Post trib verse Pre trib question

[Dave M]

a good question IMO to ask is who is going to be left at the end alive, that is who survive the Armageddon, and enters into the 1,000 year rule in mortal bodies??

if the answer is believers then I don see how the post trib works?

if the answer is non believers I dont see how the pre trib works?

 

[Butch5]

There will be unbelievers who survive. There will also be believers that have been resurrected

 

[Dave M]

Zechariah 14
16. Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
17. And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

we can see the only people that are left going into the 1,000 rule of Christ are non- believers, meaning all the believers are gone with with Jesus as it states in Mathew 24

Mathew 24
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Butch5]

Zechariah 14
16. Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
17. And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

we can see the only people that are left going into the 1,000 rule of Christ are non- believers, meaning all the believers are gone with with Jesus as it states in Mathew 24

Mathew 24
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Where are the believers? Jesus returns after the trubulation. If He's here and only non believers are here where are the believers?

What about the apostles? Jesus told them that they would sit on thrones and judge the nations in His Kingdom.

 

[Dave M]

Where are the believers? Jesus returns after the trubulation. If He's here and only non believers are here where are the believers?

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

this is the same event that is talked about in Mathew 24 I believe and explains to me what is happening to any believers that have survived and or was raptured right before the event, I am not clear on the exact timing other then it is at the end


Mathew 24
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So we know that all who have died who are in Christ are returning with him

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.


Here we have the language "gather his elect from the 4 winds", to me and is accepted by many scholars to mean the earth, so we can see the believers (elect) are being caught up to meet Jesus in the air , I believe at this time they will be changed in a twinkle of the eye 1 Corinthians 15:52 receive there resurrected bodies, and return with Jesus

Matthew 24:30-31
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


this one to me sums it up best what will happen at the end, God will resurrect those who have fallen asleep first, then as returning to the earth, he will gather all believers who remain on earth up to him in the air to change them to resurrected bodies and then return to earth conquer everyone around his Holly City, those that are left are non- believers and will go into the 1,000 reign of Christ
1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16
15. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep
16. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

this is the same event that is talked about in Mathew 24 I believe and explains to me what is happening to any believers that have survived and or was raptured right before the event, I am not clear on the exact timing other then it is at the end


Mathew 24
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So we know that all who have died who are in Christ are returning with him

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.


Here we have the language "gather his elect from the 4 winds", to me and is accepted by many scholars to mean the earth, so we can see the believers (elect) are being caught up to meet Jesus in the air , I believe at this time they will be changed in a twinkle of the eye 1 Corinthians 15:52 receive there resurrected bodies, and return with Jesus

Matthew 24:30-31
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


this one to me sums it up best what will happen at the end, God will resurrect those who have fallen asleep first, then as returning to the earth, he will gather all believers who remain on earth up to him in the air to change them to resurrected bodies and then return to earth conquer everyone around his Holly City, those that are left are non- believers and will go into the 1,000 reign of Christ
1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16
15. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep
16. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Hi Dave,

I agree that it says they'll be caught up. However, if they're caught up with Jesus at His return, how are they returning with Him?

Paul speaks of Christ's return and calls it the Parousia. Are you familiar with the concept of the Parousia? This was when a king or warrior who was victorious in battle would return to his city or kingdom and the people would go to meet the returning king or warrior and accompany him back to the city. It was a kind of celebration. That Paul uses this term would seen to indicate that the believers will be caught up into the air the meet their returning King and accompany Him back to earth.

I believe a more accurate translation of 1 thess 4:14 would read, God is going to bring, through Jesus, those who have fallen asleep.

 

[Dave M]

Hi Dave,

I agree that it says they'll be caught up. However, if they're caught up with Jesus at His return, how are they returning with Him?

Paul speaks of Christ's return and calls it the Parousia. Are you familiar with the concept of the Parousia? This was when a king or warrior who was victorious in battle would return to his city or kingdom and the people would go to meet the returning king or warrior and accompany him back to the city. It was a kind of celebration. That Paul uses this term would seen to indicate that the believers will be caught up into the air the meet their returning King and accompany Him back to earth.

I believe a more accurate translation of 1 thess 4:14 would read, God is going to bring, through Jesus, those who have fallen asleep.

so you think believers in mortal bodies will enter the millennium ?

 

[Butch5]

so you think believers in mortal bodies will enter the millennium ?

I think resurrected believers and those who are 'changed in the twinkling of an eye' will enter the millenium.

 

[Dave M]

I think resurrected believers

so now the question which I ponder ,, will all believers be resurrected at the same time?? This particular scripture makes it clear those that lost there life for the Christ will for sure be going into the 1000 year rule, but then it becomes unclear to me is everyone who is a believer going to be resurrected at the fist resurrection and go into the 1000 rule of Christ, or do they not come to life until after the 1,000 year rule.

