characteristics, because 1. God isn't human, 2. God is a purely spiritual being, whose existence is beyond our comprehension, 3. God's plan is unbeknownst to us all, and so it is impossible to know what God thinks or says.

You sure you were taught Roman Catholic doctrine? I ask because 1, 2 & 3 sure as heck aren't part of it. If it was then every RC church would be pulling down the crucifixes in every church, and yanking them off the necks of nuns, priests, monsignors, bishops, cardinals & popes!
1.] God is 100% human in the Being of Jesus Christ, born of a woman, flesh & bones man, Son of man and yet Son of God. That is RC major doctrine, along with much about His very human mother, Mary. So, no idea where you're getting your information on that.
2.] Jesus is eternally the Son of God, and the Son of man, regardless of where He is or what He's doing. In another day we fellow humans and the bride of Christ Jesus, will be changed, to be like Him, and the two shall be one flesh. That means that yes, he is a Spiritual Being, but that He also has His resurrected human visage, nail marks and wound in His side & all, as Thomas the apostle found out, before declaring, "My Lord and my God." God's existence is not beyond our knowing, but indeed we only know in part on this side of the veil. At a later time we will know, even as we are known.
3.] God's plan is unbeknownst to us all? Cannot imagine where you're getting your information from! God's Plan is spelled out in incredible depth & detail, to such a depth that after a lifetime of study a man will still be discovering more of His Truth. Even a really bad translation of the Bible will at least tell you that God's Plan is that all men might be saved, in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Not rocket science either, and intentionally so: because all with a warm brain get an equal chance, in God's astounding Love.

Jesus is a separate being from God, yet they are one. That's the mystery of the Holy Trinity. We can safely assume that God the Father does not carry the same characteristics of God the Son, because they're distinguished as 2 in a triune God. Therefore, we cannot attribute human characteristics to God. Exactly why God does so many good things is unknown to us. So we can't just call God "loving" or "generous". Those are words to describe humans. If God is beyond our comprehension (omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient), then how can we know that God sacrificed his Son out of love? Because it's in the Bible?

Well, Jesus states, "I and my Father are one." and I figure He should know. Jesus is God, and Jesus is born as a man, a hu-man, just like us. When He was in human form on earth He was still God, come in the flesh. He is a separate Being WITHIN God, not separate from God, unless when you say 'God' you're only referring to God the Father.

I think your ideas are incorrect here: We can safely assume that God the Father does not carry the same characteristics of God the Son, because they're distinguished as 2 in a triune God.

If you have a father in a family, and a son, do they not share the same characteristics? Where it is written many times in Scripture that we are made in His image and likeness, doesn't that tell you the likeness of God is similar to ours, as proven when Jesus came as a man? Why shouldn't God the Father be identical in form, but Spiritual, and a different identity of Being? Now, I'm not saying it isn't difficult to comprehend, but yet God gives us plenty in His Word to know much about it.

I strongly suspect that within that Catholic upbringing you've never read the Bible, which is the normal condition in that church. I'd strongly suggest you do find yourself a Bible and read it cover to cover, you will be entirely amazed, I was! Just about every page I turned I thought, Hey, the RC church never told me that! Page by page it was nothing but fascinating!

The Bible was written by man, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely correct!

Take the perspective of a non-believer for a second. To an atheist who doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit, he'll only believe that the Bible was written by MAN and MAN only. MAN is bound to imperfections, and so the Bible is imperfect. <---- What credible atheists believe.

Well, to be precise, Atheists don't believe, but by golly, they very strongly don't believe it, and are almost always willing to argue about how much and how strongly they don't believe! I sort of consider an avowed Atheist as someone who has developed a whole religion of non-belief in God, and that there's another category of non-believers who simply aren't convinced of the existence of God.

You're completely evading my argument. Because God knew that the man would enter, prior to the actual decision, the event of the man entering is already written. <--- because the decision is already known.

