No Small Dissension

[Coconut]

I believe it is of crucial importance for everyone of us to understand this one thing, namely, the Holy Spirit does not teach or reveal anything to anyone, at anytime, that contradicts the written Word of God. Now if two should disagree on what 'is written', one or both may be wrong, but it stands to reason they both cannot be right.

That being said, this passage of scripture, written by an apostle, and himself crediting the Holy Ghost with its message ; "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us;" should be carefully read and acknowledged if we are going to discuss the 'law of Moses' and how it applies to us 'Gentiles'

Acts provides essential background information about the early churches Paul founded, and to whom he wrote his letters (epistles) One chaper in particular addresses the controversy about the 'keeping of the law' and tells us that
when they cannot resolve the dispute amoung them, Paul and some of the disciples went to Jerusalem to discuss it with the apostles and elders.

Act 15:1-32 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,

Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner;

The councils letter to Gentile believers;

The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

NOTE: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:


It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us,
to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

[Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.


This message of consolation and rejoicing is repeated over and over again in the letters of the apostles!

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Coconut: Would that your message could be posted on the church doors of all churches of the main line denominations that are caught in the web of legalism.

SLE

 

[jiggyfly]

Amen Coconut! GREAT JOB!
Romans 7:4-6
4*So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5*When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6*But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit.

New Year's morning I went to bed with a burden on my heart, I was awaken by the Holy Spirit a few hours latter. This is what He spoke to me. "If you are indebted to a financial institution for a certain amount and the debt is finally paid and the contract has been completely satisfied, do you continue to make payments? The old covenant was completely satisfied by shedding of Christ's blood."

 

[Toklatkate]

Lets look at some words from Jesus:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Mat 5:23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,
Mat 5:24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.
Mat 5:31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
Mat 5:44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Mat 5:45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?
Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus did not do away with the law.
He made it even stricter, or made a matter of the heart. We are not to concern ourselves with petty laws, but the LAW of God, which should be written on our hearts, as God desired from the beginning. The 10 commandments still stand, as do the words of Jesus.
Do not let the writings of Paul or anyone else take precidence over the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul was a man who was following Jesus, but also sometimes stated that he was giving his opinion.... but in the case of the discussion of circumcision for the gentiles, that was the issue, not that the whole law was to be thrown out. Paul was saying that physical circumcision was not a prerequisit to salvation through Jesus.
He was not saying that we are to disregard the 10 commandments.
If we were to disregard them, then Jesus Himself would have told us that, rather than to say the things that I quoted above.
Please remember that it is Jesus who is Lord.
Love In Christ,
Toklatkate

 

[jiggyfly]

(toklotkate) Jesus did not do away with the law.
He made it even stricter, or made a matter of the heart. We are not to concern ourselves with petty laws, but the LAW of God, which should be written on our hearts, as God desired from the beginning. The 10 commandments still stand, as do the words of Jesus.
Do not let the writings of Paul or anyone else take precidence over the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul was a man who was following Jesus, but also sometimes stated that he was giving his opinion.... but in the case of the discussion of circumcision for the gentiles, that was the issue, not that the whole law was to be thrown out. Paul was saying that physical circumcision was not a prerequisit to salvation through Jesus.
He was not saying that we are to disregard the 10 commandments.
If we were to disregard them, then Jesus Himself would have told us that, rather than to say the things that I quoted above

.

Here are some of Jesus' words also.
John 16:12-14
12*“Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13*When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14*He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me.

I think we all, including myself have a big need to have the Holy Spirit broaden our limited understanding of the Truth.

 

[Toklatkate]

.

Here are some of Jesus' words also.
John 16:12-14
12*“Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13*When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14*He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me.

I think we all, including myself have a big need to have the Holy Spirit broaden our limited understanding of the Truth.

jiggyfly
would you explain what your point is with this post I am quoting from, I would like to be sure what you are trying to convey.
Thanks,
In Christ,
Toklatkate

 

[SpiritLedEd]

The only place in the New Testament (that I know of) where Paul says that he is giving his own opinion is in 1 Cor 7:12FF. He says so explicitly in that citation. All of his other statements are to be taken as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

SLE

 

[califlower]

OBEDIENCE BRINGS BLESSINGS, not condemnation!

