Miracles?

[sorrow]

OK everybody, not that I don't believe in miracles but...

lets say the odds of surviving an operation are 1 in a hundred. Well... there is still the chance that the person is going to survive. So is it a miracle that the person survives if the person does survive? Absolutely not. He just got the positive side of the odds. We cannot assume that beating the odds is always a miracle, because that would imply there are really no odds, which is the most irrational, insane thing I'd've ever allowed myself to conceive. Completely pathetic to neglect the mathematical/probability functions of the universe.

That's like saying, if I roll two dice. The odds have been empirically proven that I will roll a seven at a 15% rate. And it is hardest to roll a twelve or a two. So, lets say I have one shot at rolling a twelve and I happen to get the twelve. Is that a miracle? No! I just got the odds I wanted. How is this situation with the dice any empirically different from the operation scenario?

There is no difference. There are just the odds and one chance. You'll find that if you undergone the operation and got 100 chances and had 100 lives, you'd only survive roughly one of them based on the statistics of other people's operations. If you can convince me that it was a miracle that I got to survive the operation, it is nothing more than beating the odds.

There are some things in life that we must accept can be scientifically proven that refute spiritual claims. For example, out of body experiences. Science is coming close to figuring out why we have out of body experiences. We can even induce people to having them at will.

We can explain why everything happens if we just put our minds to it. What would we prefer; a why that doesn't elaborate, or a why that allows us to go further and manipulate the potential of the answer.

eace:

 

[Property Of God]

When you believe in Miracles, you get a Miracle, that beats all the science and math in the world, that's common sense.

 

[Br. Bear]

If any man among you seem to be religious,
and bridleth not his tongue,
but deceiveth his own heart,
this man's religion is vain.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
James 1:26-27


Greetings sorrow,


Your post here indicates a decision to try to disprove miracles, or at least an attempt to confuse the subject.


I have had accidents in vehicles where there were no odds at all to survive, same with drugs, alcohol and other forms of abuse.

I asked "Why?"

I rejected all notion of miracles and God and especially Jesus.... I reached for the secret too soon, asking so many, many why's and used every method imaginable and dark to get an answer, the answer to, "Why?" and even cried for the moon.

I also had absolutely no odds in my favour to gain eternal life.... absolutely none, and I do not wish to brag about my disgusting ways before becoming a Christian, but there is no sane reason, scientific or not, humanly speaking, that the LORD should spare me... or even consider sparing me, and then, giving me His life and righteousness.

All I had to do was acknowledge my 100% need of Him and His gift of grace, and although scientists can not understand in scientifc terms how such a complete regeneration and transformation can occur, you ought to try it sometime.... it is life, Jesus Christ is the Lord.


Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear


Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


ps.... since you mention odds.... have you ever considered the odds of this world you call your country coming into existence with every intricate organism so intrinsically dependent and complimetary to each other in the perfect order of it all, able to survive without us indulgent people and sientistific formulae and statistics, and then asked scientifically with pure sane reasoning if it were possible?
When you're done writing out those odds in full, (you might need a few pencils) consider that the Lord who holds it all together for us ungrateful folk here on earth, emptied Himself and came to die for us!

I find that odd. Don't you?





Colossianns 1:12-20
Giving thanks unto the Father,
which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through His blood,
even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven,

and that are in earth,

visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones,
or dominions,
or principalities,
or powers:

all things were created by Him,

and for Him:

And He is before all things,

and by Him all things consist.

And He is the head of the body,
the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things He might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;

And,
having made peace through the blood of his cross,
by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself;
by Him,
I say,
whether they be things in earth,
or things in heaven.


Let this mind be in you,
which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who,
being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made Himself of no reputation,
and took upon Him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man,

He humbled Himself,
and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him,
and given Him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven,
and things in earth,
and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11

 

[sorrow]

There is always a chance of an outcome even if 1 in a hundred. To say that you got that 1 of a hundred by surviving is not a miracle, it is simply probability, which can be empirically proven.

Also, it would seem that all life would be nearly impossible to exist so complexly as it does now. But you forget that life relies on one another in order to survive. So when life evolves it can only evolve 1 way, so the odds are pretty darn good that this is the way it has to be.

 

[MiccyinFl]

There is always a chance of an outcome even if 1 in a hundred. To say that you got that 1 of a hundred by surviving is not a miracle, it is simply probability, which can be empirically proven.

Also, it would seem that all life would be nearly impossible to exist so complexly as it does now. But you forget that life relies on one another in order to survive. So when life evolves it can only evolve 1 way, so the odds are pretty darn good that this is the way it has to be.

