Respectful Questioning

[SirWulfe]

Before I begin, whatever differences in faith we may have, those answering, and myself, I want it to be known: I never want to insult anyone. Each person has faith, or not, for a reason, and it is not my place to tell them they are right are wrong. I may agree, or disagree, but I will never tell someone their beliefs are wrong. Having said that, I also firmly believe constant questioning of one's own faith, through personal questioning, or with the help of another, can strengthen one's faith. So, with that out of the way, here goes:

It is my firm belief, blind obedience of faith, can be detrimental. Not only to the individual, but also to Man in general. This does not mean one cannot fully believe in God, of course.

 

[B-A-C]

How much should we trust God? Hmmm...

Psa 4:5; Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, And trust in the LORD.
Psa 31:6; I hate those who regard vain idols, But I trust in the LORD.
Psa 31:14; But as for me, I trust in You, O LORD, I say, "You are my God."
Psa 37:3; Trust in the LORD and do good; Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness.
Psa 37:5; Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, and He will do it.
Psa 56:11; In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid. What can man do to me?

Do we dare put more trust in ourselves than in God?

Psa 115:11; You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD; He is their help and their shield.
Psa 118:8; It is better to take refuge in the LORD Than to trust in man.

One of my wifes favorite verses... It is framed in our bathroom.

Prov 3:5; Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

Isa 31:1; Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help And rely on horses, And trust in chariots because they are many And in horsemen because they are very strong, But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the LORD!
Jer 17:7; "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD.

This does not mean one cannot fully believe in God, of course.

If we do not "fully" trust Him... how can we "fully" believe in Him? Can I tell you I believe in you, and tell you I don't fully trust
you at the same time?

It is my firm belief, blind obedience of faith, can be detrimental

Then who we should put our trust in, if not God? Ourselves?

 

[SirWulfe]

How much should we trust God? Hmmm...

Psa 4:5; Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, And trust in the LORD.
Psa 31:6; I hate those who regard vain idols, But I trust in the LORD.
Psa 31:14; But as for me, I trust in You, O LORD, I say, "You are my God."
Psa 37:3; Trust in the LORD and do good; Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness.
Psa 37:5; Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, and He will do it.
Psa 56:11; In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid. What can man do to me?

Do we dare put more trust in ourselves than in God?

Psa 115:11; You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD; He is their help and their shield.
Psa 118:8; It is better to take refuge in the LORD Than to trust in man.

One of my wifes favorite verses... It is framed in our bathroom.

Prov 3:5; Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

Isa 31:1; Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help And rely on horses, And trust in chariots because they are many And in horsemen because they are very strong, But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the LORD!
Jer 17:7; "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD.



If we do not "fully" trust Him... how can we "fully" believe in Him? Can I tell you I believe in you, and tell you I don't fully trust
you at the same time?

Trust is not dependance. I trust my father. I don't depend on him to provide. I trust my mother. I don't depend on her to provide


Then who we should put our trust in, if not God? Ourselves?

Why not trust ourselves? It is only through growth, do we begin to understand more. Being independent, does not mean we don't love, it does not mean we don't trust. It means, as much as we do love, and do trust, we don't require constant hand outs. We are all familiar with "Give a man a fish...." By following God blindly, we always require Him to give us fish. By learning to fish on our own, we can stand on our own two feet. Which would make God more proud, do you think? Watching us beg, and plead, for help and food, or watching us solve put own problems? God is the Father. Would you want your children constantly begging for stuff, even long after they should have matured? No, no one would. So, I trust God. When I have no hope, I turn to Him. However, I don't hang on every word, then beg for fish. I don't question God. I question Man's interpretation of God, which, I would think, is a base rule. Thou shalt have no other idols above me? (Paraphrased of course, since i can't remember the exact wording.) Well. Man's interpretation of God could be considered placing an idol above Him, could it not? By questioning, I would think, it shows I'm seeking the truth, not simply accepting what's olaced before me as truth. If it is as you said, we cannot trust Man, then truly, pastors and priests should be questioned, no? They may be God's messengers, but they are fallible. You wouldn't trust the word of a car salesman, on a vehicle you may only have for a few years. Why take such a casual attitude to your immortal soul?

 

[At Peace]

Why not trust ourselves?

Why not, indeed?
I trust that my obedience to God will result in my salvation being granted by God.

 

[SirWulfe]

Why not, indeed?
I trust that my obedience to God will result in my salvation being granted by God.