I am thinking the first resurrection is for all believers and the second resurrection is for non-believer but do not have scripture to support this theory YET.

The thing about the resurrection is I would think Jesus was the first, so just not clear to me yet

Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
.

 

[B-A-C]

You have part of the answer in Rev 20:4-6;

Those who came out of the tribulation reign with Jesus. But who do they reign over?
Also you mention two resurrections. So does the Bible. One for the righteous, and one for the wicked.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

...and this is just the millennial reign, have you stopped to consider what happens after the 1,000 years?

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

There will still be plenty of people who will reject Jesus even after the millennial reign. In fact there will be so many of them, it says they are numbered like the sand of the sea.
I wonder how many grains of sand are on the beaches of the world?

There will be a lot of blood spilt here.

Rev 14:20; And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

Now you are only reigning, if you're reigning over someone/something. If we are reigning with Jesus, ( Rev 20:6; ) then who are we reigning over? Other believers? Non-believers?

Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

So some people believe everyone will be wiped out during the tribulation, this obviously isn't true of Satan wouldn't have anyone to deceive after the millennial reign.
Some people believe all the unbelievers will be wiped out at Armageddon, but is this also true?

The New Jerusalem doesn't come down until after the millennial reign. But even then there are unbelievers on the earth.

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Who are these people outside the city who cannot enter?

Rev 22:2; in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

If we have new glorified bodies that no longer get sick or injured, who are these people that need "healing of the nations"?

I hate to mention it, but this is why some people believe in a "middle kingdom".
They believe many people will go to the Lake of Fire. They believe some people will go to heaven/the New Jerusalem.
But they believe there is a 3rd group of people that believe in Jesus, yet they didn't obey Him. They think these people will live forever on the Earth.
I don't believe this, there are too many scriptures that would break if this was true.

 

[complete]

a good question IMO to ask is who is going to be left at the end alive, that is who survive the Armageddon, and enters into the 1,000 year rule in mortal bodies??

if the answer is believers then I don't see how the post-trib works?
if the answer is non believers I don't see how the pre-trib works?

Revelation 20:1-6
(1) 'And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
...... till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
...... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
...... neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
...... but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Hi @Dave M,

The 1,000 years during which the Overcomers of the Tribulation period will be given the honour of reigning with Christ, is only the beginning of a much longer reign, isn't it? The Overcomers will be raised to reign with Christ at the beginning of the 1,000 years. They were martyrs,(Revelation 2:10), having been faithful unto death, they would receive a crown of life, and the second death would have no power over them; they will be priests unto God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. What an honour this was, for those who, like their Saviour, had been faithful unto death, they will now share in His glory. These are they which we see in Revelation 6:9,

(9) 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,
......... until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.'
(Rev 6:9-11)

* Nations will be living on the earth during this period, as can be seen by a reading of Revelation 20:7-10.

* This resurrection spoken of (above) is the former of two spoken of in these verses in Revelation 20, and is not the calling on high of Philippians 3:14, or the resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. No, the resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is not the resurrection of Revelation 20:6. It was never revealed in the Old Testament; but was a special revelation made by ' the word of the Lord' to Paul' and by Paul to the Thessalonian saints and to the Church of God.

* The resurrection of Revelation 20:6 is the well known 'former' of two resurrections, which had both been long the subject of revelation, and was the hope of Israel. The Holy Spirit spoke by the Psalmist, of the righteous dead who should 'have dominion' over the rest of the dead 'in the morning' of this resurrection (Psalm 49:14).. The Lord spoke of it when He called it 'the resurrection of the just' (Luke 14:14), 'the resurrection from (among) the dead' (,Luke 20:34-36) and the 'resurrection of life' (John 5:29). Paul spoke of it as 'the resurrection of the just' (Acts 24:15), for which the twelve tribes hoped, according to 'the promise made of God unto the fathers' (26:6-8). In Daniel 12:2 it is spoken of as a resurrection 'to everlasting life,' in which 'many' (not all) have part, and 'awake'.

Martha expressed her belief in 'the resurrection at the last day' (John 11:24); ie., the last day, at the end of the present age, and immediately before the introduction of the new age of the thousand years. Jesus said unto her, 'I am the resurrection and the life'. By this figure, the Lord distinguishes the resurrection for which Martha hoped, as the resurrection 'to everlasting life' (Daniel 12::2). He refers not to two things, but to one. It is as though He had said, 'I am the resurrection - yea, the one that is to eternal life; he that bellieveth on me, though he die, he shall life again; and everyone who thus liveth again in resurrection and believeth , shall in no wise die again for ever' (John 11:25-26).
No! He shall rise again in the first resurrection, and shall by no means die 'the second death.' That shall have no power over such.