God is human through Jesus, but there is stark distinction between Jesus and God even though they are, dogmatically, the same being. I want to talk to you about the Bible. Christianity has NEVER been about the Bible, it's supplementary. Christianity is about believing in Christ, the religion's namesake. Yes, the Bible was written by man and lets presume for a moment that there was NO divine inspiration behind it. The Bible has flaws, and even OT stories got me questioning the intent of the writers. The word of God? These passages got me thinking. Thinking hard. And this is why I doubt.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

On the Holy Trinity, you're only repeating what I said. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SEPARATE beings in one being. Many people will say that it's a contradiction, but the Catholic Church calls this a "mystery."

In my Catholic upbringing it is true that there was less focus on Scripture, but only because it is believed ( at least by my teachers ) that the Bible was no longer a credible source for morality or ethics because of the aforementioned passages ( and many others ). After all, that's what religion is all about right? Moral guidance?

 

[JDFree]

You're completely evading my argument. Because God knew that the man would enter, prior to the actual decision, the event of the man entering is already written. <--- because the decision is already known.

God is human through Jesus, but there is stark distinction between Jesus and God even though they are, dogmatically, the same being. I want to talk to you about the Bible. Christianity has NEVER been about the Bible, it's supplementary. Christianity is about believing in Christ, the religion's namesake. Yes, the Bible was written by man and lets presume for a moment that there was NO divine inspiration behind it. The Bible has flaws, and even OT stories got me questioning the intent of the writers. The word of God? These passages got me thinking. Thinking hard. And this is why I doubt.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

On the Holy Trinity, you're only repeating what I said. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SEPARATE beings in one being. Many people will say that it's a contradiction, but the Catholic Church calls this a "mystery."

In my Catholic upbringing it is true that there was less focus on Scripture, but only because it is believed ( at least by my teachers ) that the Bible was no longer a credible source for morality or ethics because of the aforementioned passages ( and many others ). After all, that's what religion is all about right? Moral guidance?

Well gee, excuse the heck outta me! First: I had no idea your plan was to start an argument, because you never metioned you had an antagonistic agenda or whatever. At any rate, I didn't evade anything. What I did do was give to you of myself, by taking well over an hour of my time trying to help you in answering what I perceived as sincere questions regarding faith. In that I did the best I could with what I had, which of course may fall short. I've been down with a respiratory virus so I just awoke from a long afternoon nap. If you want to give me time to wake up and for the meds to kick in I'll be in the mood and ready for an argument with a polar bear, unarmed. Pray for the polar bear.

Obviously in your view I missed the point; but I'm still struggling to figure what that point is? I demonstrated how that regardless of our Lord God knowing the outcome beforehand, or with foreknowledge: He does, in His magnificent Charity toward us, bestow Free Will, that we may choose as we wish in every situation. Looking back at the results of most of my choices before knowing Him, I rather wish He had kept the choices in His Power, because mine stunk.

Now, we do know for a surety that we have Free Will in this, literally in this: right here in front of us. Did God make you start this thread? Were you forced/caused to write what you did, or was it a choice? From the answers given back, does it sound like all were dictated from the mind of God? In all honesty I confess that my prayer to the Lord is to give me the correct answers for folks when I reply, so I cheat with every post. But I've got God up against the wall on that, 'cause He can't whack me for cheating by writing what He made me write hah! But again, seriously, I think that's another good demonstration: He inspires, I choose - use it or not? My choice, my free will.

I'd need a few thousand pages to describe the lousy choices I made B/C. Yet, He allowed me to make them, even to the wounding of us both. Before Christ I was a man of extreme perversions of wickedness beyond description, even laying awake at night planning how much farther I could go in extreme, vicious, detestable, hurtful, dishonest ways of life, to get all I could and get even, w-a-y more than getting even, with whatever fool dared to try to stop me. Every single one found out they chose the wrong guy to mess with. That's not predestined by God, in the extreme. Neither is it logical that a Perfect God of Truth and Love and winsome Charity of Heart would reward that with Blessed Salvation, but go figure: here I sit, writing to you, washed snow white in the Blood of the Lamb of Sacrifice!!!