So trusting in myself, will lead to eternal damnation? Don't misunderstand. A blind obedience, or not, has nothing to do with trust and love in God, in my opinion. I believe you can love and trust, without needing complete reliance. That's my point.

 

[KingJ]

It is my firm belief, blind obedience of faith, can be detrimental. Not only to the individual, but also to Man in general. This does not mean one cannot fully believe in God, of course.

God never expected blind obedience. He gave us grey matter between our ears. Eyes, ears. Literally every part of us is geared to grasping the what and why of issues. It is cold. Yes, our body is cold and we can see wind. It is hot. Yes our body is sweating, we see no clouds and smell people who need a shower :happy:.

Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good
2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?
1 Cor 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

I don't see any blind obedience in those scriptures.

I do see people like Abraham have a kind of 'blind' trust in God when he went to sacrifice his son. This happens when you are fully convinced on God's goodness. This is why Abraham is a good example of the type of faith we need to have in God. If any think Abraham was blind, they just need to read Gen 18:16-33 to see how he had a rational discussion with God over Sodom's destruction. He grasped and agreed with God's decision.

 

[SirWulfe]

God never expected blind obedience. He gave us grey matter between our ears. Eyes, ears. Literally every part of us is geared to grasping the what and why of issues. It is cold. Yes, our body is cold and we can see wind. It is hot. Yes our body is sweating, we see no clouds and smell people who need a shower :happy:.

Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good
2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?
1 Cor 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

I don't see any blind obedience in those scriptures.

I do see people like Abraham have a kind of 'blind' trust in God when he went to sacrifice his son. This happens when you are fully convinced on God's goodness. This is why Abraham is a good example of the type of faith we need to have in God. If any think Abraham was blind, they just need to read Gen 18:16-33 to see how he had a rational discussion with God over Sodom's destruction. He grasped and agreed with God's decision.

That kind of encompasses my point. I question, not to second guess, but to explore. If I hand you a sandwich and say "Its ham." Do you trust me, or do you take a quick peek? Perhaps it's really turkey. Maybe I made a mistake? (No, I'm not comparing the Scriptures to a ham sandwich). My point is this: while I know people do take things on faith, and, for them, that is fine, I feel a bit of questioning is in order. I have always wanted to understand "take it on faith," but have never once been able to grasp the "why."

 

[Dave M]

That kind of encompasses my point. I question, not to second guess, but to explore. If I hand you a sandwich and say "Its ham." Do you trust me, or do you take a quick peek? Perhaps it's really turkey. Maybe I made a mistake? (No, I'm not comparing the Scriptures to a ham sandwich). My point is this: while I know people do take things on faith, and, for them, that is fine, I feel a bit of questioning is in order. I have always wanted to understand "take it on faith," but have never once been able to grasp the "why."

the more I study up on the bible the more my faith grows, all the prophesies fulfilled blows my mind and my faith grows big time !!

all the archaeology finds concerning the bible I look into my faith grows !!

then of course there is me and to look at the what God has done and its a closed deal I jump for joy and shout thank you God !!

 

[SirWulfe]

the more I study up on the bible the more my faith grows, all the prophesies fulfilled blows my mind and my faith grows big time !!

all the archaeology finds concerning the bible I look into my faith grows !!

then of course there is me and to look at the what God has done and its a closed deal I jump for joy and shout thank you God !!

And I never once want anyone to think I'm here to say "No, you're wrong." I'll always have certain issues, with religion in general, to be completely honest. I'm 28. I'll be 29 in a few months. I still have yet to find amswers that satisfy me. I've started the Bible. Honestly, i couldn't finish. I've talked to pastors and priests. I am happy, though, you have found the answers you wanted.

 

[Dave M]

this was a great read this morning that for some reason I thought would be helpful to the OP I hope you do not mind me posting it here

How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. Psalm 1:1-2

Godly men—men who follow God and whose lives are blessed by Him—pay no heed to wicked advice. They don’t identify themselves with those who mock God. Rather, they draw their inspiration from God’s instruction book. They learn what it says and their actions reflect what they learn. They take the time to meditate on it. They want to make sure God’s Word gets into their minds, filters down deep into the core of their being, and changes their motivations.

Godly men recognize there’s a battle for their minds. They refuse to rent head space to their adversary. 2 Corinthians 10:5 tells them to take “every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.” The world’s opinions fluctuate and mean little if they’re not aligned with God’s truth. The actions of godly men are always tied to what they believe.

