Is God One or is He Three?

[Rhema]

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

If it was given to him, then he hadn't already had it, no?

(Just wondering what point you were trying to make here.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

But He wasn't born with the sin nature.

Unless people aren't born with a sin nature....

I agree that the Christ became the Son at a specific time in history.

And yet if "Christ" means "anointed one," just when was the Son anointed, and anointed with what?

Wouldn't, then, the Son become the Christ?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

You can beat your brains out trying to understand the relationship between the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, but you can't understand it.

And yet I understand this relationship, and no brains were beaten out for me to do so. It just took me taking the time to let God explain it to me.

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

but with sufficient time with God, we should be able to understand it.

As those who have taken the time to do so would agree. IF God is inclined for you to understand it. Sometimes one needs to learn other things first.

We are 2.. we have a flesh body that is subject to the elements, the diseases of the mind, etc.
and we have our spirit. that's it. together, they make up the mystical jewish concept of the soul.

Indeed that IS the ancient Jewish concept as found in the OT. But the Hellenistic (Greek) view of Body, Soul, and Spirit as three distinct elements is found in the NT.

there is only their spirit, which is ONE PERSON..

In order to understand and then be able to communicate anything, one must craft and protect the integrity of one's Definitional Framework.

As is well known, the New Testament texts are written in Greek - the common Greek dialect of 2000 years ago. The sentient consciousness of a person is called Psuche. And Psuche is translated soul. As such, you ARE a soul (psuche - person); the you that is you inside you. But Spirit (pneuma) means something else. On should be cautious, though, since there are no crisp edged dividing lines between these aspects of body soul(self) and spirit. All are woven as one.

in those days would be said to have been possessed or given to a spirit of anger

As is said in these days too.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The concept of the Trinity, which I believe is valid,

And which I believe is not valid.

What of the concept that the Emperor of Rome is a god?
While I don't believe that concept either, it would seem that the Emperors did.
So we (actually they, the early Church Fathers) were in quite a pickle when Constantine recognized that about half of his army were Christians, and that he needed to convert. Could the god emperor now worship a mere man called Jesus? Should the god emperor renounce his divinity?

And so from my reading, I recognize that Eusebius came up with a workaround - a "hack" ... the Trinity. Is it true? Likely not, but it DID work. And what's a little lie when compared to total oblivion of one's religion?

... consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.​

(John 11:50 KJV)​

Rhema

There are many who claim they do understand it and can explain it, I'm still waiting.

Christology? or the Trinity? The Trinity cannot be explained because it is irrational, and defies sane language. But who Christ is, that's an altogether different question.

 

[Rhema]

For example, the apostle John clearly tells us Jesus Christ is God.

Where?

(and remember, you said clearly...)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

People HATE when something can't be explained but the "most logical answer" can be found and understood by the human mind.
"In the beginning...." shows there was no Time until it started b/c of Him.

I'm tempted to be naughty and ask you to define Time.

And then there's my naughty habit of finding mirth from watching human minds trying to understand the General Theory of Relativity.

And the General Mirth from watching Kamala Harris try and explain anything.

Rhema
(Live long and perspire.)

 

[Rhema]

Originally Erasmus had excluded this passage from his editions of 1516 and 1519 because it was not in any of 5,000 Greek manuscripts but only in late manuscripts of the Vulgate

5,000 ???

Erasmus only used about 8 Grk mss. I'm not sure there even were 5,000 mss. in all the collections at that point in time.

it seems plausible that some overzealous copyist saw “there are three that testify” and decided to insert a little teaching of his own.

Happens more often than you think -

How can you say, "We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)​

Rhema

 

[First and the Last]

5,000 ???

Erasmus only used about 8 Grk mss. I'm not sure there even were 5,000 mss. in all the collections at that point in time.


Happens more often than you think -

How can you say, "We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)​

Rhema

Check this out very interesting

 

[First and the Last]

5,000 ???

Erasmus only used about 8 Grk mss. I'm not sure there even were 5,000 mss. in all the collections at that point in time.

that number shouldn't even be there sorry

 

[MedicBravo]

I'm tempted to be naughty and ask you to define Time.

And then there's my naughty habit of finding mirth from watching human minds trying to understand the General Theory of Relativity.

And the General Mirth from watching Kamala Harris try and explain anything.

Rhema
(Live long and perspire.)

We can define it and are subject to it.
God is not. He created Time.
We know the BBT is wrong. Our universe had a beginning and has a starting point.
Something can NOT come from Nothing.

Most of Creation is unknowable to the flawed, mortal human mind.

 

[MedicBravo]

Scripture please.

"Scripture please."
Many things can be learned from God and the Bible with it being spelled out word for word.
God, Jesus (the Son) and Holy Spirit.

Tri - three
une - pertaining to.

There's something called "inference" or "the most logical reason/conclusion".
Police and detectives (and others) have been using it for a long time in history.
Info can be gained by "What is there, what is not there. What was said and not said. What words were used and not used."

Cold cases are solved using this when the original people involved are dead and there's very little evidence.
The Bible refers to God's nature as a Triune being many times. In fact, it's one of the easiest and most simplest facts about Him.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Christ4Ever:

Unless you can get around the fact that Jesus used the same word "one" when he prayed to the Almighty God at John 17:21, in that case John 10:31-33 (and everything else in the book of John) will not help you. Remember, the Bible does not contradict itself. Notice how the Contemporary English Version of the Bible renders John 17:21, and this is Jesus praying to Jehovah the father.