It is clear that His Will is, was and ever will be that I would be saved; but I cannot imagine why, considering who I was. Regardless, He has done it solely of himself. My road to salvation, even the moments of the entrance there, were my choice every single instant. His choice was Salvation. We both got our way, even though they were contrary to one another, and yet both of us are overjoyed in happiness with the result. Nope, I don't understand it; maybe never will after a billion years in His Heavenly Reward!???

Somehow, a related thought: in Sripture He tells us He has put our sin as far away as the east is from the west, Psalm 103:12. Interesting choice of words of distance. Had He said, "...as far as the north is from the south..." we'd be in trouble. You can only travel so far north before the North Pole and penguins and polar bears; then you pass over and are going south without changing direction, so north to south and vice versa is a finite direction, and it ain't far. However, by saying and causing them to be "...as far away as the east to the west...", we may go in either of those directions to the point of infinity, and that of infinity in both directions, because you can go west or east forever: that they are put as far away as from infinity to infinity from His and our place in the center! It's Predestined that He made north/south and east/west such as they are, and puts our sins there: but do we really want to argue the point with Him and demand that He not?

Would you ever have dreamed that the course of this which I wrote was predestined: that my first point above was about polar bears and poles, and my final point would end there; and that there was a meandering journey in between in which we were both free to make decisions in our free will: but in end the two are one, happily joined together? In the first of polar reference we were south, then went north, then went south again, and the final destination was the next logical step in that journey, north: yet it ended up in transposition of easy/west, with neither clearly revealed to us what is their substance, yet we are happily here, with more to be revealed. Get it? Free Will/Predestination as one in agreement.

My personal argument is where a man proposes that there is ONLY Free Will, or ONLY Predestination, because that is incorrect, according to God, in His Word.

 

[JPeG]

Well gee, excuse the heck outta me! First: I had no idea your plan was to start an argument, because you never metioned you had an antagonistic agenda or whatever. At any rate, I didn't evade anything. What I did do was give to you of myself, by taking well over an hour of my time trying to help you in answering what I perceived as sincere questions regarding faith. In that I did the best I could with what I had, which of course may fall short. I've been down with a respiratory virus so I just awoke from a long afternoon nap. If you want to give me time to wake up and for the meds to kick in I'll be in the mood and ready for an argument with a polar bear, unarmed. Pray for the polar bear.

Obviously in your view I missed the point; but I'm still struggling to figure what that point is? I demonstrated how that regardless of our Lord God knowing the outcome beforehand, or with foreknowledge: He does, in His magnificent Charity toward us, bestow Free Will, that we may choose as we wish in every situation. Looking back at the results of most of my choices before knowing Him, I rather wish He had kept the choices in His Power, because mine stunk.

Now, we do know for a surety that we have Free Will in this, literally in this: right here in front of us. Did God make you start this thread? Were you forced/caused to write what you did, or was it a choice? From the answers given back, does it sound like all were dictated from the mind of God? In all honesty I confess that my prayer to the Lord is to give me the correct answers for folks when I reply, so I cheat with every post. But I've got God up against the wall on that, 'cause He can't whack me for cheating by writing what He made me write hah! But again, seriously, I think that's another good demonstration: He inspires, I choose - use it or not? My choice, my free will.

I'd need a few thousand pages to describe the lousy choices I made B/C. Yet, He allowed me to make them, even to the wounding of us both. Before Christ I was a man of extreme perversions of wickedness beyond description, even laying awake at night planning how much farther I could go in extreme, vicious, detestable, hurtful, dishonest ways of life, to get all I could and get even, w-a-y more than getting even, with whatever fool dared to try to stop me. Every single one found out they chose the wrong guy to mess with. That's not predestined by God, in the extreme. Neither is it logical that a Perfect God of Truth and Love and winsome Charity of Heart would reward that with Blessed Salvation, but go figure: here I sit, writing to you, washed snow white in the Blood of the Lamb of Sacrifice!!!