Godly men recognize that dining at the Lord’s Table of Truth doesn’t allow for picky consumerism. There’s much to taste, and spending time completely engaged with God’s Word is the best way to be fully fed and entirely convinced that He has a personal plan for every new sunrise.

 

[Dave M]

And I never once want anyone to think I'm here to say "No, you're wrong." I'll always have certain issues, with religion in general, to be completely honest. I'm 28. I'll be 29 in a few months. I still have yet to find amswers that satisfy me. I've started the Bible. Honestly, i couldn't finish. I've talked to pastors and priests. I am happy, though, you have found the answers you wanted.

Keep searching brother it is well worth it,

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

 

[SirWulfe]

Keep searching brother it is well worth it,

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

I can't promise a love of Christianity (that's for another day), but I do look forward to the day I at least understand. That is my biggest reason for posing questions.

 

[B-A-C]

If we say.... God you're OK, but I know better than you do what's good for me. Are we in effect making ourselves God?
I know more than God does? If that's true, why even bother with God?

You asked about "blind" faith. I think that's really the only kind of real faith.

Heb 11:1; Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2; For by it the men of old gained approval.
Heb 11:3; By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

If faith is believing in something we can't see, and being blind is not being able to see...
To put this another way.... If I don't believe God until I have the answer right in front of me.... I can see it, I can touch it.
Did I really ever have faith at all?

I can't promise a love of Christianity (that's for another day), but I do look forward to the day I at least understand. That is my biggest reason for posing questions.

welcome to TalkJesus questions are encouraged.

 

[SirWulfe]

If we say.... God you're OK, but I know better than you do what's good for me. Are we in effect making ourselves God?
I know more than God does? If that's true, why even bother with God?

You asked about "blind" faith. I think that's really the only kind of real faith.

Heb 11:1; Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2; For by it the men of old gained approval.
Heb 11:3; By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

If faith is believing in something we can't see, and being blind is not being able to see...
To put this another way.... If I don't believe God until I have the answer right in front of me.... I can see it, I can touch it.
Did I really ever have faith at all?



welcome to TalkJesus questions are encouraged.

I never said we know more then God. What I asked (more or less) is what's wrong with a bit of independence. Blind faith is one thing. Blind, unquestioning, is another. Everyone here can, and I'm sure will, agree: man is fallible. Well, religion is presented by Man. You go to church, you go to Temple, you go to the Mosque, and you will find a fallible human giving their rendition (or the rendition decided on by the Church) of God's word. Now, by simply accepting what they say, aren't you leaving yourself open to hearing the wrong thing? It's like being told the Earth is flat, and never going to see for yourself. Whether the mistake was accidental, or intentional, doesn't matter. What matters is, by simply accepting, you leave yourself open to the wrong worship, if you will. You would then worship some thing other then God, whichn if memory serves, is breaking a fundamental commandment, is it not? Again, accidental maybe, but the rules are pretty straight forward, and as anyone who's every dealt with a cop before, not knowing you're breaking a rule, doesn't get you out of being in trouble for it.

 

[KingJ]

but the rules are pretty straight forward, and as anyone who's every dealt with a cop before, not knowing you're breaking a rule, doesn't get you out of being in trouble for it.

You are referring to a conscience from a working brain. Correct. It is the reason all mankind is accountable for their actions.

There are just two additional pressing issues.

1. Jesus

When we are confronted with the knowledge of Jesus, we are confronted with the knowledge of Jesus. We have to deal with it, please read my OP here: Why rejecting Jesus is a sin.

2. Consequence of Sin

We all sin 1 John 1:8. We may not all be grievous sinners. But all sin needs to be dealt with. Past sins, current sins and tomorrow's sins. How do you recompense for them? God wanted us to sacrifice animals in the OT. In the NT God wants us to accept Jesus 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Jesus came and died for sinners Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[At Peace]

So trusting in myself, will lead to eternal damnation? Don't misunderstand. A blind obedience, or not, has nothing to do with trust and love in God, in my opinion. I believe you can love and trust, without needing complete reliance. That's my point.

Will you trust a liar?
Does God lie?
Who else do you know, that you can rely on, who doesn't lie?
Doesn't it make sense to believe and trust the one telling the truth?
Or doesn't 'making sense' mean much to you either?

 

[Dave M]

repentance of sin is the way to grow in faith and really is the way to just start in faith, with out repentance I do not think one can begin to understand faith IMO