Dr. Don R. Patton


Of course the assumption is that these things will add up to become greater changes. Small changes you can see over millions of years that you can't see will accumulate. Well, do they accumulate? That's an assumption we don't observe. And science is, of course, what we observe....

Can we test that [assumption]? I think we can. We look, for example, at drosophila and bacteria which multiply extremely rapidly. The drosophila... has a new generation every two weeks, whereas bacteria [have] a new generation every twenty minutes. And so we observe billions of generations of bacteria. Did they change? Not really, they're still drosophila, they're still three... kinds of bacteria that were observed... 300 years ago. [There is] some variation, yes - curly winged drosophila, different colored eyes. some variation observed in bacteria, certainly, but still three types and still a fruit fly. And we have a [relatively] long time that intervenes. Notice the statement by Michel Delsol, professor of biology at the University of Lyons writing in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE LIFE SCIENCES, 'If mutation were a variation of value to the species, then the evolution of drosophila should have proceeded with extreme rapidity. Yet the facts entirely contradict the validity of this theoretical deduction...

[And it is obviously theoretical - we don't observe it]

...for we have seen that the Drosophila type has been known since the beginning of the Tertiary period, that is for about fifty million years, and it has not been modified in any way during that time.'

Every two weeks, a new generation. Fifty million years according to them. Of course, I disagree with their time system.... But playing the game their way to see how it comes out, we say fifty million years and a new generation every two weeks - no change in any way. I think we see a challenge to that secondary assumption that says, 'Given enough time and enough generations it will add up [to a new species].'

 

[sorrow]

Drosophila do not need to change because they can already survive as they are within the conditions they have. Seriously guys, this is common sense.

 

[Br. Bear]

Why then are there new genera arising within their ranks and over 1400 species discovered so far?

I am a dew lover too... and being changed from glory to glory... how about you....
and I am not even one of them!

Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear

 

[seekingchrist]

Miracles is not to subject to be researched. When it happens in people's life (Like it happened to me) you will surely know that it happened because of god's grace and not by beating the odd's. Speaking of odd's as far as I know you are one person who does not believe in miracles but we are many who believe in them.
God bless all

 

[Holly Hobbie]

I am a walking miracle.....I was not supposed to live past the age of 5 I was not supposed to walk or talk if I learned to write it was supposed be block form.

I have tried to kill myself in the past a half dozen times . .I've never succeeded as you can tell.

I have by Gods miraculous power over come alot of disabilities and trials and will overcome my current trials with his miraculous power.

I believe in Miracles

 

[jari]

there are undeniable miracles such as dead becoming alive again.
if we think miracles only happen trough medical operations then it's playing with the odds on your mind.
but the miracles in the bible cannot be caused merely by luck.

 

[bruren777]

Miracles!

Miracles are around us all the time! Do you know that you you are a miracle? Just get any good medical book, look up the different systems of the body and how all the systems function to make the body work.

Did you know that the human brain is capable of performing more complex functions than a computer. We humans, however, only use a small percentage of our brains capacity to perform the tasks we do during our daily lives.

Look around you, look at the trees, flowers, grass. We live on planet earth, everything we need to sustain our lives. Planet earth is a part of the milky way galaxy, it is a vast system planets, of which the sun is the center provides light during the day, the moon and stars at night.

The universe has innumerable galaxies, the Hubble telescope has discovered galaxies previously unknown.

These are just a small number of miracles!

I could go on, but someone else can add to this!

 

[sister]

wrong

You are absolutely WRONG!!!!!Miracles happen every second of every day you are insulting Jesus,he is the same yesterday and forever and he did miracles then and NOW!!!You are putting him in a box!!You must not be filled with the Holy Ghost!!For you shall cast out demons,lay hands on the sick and they shall recover!!And by the way,I am a miracle!!I was on my deathbed last Nov. and I am hear to tell you Jesus heals!!I should of died,I had noooo blood left in me,kidneyfailure,liver failure,hepatitis,osteoporosis,osteoarthritis,no hair on my head!!And guess what I am here to tell you I feel 18 yrs old and I am 48yrs young!!But look 28yrs young!!And all my hair is restored!!No more Wigs!!thank you oh most Holy Jesus!!My GREAT physician, my GREAT healer!!So no odds here!!Jesus is Alive and in the healing miracle business!!And if you need more "proof" just come to my church where miracles happen all the time!!So, I pray that your analytical mind will leave and the wisdom and truth shall be known to you.Do not lean on your own understanding cause it will never work!!Live by and in the Spirit!!God Bless you!!Sister.

 

[sorrow]

The Earth is not a miracle. It is just rare, an anomaly. Humans are inevitable, because the conditions are there on Earth for us.

The universe is infinite. Does it not seem inevitable that we should exist?