It is clear that His Will is, was and ever will be that I would be saved; but I cannot imagine why, considering who I was. Regardless, He has done it solely of himself. My road to salvation, even the moments of the entrance there, were my choice every single instant. His choice was Salvation. We both got our way, even though they were contrary to one another, and yet both of us are overjoyed in happiness with the result. Nope, I don't understand it; maybe never will after a billion years in His Heavenly Reward!???

Somehow, a related thought: in Sripture He tells us He has put our sin as far away as the east is from the west, Psalm 103:12. Interesting choice of words of distance. Had He said, "...as far as the north is from the south..." we'd be in trouble. You can only travel so far north before the North Pole and penguins and polar bears; then you pass over and are going south without changing direction, so north to south and vice versa is a finite direction, and it ain't far. However, by saying and causing them to be "...as far away as the east to the west...", we may go in either of those directions to the point of infinity, and that of infinity in both directions, because you can go west or east forever: that they are put as far away as from infinity to infinity from His and our place in the center! It's Predestined that He made north/south and east/west such as they are, and puts our sins there: but do we really want to argue the point with Him and demand that He not?

Would you ever have dreamed that the course of this which I wrote was predestined: that my first point above was about polar bears and poles, and my final point would end there; and that there was a meandering journey in between in which we were both free to make decisions in our free will: but in end the two are one, happily joined together? In the first of polar reference we were south, then went north, then went south again, and the final destination was the next logical step in that journey, north: yet it ended up in transposition of easy/west, with neither clearly revealed to us what is their substance, yet we are happily here, with more to be revealed. Get it? Free Will/Predestination as one in agreement.

My personal argument is where a man proposes that there is ONLY Free Will, or ONLY Predestination, because that is incorrect, according to God, in His Word.

You took my statement out of context. I didn't mean argument as in debate, I meant argument as in a declarative statement. I only came looking for answers; at least to me, it's a sincere question.

My point is that free will and an all-knowing God is contradictory. SpiritLedEd gave me a good answer as to how that's possible...sort of. It's ambiguous, but I'll accept it. As with you, I've stated my point. Within the story, God gave the man the choice to enter or not, whilst having knowledge of what the man would choose. The man chose to enter, which God already knew. Because God knows he'll enter, it's already written. I can relate that your own personal story.

God, because he's omniscient, foresaw your conversion. Your change of heart was already seen by God. It was already written. Do you have the choice to follow what was written by God?

There's no doubt that God gives us all hope; it's a truth that both you and I accept. I do not doubt that your conversion was sincere, and I believe that whole-heartedly. On the separate issue of Free Will, like I said before, we can agree to disagree.

 

[JDFree]

"God is human through Jesus, but there is stark distinction between Jesus and God even though they are, dogmatically, the same being. I want to talk to you about the Bible. Christianity has NEVER been about the Bible, it's supplementary. Christianity is about believing in Christ, the religion's namesake. Yes, the Bible was written by man and lets presume for a moment that there was NO divine inspiration behind it. The Bible has flaws, and even OT stories got me questioning the intent of the writers. The word of God? These passages got me thinking. Thinking hard. And this is why I doubt. "

Respectfully, it is my belief that there is no such "...stark distinction..." between Jesus and God, because Jesus and God said there was not and I'm quite convinced they would know. The only distinction is that the Son of God, Jesus who is God, came to be born of a woman as a man, the Son of man. That distinction is only a reference point for the sake of man, much like north/south & east/west, because Jesus in the Godhead has forever been Jesus in the Godhead, and His birth as Son of man has forever been a part of His Being in the Godhead: such that though an event of His birth occurred in the physical world He is, was and ever will be in fact unchanged, always having been the Lamb of Sacrifice from before the foundations of the world, Ephesians 1:4, 1Peter 1:20, which thereby means from the eternity before it. We are made in His Image, so read 1Peter 1:20 closely: Jesus describes himself as Foreordained!