It was for this 'better resurrection' that the Old Testament saints looked (Hebrews 11:35)., it was God's revealed promise to them. It's revelation was given quite irrespective of the Church of God: and it will take place as though the Church had never existed at all. (Ref. 'Commentary on Revelation' by E.W. Bullinger.)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave M]

Thanks Ray, I will have to digest this I appreciate the post.

Some people believe all the unbelievers will be wiped out at Armageddon, but is this also true?

Scripture seems pretty clear on this I do believe he speaking of Armageddon here, and the states there are survivors, (that would have to be non-believers) that seem to be on to be heading into the 1000 year kingdom of Jesus

Zechariah 14
16. Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
17. And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

a good question IMO to ask is who is going to be left at the end alive, that is who survive the Armageddon, and enters into the 1,000 year rule in mortal bodies??

if the answer is believers then I don see how the post trib works?

if the answer is non believers I dont see how the pre trib works?

I find it moderately funny how Christians continue to confuse the Rapture with the Second Coming....Look! At the rapture, the bride is caught up to meet Jesus in the air. At the second coming, Jesus returns to Earth, His feet touch the Earth....He then directs His angels to gather His people from the four corners of the Earth. They are NOT caught up, they are gathered together...When Jesus returns He is accompanied by an army of believers which is the bride.... Those are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS and cannot be overlapped to make one event...

 

[Dave M]

I find it moderately funny how Christians continue to confuse the Rapture with the Second Coming....Look! At the rapture, the bride is caught up to meet Jesus in the air. At the second coming, Jesus returns to Earth, His feet touch the Earth....He then directs His angels to gather His people from the four corners of the Earth. They are NOT caught up, they are gathered together...When Jesus returns He is accompanied by an army of believers which is the bride.... Those are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS and cannot be overlapped to make one event...

can you provide your stance with scripture ??

thanks

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

can you provide your stance with scripture ??

thanks

Rapture....
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 CJB
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; 17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
Second Coming

Jude 14-15 CJB
14 Moreover, Hanokh, in the seventh generation starting with Adam, also prophesied about these men, saying, “Look! Adonai came with his myriads of holy ones 15 to execute judgment against everyone, that is, to convict all the godless for their godless deeds which they have done in such a godless way, and for all the harsh words these godless sinners have spoken against him.”
Rapture

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 CJB
6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
Who is it that restrains the evil one? Its the One New Man spoken of in
Ephesians 2:15 CJB
15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom,
According to the bible, we do not know the day nor the hour of His "coming" yet once this happens we can predict almost to the minute when His second coming will take place....
Second coming

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here: At the rapture, the dead are caught up, and then the living, to meet Jesus in the air.
At the second coming, the believers are gathered together. No mention of the dead, and no mention of one before the other. There are many more verses by my mind is not too efficient today.

 

[Dave M]

: At the rapture, the dead are caught up, and then the living, to meet Jesus in the air.

would you agree this is when they get there resurrected bodies

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

would you agree this is when they get there resurrected bodies

Don't quote me on it but I do think so...God did not tell me..and truthfully I did not ask. I'm a bit pragmatic on that subject...I'm kind of attached to the one I have now. But yes....The rapture and the second coming are definitely two separate events.

 

[Dave M]

Don't quote me on it but I do think so...God did not tell me..and truthfully I did not ask. I'm a bit pragmatic on that subject...I'm kind of attached to the one I have now. But yes....The rapture and the second coming are definitely two separate events.

I would have to disagree based on the fact we have the church saints all through out the book of revelations.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I would have to disagree based on the fact we have the church saints all through out the book of revelations.

Yeah There is a lot of confusion here because of the way the churches teach it.First...The bride...She/he is the one who has made herself ready. She's the one who lives in the Word, according to the Word, She's the one who allows Jesus to live in her. The majority of Christians live according to their best judgement, according to how their church expects them to. They are not the bride although they are saved.
Second...All of those saved in the tribulation are saints too, including the Jews. So in the tribulation time, those saints who go into that period and those saved all are saints, and they're saints all the way to the end when Jesus comes back to take up His reign in the millenium...and saints forever.

 

[Dave M]

Don't quote me on it but I do think so...God did not tell me..and truthfully I did not ask. I'm a bit pragmatic on that subject...I'm kind of attached to the one I have now. But yes....The rapture and the second coming are definitely two separate events.

I am going to quote on it here is the thing I know the pre-trip rapture, I used to believe it, SO I know the theory is when Jesus returns to gather his church the dead in CHrist get there glorified bodies ,these are people that are in the church but have died and then those raptured who are alive get there glorified bodies and then they go to the wedding feast, all the church.

so here is the problem, we have people under the alter that are part of the church, that have not been resurrected, they will not get resurrected until after the tribulation is over are they going to miss the wedding??