 

[jiggyfly]

OK everybody, not that I don't believe in miracles but...

Since you have tried to explain what a miracle is not suppose now you try to explain what a miracle is, see how you do believe in miracles.

The Earth is not a miracle. It is just rare, an anomaly. Humans are inevitable, because the conditions are there on Earth for us.

If this be the case then how rare it earth?

The universe is infinite. Does it not seem inevitable that we should exist?

Should we decide inevitability based on theory?

 

[sorrow]

Since you have tried to explain what a miracle is not suppose now you try to explain what a miracle is, see how you do believe in miracles.

If this be the case then how rare it earth?

As rare as the fact we haven't found one quite like ours yet.

Should we decide inevitability based on theory?

Well... this theory is supported by objective evidence, not to mention the syntax of our minds works in such that we contrive infinity undoubtedly.

 

[sorrow]

You are absolutely WRONG!!!!!Miracles happen every second of every day you are insulting Jesus,he is the same yesterday and forever and he did miracles then and NOW!!!You are putting him in a box!!You must not be filled with the Holy Ghost!!For you shall cast out demons,lay hands on the sick and they shall recover!!And by the way,I am a miracle!!I was on my deathbed last Nov. and I am hear to tell you Jesus heals!!I should of died,I had noooo blood left in me,kidneyfailure,liver failure,hepatitis,osteoporosis,osteoarthritis,no hair on my head!!And guess what I am here to tell you I feel 18 yrs old and I am 48yrs young!!But look 28yrs young!!And all my hair is restored!!No more Wigs!!thank you oh most Holy Jesus!!My GREAT physician, my GREAT healer!!So no odds here!!Jesus is Alive and in the healing miracle business!!And if you need more "proof" just come to my church where miracles happen all the time!!So, I pray that your analytical mind will leave and the wisdom and truth shall be known to you.Do not lean on your own understanding cause it will never work!!Live by and in the Spirit!!God Bless you!!Sister.

Are you going to give any credit to your 'actual' physician.... you know... the one who everybody can objectively account for. And yes, congratulations for making it out, don't forget ofcourse that the reason why you feel younger is because you no longer have all these failures or damaged organs because your surgeon was able to fix these problems. The odds of surviving a kidney transplant are about 75% and the odds of surviving a liver transplant are about the same. In children the odds are even greater actually... just so you know. That's what science can do for you... isn't it wonderful. Again, I'm glad you feel better know.

 

[Sam_M]

Miracles exists

Its a miracle when God opens up the heart of an unbeliever and start to believe and follow God rather than our own self

 

[amadeus2]

The greatest miracle in my life occurred when I was drawn to God. I do not believe that the laws of probability apply in this case at all!

 

[sister]

still wrong!!

Im not sure who wrote back to me about my healing miracle,testimony but about the kidney healing,I had noooo surgery, I said Jesus healed them you need to read the testimony again the Drs. did nothing to my kidneys it was all Jesus!!And thanks to my Pastor who kept telling the Drs.we believe in miracles,and she will live!!And I Am!!Alive and well!!Thanks to Jesus!!AS I said before he is the same yesterday, today and forever, and he is still in the miracle business!!Wake UP!!I feel sorry for you not believing in miracles!! I hope you see and experience on e really soon!!Amen!!

 

[Phumba]

Sorrow

I think I know where the problem lies. I struggle with it myself, having a "logical mind" we try to use logic to figure everything out and that is our greatest downfall. God is infinite, we can't comprehend His scope and we certainly will not in this life achieve it. I almost lost my faith a couple of times because of my "pride?", I think I should call it.(Believing in my cranial abilities, believing I can figure out how God works!)

Just listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to you through your thoughts, experiences and your brothers and sisters in Jesus.

And you have to remember that faith is a choice, if you've made the choice to accept Jesus as your savior stick to your choice even when it becomes difficult, I sometimes think each individual is his/her own worst enemy.

Now for my testimony:

My second child were born with a heart defect, her heart rate would drop by half every 5 minutes (from 164 to 75 - 84) and the pediatrician sent the EKG to the heart specialists in Johannesburg getting everything ready to transfer her there.

She were not even a day old. Me and my wife prayed to the Lord to heal her and we asked all our friends and family to pray for her as well.

The next morning Janet (my wife) told the pediatrician not to bother sending Sarika (my newborn) to the specialists for she's been healed. The doctor started crying when she did a EKG on Sarika - her heart was beating fine. When the doctor asked Janet weather we prayed the whole night for healing, she calmly replied "No, I only prayed once and the Spirit told me she's healed"

Sarika is now 4 months old and as healthy as can be. That is a miracle if ever I saw one.