Toklatkate, that was worth framing. Honestly, you do have a knack for explaining scripture in terms that anybody can understand, even me. heh. YES! In a sense the law is stricter, written in our hearts, yet... also in Love so that we may learn to love one another, in as much as He loves us in mercy and grace.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Nobody here at TalkJesus that I've seen, has ever said this, or implied it, that "righteousness comes from the Law" when it comes obviously by Faith; but most certainly BLESSINGS arise from OBEDIENCE. Honoring your Almighty Father with obedience brings rewards that some people have never experienced and can't, because they won't submit to God's Will - and God's love and will are EMBODIED IN HIS LAW. As we learn more and more about our Lord, we find this to be true, especially His Children who really love him, in whom He truly dwells, the more we Love him and WANT TO OBEY HIM because of that, not because we are afraid of condemnation, or want "Righteousness" like we're something more special than others! We are not to obey God out of fear, and we have FREE WILL to do so, that's the spirit of this New Covenant with God - did He write these laws on your forehead? No. Or on your hand? No. He wrote them IN YOUR HEART, where you would find that Law, because that's where you LOVE THE LORD. Your heart! What a beautiful thing! God's Word is so incredibly intricate, and NEVER in conflict with itself! It only takes reading and deep prayer and understanding, and then you see it. These words aren't written randomly but with heavenly grace. But try to remember, yes, Paul was a man preaching to different audiences for different reasons and one sentence or fragment can't be expected to stand alone in scripture, as some sort of "law" as well - some people want to make Paul the writer of God's Law. He was an interpreter of God's law, discussing it in human terms. The Bible is so amazing, it all RELATES to itself, (self-referent) and takes tremendous patience to unravel and discover as the Truth from God. With patience and love, not fear, it comes. No real understanding can take place with nothing but the motivation of fear; it takes dedication and love in your heart to follow the Lord, and study His Word. It takes prayer to the Holy Spirit, for understanding, before reading as well.... it isn't "just words" that we can manipulate for our own purposes. The Law is the law; it is in black and white, and not written by Paul - BUT BY GOD. GOD TOOK HIS FINGER AND WROTE THOSE COMMANDMENTS, JESUS KEPT THEM, but now, you want to say He came to destroy them? It will take much more scripture than anyone has presented here to prove that one, that anybody said "Ignore the commandments" at any point whatsoever. In the spirit of true, rapturous love of God and our saviour Jesus Christ, followers of Him DO concern themselves with obedience in a highly active way, I've found, in fact - yes, it can turn to "legalism" - but that is UNRELATED to this. Totally unrelated; nobody is talking here about eating pork, or even the circumcision Paul is describing. Ten commandments. Only ten, is it that difficult? Anybody can test that theory empirically in their own lives. And, I'm having a lot of problems with this scripture below and how it relates whatsoever to this discussion:

John 16:12-14
12*“Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13*When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14*He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me."

Yes, we all know that we don't know, that "we'll all know the truth someday" (yes, in judgement, we'll be finding out how much we were sinning that we didn't even see, and how many wonderful things we did, but didn't know, either!) but does this in any way relate to righteousness through the law, the keeping of the law, the destruction of the law, Jesus obeying the Law Himself, or how we are to obey the Law, as He did, who is greater within us, whom we are to be like? I don't see that, or why this scripture was cut and pasted. "Christian" means CHRISTLIKE. Are we, or are we not, to behave as Christ? Not just in loving one another and forgiving one another for our tresspasses, but keeping things "on Earth as they are in Heaven"?
God bless you all for the search for truth here at TalkJesus, and in this thread.
In Christ,
CaliFlower :rose:

 

[Toklatkate]

obedience

The only place in the New Testament (that I know of) where Paul says that he is giving his own opinion is in 1 Cor 7:12FF. He says so explicitly in that citation. All of his other statements are to be taken as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
SLE

Ok, so I do not have the whole Bible memorized.... my point was really that we should take the words of Jesus, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, and GOD HIMSELF over the words of a purely human man.

Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the law.
He said to obey.
That was my point.
Toklatkate

 

[Mike]

Dear Jiggyfly . When you enter a house , say , peace be with you . If that peace is returned back unto you , then stay and bring a blessing unto that house . But if you say peace be with you , and peace is not returned back unto you , then take your peace and go from that place , even shaking the dust off your feet as a sign on Gods rejection of the lack of peace .

Those who recieve a Prophet , will also recieve a Prophets reward . If any wish to attain Righteousness under the the law , then so be it .

Jesus is the vine and we are the branches . Anything outside of the vine will be burned in the fire . Everything within the vine will remain . Outside of the vine , we can do nothing. Remain therefore in the vine so that we will bring forth good fruits , and this only by the Holy Spirit - Christ in us , The hope of Glory . Peace . Mike

 

[Chad]

Amen brother Mike. I choose GOD's Grace in Christ over anything else.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

1 Peter 5:10
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.