In stating that 'Christianity has never been about the Bible, and the Bible is 'supplemental', you do error in the extreme in regard to Christian Belief. No, there was not an assembled 'Bible' as we know it in existence for possibly 200-300 years; I really don't know when it was first assembled from Gospels & Epistles. However Chritianity was founded on Christ, His teachings and His Perfect Sacrifice. Thereafter His apostles & disciples who were eyewitnesses, and present to hear His exact words and see His exact actions and miracles that resulted, preached exactly that. Those teachings were exactly & precisely what the Gospels and Epistles said, as the same apostles and disciples wrote it out. In addition, these apostles and disciples were filled and in dwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, a Being within the Godhead of the Trinity of God. He actively lived within their beings, to guide them in writing of Scripture, that it be the exact & precise Truth, and the literal Word of God. Because Jesus is the same God of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, that which was written is called the Word, and that Word is also Jesus. See the beginning of the Gospel of John for explanation: Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Word, and the Word is the Bible, which is the Substance of Christianity.

"Christianity is about believing in Christ, the religion's namesake."

Error: true Christianity is a personal Relationship between living being man and Living Being Jesus Christ, not a Religion of man's rules and man's approved methods of worship. Neither you nor I are responsible for that Relationship having been made into a Religion by many: but the genuine Living Relationship is ours to have for FREE if we so choose!

Believe is a relative term. Namesake is a relative term, but as used is a diminutive perjorative, bordering on direct insult I'd say, depending on intent of usage. Sort of like saying Jesus is to Christianity as Henry Ford is to car: namesake only. James gives perspective on 'believe': "Though believest that there is one God; thou doest well, the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19, or "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?" Acts 19:15. There's more to 'believe' than believe, if you read James further words James 2:14-26. To truly Believe is as Jesus said, to take and eat of Him, and drink of Him, that He becomes the Living Substance of our innermost being, the Life, the Breath and the Spirit in a man who truly Believes. "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53 True Christianity is not "...about believing in Christ...". It is about LIVING Christ, as the Center of our being, all in Him, a fundamental and profound difference.

"...lets presume for a moment that there was NO divine inspiration behind it."

Why presume that which is not true, for the sake of truthful discussion regarding Truth?

" The Bible has flaws..." To that statement I can only relate that I studied the Bible for roughly 12-18 hours per day, 7 days a week, every week of the year for 8 years; then dropped back to 8 hours per day, 7 days per week, every week of the year for 4 years: and I haven't found a true flaw, as in a single genuine error yet! I am not a gullible type, being somewhat like the Bereans. If there are any 'flaws', they are copyists errors, not Scriptural errors.

"The word of God?" How I became most thoroughly convinced, though it wasn't necessary because I was already entirely convinced by other proofs: I noticed my Bible had Reference Notes in center column of each page. I had actually been too busy reading and studying to bother with them before this moment. On a Friday morning very early, I read a verse and decided to see about these references. There were maybe 5 or 6 for the verse, so I checked each one. Then I thought, What the heck? and checked the references for all those verse also. I kept this up through all through Friday, all through Friday night, through Saturday, all through Saturday night without bothering to sleep, though I did eat some calories I think.

By Sunday morning I collapsed beside my bed, not just crying but sobbing from the pit of my heart before my God. I had discovered in that blur of days that every single verse in the Bible was directly connected to every single other verse, yet in 66 separate books, written by 43 different writers, in at least 3 languages, in at least 5 countries, in several different cultures, over the course of 1,000's of years, with most of those writers never meeting each other, in a day when all correspondence was handwritten on leather or parchment scrolls with great labor, and no electronic or other communication or storage existed. That told me without any shadow of a doubt: God, the Lord God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and all that in it is, had personally Authored the Bible through the willing hands of men, because it was visibly and verifiably one single uninterrupted communication from God to usward.