Contemporary English Version
"I want all of them to be one with each other, just as I am one with you and you are one with me. I also want them to be one with us. Then the people of this world will believe that you sent me." (John 17:21)


See that? And I'm quoting from the same Bible book of John where Jesus said at John 10:30 "I and the Father are One." The context to John 10:30 tells us "one" is not the digit number 1 because dozens of disciples would not become a single human being when Jesus asked his heavenly father in prayer that his disciples should all be one. The context at John 17:21 is with reference to unity of purpose or being in agreement .


John 10:31-33 that you are relying on says the following, and this time I will quote from Holman Bible.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"[31] Again the Jews picked up rocks to stone Him. [32] Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. Which of these works are you stoning Me for?" [33] "We aren’t stoning You for a good work,” the Jews answered, “but for blasphemy, because You—being a man—make Yourself God.”" (John 10:31-33)


Here's your problem with relying on the words of those particular Jews who, by this point, were rebelling against Almighty God. You are relying on the twisted reasoning of people who killed their own Messiah to prove your point that Jesus is in a Trinity with the Father. Jesus never said he was God. That's what THEY claimed he was saying. In fact, Jesus contradicted them at John 10:36, as follows:


English Standard Version
"do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"


See that? Jesus reiterated to his accusers that he said he is God's son. Remember, these are the same rebellious Jews that wanted to kill Lazarus after Jesus resurrected Lazarus, because they viewed Lazarus' resurrection as a threat to their power structure when people began putting faith in Jesus due to Lazarus' resurrection.

John 12:9​

"Meanwhile, a large crowd of Jews got to know that he was there, and they came not only because of Jesus but also to see Lazʹa·rus, whom he had raised up from the dead.

John 12:10​

"The chief priests now conspired to kill Lazʹa·rus also,

John 12:11​

"since it was because of him that many of the Jews were going there and putting faith in Jesus."


Alter2Ego

Heavy Sigh. You are more alike to the Jews of the day and today, that reject Him, then you realize.

You state about me that I am relying on John 10:31-33 to support the Trinity. lol - what did I write to you when I mentioned those verses in my last post? Did you even see me mention the Trinity in what I wrote in that post? All I was showing you was what? Read my post on these verses to refresh your memory. Answer: I was letting Scripture do the talking. I did not interpose what I believed they were saying, but what was communicated by John on what was being said of Jesus according to their belief system.

Don't you realize that you are actually agreeing with them in their disbelief?

The problem which won't be resolved between us with any satisfaction on your part, is that you do not believe in a Hierarchy of the Godhead. Like the Jews they just could not comprehend this and saw it as if we were saying there are 3 Gods, which is not true then or now.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you a simple yes or no question. Which I am sure is really not so simple for you. But should clarify much for me and is not meant to trick you in anyway.

Do you worship God, and is God just the Father that you worship, and at no time do you worship God the Son Jesus/Yeshua?

With the love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. This thread has been allowed to exist for this discussion. I do want you to know that. At least if you haven't realized it already, and as I have warned others as well, I warn you. Do not go beyond here in expressing anti-trinitarian doctrine which is contrary to the statement of faith of Talk Jesus. (Moderator) \o/

 

[Charlie24]

Where?

(and remember, you said clearly...)

Rhema

With all due respect, Rhema, have you read and studied the Scripture long enough to gather a complete concept of who Christ actually is?

Both John and Paul tell us He is the Creator of the universe and you question is He is God?

 

[Curtis]

God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = one God.

Man is spirit, soul, and body = one man.

Somebody might say yea but God is three separate beings yet are one God, and man is not.

Man is three separate parts yet one man. The Word of God is the only power that can distinguish man’s spirit from his soul, and his body.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God distinguishes the Father, from the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Searchingtoo]

"Scripture please."
Many things can be learned from God and the Bible with it being spelled out word for word.
God, Jesus (the Son) and Holy Spirit.

Tri - three
une - pertaining to.

There's something called "inference" or "the most logical reason/conclusion".
Police and detectives (and others) have been using it for a long time in history.
Info can be gained by "What is there, what is not there. What was said and not said. What words were used and not used."

Cold cases are solved using this when the original people involved are dead and there's very little evidence.
The Bible refers to God's nature as a Triune being many times. In fact, it's one of the easiest and most simplest facts about Him.

Hmmm, still no scripture.

 

[MedicBravo]

Hmmm, still no scripture.

Your idea that "no scripture to prove my required specific answer" is your problem.

This idea that EVERY SINGLE second and action must have scriptural backing is absurd.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Your idea that "no scripture to prove my required specific answer" is your problem.

This idea that EVERY SINGLE second and action must have scriptural backing is absurd.

You're funny.

 

[Rhema]

Check this out very interesting

As I said, eight mss., as is listed in Wallace's one slide.

Glad you finally learned all this.

Wallace is one of world's foremost scholars in manuscript history, and his ministry can be found here:

The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts

www.csntm.org

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

that number shouldn't even be there sorry

I wondered if it was a typo...